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[Angry Grimace]

After BFZ, I have serious doubts. I get that this is looking like the shakey-transition block between 3-set-blocks and 2-set-blocks, but they almost couldn't have done worse so far if they tried. If OGW is boring, this will go down as a low-point for the game, at least in my opinion.

Well on the plus side, Kozilek at least looks cool (Ulamog wasn't the problem with BFZ by any means) and Mirrorpool is almost certainly Standard playable (Dig Through Time twice for 6 mana is probably good)

Also, apropos of nothing, I really like the card Ob Nixilis Reignited. Not for any particular reason, I just find all of his abilities fun and powerful.

 

[charlequin]

There'll be a third. It just won't be in this block.

Emrakul is totally the creepiest because her brood transforms the landscape into flesh and bone, so some creepy Hellraiser shit.

that said, making colorless act like a sixth color is such a splashy idea i think it could have carried two sets, and it makes me wonder why wotc even fucked around with devoid in the first place.

One of the problems R&D have always had is coming up with small set mechanics that are splashy and cool but actually work well in a small set. Colorless mana costs are actually a great choice for that since they're conceptually very simple, so they don't add too much comprehension complexity, but they're splashy so they make revealing the set exciting.

After BFZ, I have serious doubts.

This is hardly the first bad set in Magic's history. I'd find a doom and gloom narrative more compelling if we weren't coming off a really good block.

If OGW is boring, this will go down as a low-point for the game, at least in my opinion.

The objective low-point for MTG is when Homelands came out and then there was an eight-month wait for another set that was seen as a do-or-die moment. This isn't even close.

Also, apropos of nothing, I really like the card Ob Nixilis Reignited. Not for any particular reason, I just find all of his abilities fun and powerful.

The Planeswalkers in BFZ are really great even if the set as a whole is 💩

 

[OnPoint]

Well on the plus side, Kozilek at least looks cool (Ulamog wasn't the problem with BFZ by any means) and Mirrorpool is almost certainly Standard playable (Dig Through Time twice for 6 mana is probably good)

Also, apropos of nothing, I really like the card Ob Nixilis Reignited. Not for any particular reason, I just find all of his abilities fun and powerful.

I'm with you. Kozilek does look cool, I like Twolamog enough and I just got my foil Ob Nixilis in the mail this week.

This is hardly the first bad set in Magic's history. I'd find a doom and gloom narrative more compelling if we weren't coming off a really good block.

The objective low-point for MTG is when Homelands came out and then there was an eight-month wait for another set that was seen as a do-or-die moment. This isn't even close.

"A low point", not "the low point". You're not telling me anything I don't know. I was playing when Homelands was standard (read: Type 2) legal. Nemesis/Prophecy were also real bad.

Also I'm not trying to say the game is doomed. I just have little in the way of faith for OGW.

 

[y2dvd]

Why play Kozilek over Ulamog? Ulamog protects itself for free, immediately affects the board and can't be chumped by two squirrels.

Kozilek conditionally protects itself, sure, but the deck running it has basically nothing but ramp spells which are sort of useless once you've put Kozilek or Ulamog on the battlefield.

You could potentionally replace 7 cards which is a huge deal, unless I'm reading the text wrong. If you don't find a Sanctum to sac and search for another Ulamog, you're hand gets really low. Plus having more threats against Infinite Obliteration is nice. The mana base will be weird with the 2 waste being required, but I assume you cam get away with running less Sanctum as you're banking on refilling your hand with. Kozilek.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I don't understand the logic that they should have used <> instead of devoid. Why wouldn't a 1RC card be labeled as devoid in addition to having <> in the cost? Plus, if they wanted to have a large number of Eldrazi-flavored colored cards that didn't require <>, they'd still have to be devoid.

 

[Xis]

Am I the only person who likes BFZ? I know it's weird and janky, but that's way more interesting than the boringness of DTK.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You could potentionally replace 7 cards which is a huge deal, unless I'm reading the text wrong. If you don't find a Sanctum to sac and search for another Ulamog, you're hand gets really low. Plus having more threats against Infinite Obliteration is nice. The mana base will be weird with the 2 waste being required, but I assume you cam get away with running less Sanctum as you're banking on refilling your hand with. Kozilek.

I doubt they'd change the mana base at all. 4 Sanctum and 4 Shrine is already plenty of colorless mana.

I don't understand the logic that they should have used <> instead of devoid. Why wouldn't a 1RC card be labeled as devoid in addition to having <> in the cost? Plus, if they wanted to have a large number of Eldrazi-flavored colored cards that didn't require <>, they'd still have to be devoid.

Because Devoid barely does anything

 

[charlequin]

You could potentionally replace 7 cards which is a huge deal, unless I'm reading the text wrong. If you don't find a Sanctum to sac and search for another Ulamog, you're hand gets really low. Plus having more threats against Infinite Obliteration is nice. The mana base will be weird with the 2 waste being required, but I assume you cam get away with running less Sanctum as you're banking on refilling your hand with. Kozilek.

Sanctum makes colorless mana for the <><> cost though...?

Am I the only person who likes BFZ?

Just about, yes.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Because Devoid barely does anything

There's a bunch of synergy cards, not many payoff cards though. Enough to build decks around in UR and BR limited.




Rules question: would the text "cast this permanent as if it were a nonland permanent" work on a land?

Land - Island Plains

Keyword ability U/W U/W (You may cast NAME as if it were a nonland permanent for the Keyword ability costs. If you do Name counts as a spell while on the stack and NAME does not count as a land played this turn.)
Named comes into play tapped. If name was cast untap it

 

[sgjackson]

One of the problems R&D have always had is coming up with small set mechanics that are splashy and cool but actually work well in a small set. Colorless mana costs are actually a great choice for that since they're conceptually very simple, so they don't add too much comprehension complexity, but they're splashy so they make revealing the set exciting.

yeah i totally get that - i literally almost said in my post "devoid feels a lot like the lame small set mechanic designed to synergize with colorless mana costs." - and it makes sense that r&d would want to have a cool, splashy mechanic for a small set to prove that their new block structure was a cool idea.

maybe i'm ascribing too much credit to r&d's ability to determine how good a set will be during design/development (a lot of this is based on how maro has talked about scars block), but i feel like if bfz design was going poorly it would be more important to just get a functional set out the door and leading with <> mana seems like the path of least resistance to do that. soi seems like a good place to put more effort into a small set - you'd have a modern two block set under your belt to work off of, and innistrad is really only fondly remembered for the first set, so if you nail the second set it's really exciting.

 

[y2dvd]

I'm so confused. So waste is coloress and not a "6th" mana per say?

 

[sgjackson]

I'm so confused. So waste is coloress and not a "6th" mana per say?

somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but here's how i understand it

costs that don't have a color requirement (like the (6) in a (6)(g)(g) casting cost) have a generic mana cost, which can be paid for with mana of any color.

whereas a card like sol ring or kozilek's channeler that generates some amount of mana with no color associated makes what is considered colorless mana, which can be used to pay for generic mana or now colorless mana.

<> can only be paid for with colorless mana, and not any color of mana like a generic mana cost. the distinction between generic mana and colorless mana has been unclear because they both use a number inside of a circle.

 

[Angry Grimace]

There's a bunch of synergy cards, not many payoff cards though. Enough to build decks around in UR and BR limited.




Rules question: would the text "cast this permanent as if it were a nonland permanent" work on a land?

Land - Island Plains

Keyword ability U/W U/W (You may cast NAME as if it were a nonland permanent for the Keyword ability costs. If you do Name counts as a spell while on the stack and NAME does not count as a land played this turn.)
Named comes into play tapped. If name was cast untap it

No, it would fundamentally break the rules to cast a land.

 

[charlequin]

maybe i'm ascribing too much credit to r&d's ability to determine how good a set will be during design/development (a lot of this is based on how maro has talked about scars block), but i feel like if bfz design was going poorly it would be more important to just get a functional set out the door and leading with <> mana seems like the path of least resistance to do that.

It's all just a scheduling issue ultimately. I don't remember who talked about this (it might be in one of the Killing a Goldfish reviews?) but whoever it was made a really good point: Magic actually has pretty much the strictest deadline of any creative product (other than, like, COD/AC-type 10m+ selling annualized AAA videogames.) When they lose time, they can't really get it back.

Every time they lose time, it winds up causing some issues. Scars of Mirrodin is goofy in part because they came up with the concept super-late (originally it was New Phyrexia block) and so the first set was kind of half-baked and overly conservatively developed. Avacyn Restored is doubly godawful for this, since they threw out the original set concept late in the process and then threw out the major mechanics right at the end of design. Even Theros has it a bit with a badly-thought-out block plan since it was a late substitution for another idea.

BFZ is basically the ultimate example of this. For a variety of reasons they lost a ton of time in design, so they had to basically hand over what they had and then development had to salvage it. The result is something that is certainly much better than it would've been without the development pass, but which has all kinds of conceptual rough edges and some major gaps. I think if they came in with everything in shape and time to spare the block would break up differently than it does, but given the situation I don't think there was ever a time when "well let's move the mechanics around" was a super viable plan.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

No, it would fundamentally break the rules to cast a land.

Does it?

The only rule I found that could allude to that is

300.2a An object that&#8217;s both a land and another card type (for example, an artifact land) can only be played as a land. It can&#8217;t be cast as a spell.

There is a rule that says lands are put into play, but not worded in a way that would null permission given by a keyword ability.

I found a name for the keyword ability, Rampy Fixy.

 

[ultron87]

I don't think they'd want lands to end up on the stack. Probably something weird with that. Could probably just make it an ability on the land like the Cycling lands have.

IE Reveal this card and pay X: Put {card name} onto the battlefield tapped. Activate this ability only when you could cast a sorcery.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think I'm gonna start pulling out tokens that don't belong to my deck out of my deckbox and putting them on top of it right before each match from now on.

 

[ultron87]

Because Devoid barely does anything

It's just a replacement for "Tribal Eldrazi" and it does that just fine.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I don't think they'd want lands to end up on the stack. Probably something weird with that. Could probably just make it an ability on the land like the Cycling lands have.

IE Reveal this card and pay X: Put {card name} onto the battlefield tapped. Activate this ability only when you could cast a sorcery.

But then they couldn't be countered which is part of the point. Hence the "counts as a spell when on the stack".

It's an idea to make a land part ramping, part fixing, part triggering effects, with the downside of being counterable among other things.

Another weird idea

Free Forest

Land

When NAME enters the battlefield you may pay {G}, if you do it does not count as a land played until end of turn.
NAME comes into play tapped.
NAME can be the target of spells or abilities as if it were a creature, enchantment, artifact, planeswalker and or nonland permanent.

Tap to add {G} to your mana pool

 

[kirblar]

BFZ is basically the ultimate example of this. For a variety of reasons they lost a ton of time in design, so they had to basically hand over what they had and then development had to salvage it. The result is something that is certainly much better than it would've been without the development pass, but which has all kinds of conceptual rough edges and some major gaps. I think if they came in with everything in shape and time to spare the block would break up differently than it does, but given the situation I don't think there was ever a time when "well let's move the mechanics around" was a super viable plan.

I kinda fundamentally disagree on this- I think Development was always going to have to salvage the Eldrazi side of the set from Rosewater because Rosewater spent all of design chasing bad ideas down that were fundamentally wrong for the Eldrazi.

 

[charlequin]

I kinda fundamentally disagree on this- I think Development was always going to have to salvage the Eldrazi side of the set from Rosewater because Rosewater spent all of design chasing bad ideas down that were fundamentally wrong for the Eldrazi.

I mean, yes that is a true problem, but the set's problems really don't begin and end with the Eldrazi -- the Zendikar side is more appealing and less off-message but it's still full of bizarro stuff like Converge that is just clearly not thought through all the way. When you have a basically coherent set design whose biggest problem is one really bad idea mechanical theme and development has time to completely work on and polish it without having to finish design's job you don't get BFZ, you get, like... Champions of Kamigawa.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, yes that is a true problem, but the set's problems really don't begin and end with the Eldrazi -- the Zendikar side is more appealing and less off-message but it's still full of bizarro stuff like Converge that is just clearly not thought through all the way. When you have a basically coherent set design whose biggest problem is one really bad idea mechanical theme and development has time to completely work on and polish it without having to finish design's job you don't get BFZ, you get, like... Champions of Kamigawa.

Converge was a dev add, which...yeah, makes 0 sense, and I blame the "must do 10 archetypes!" thing in large part for this.

 

[bigkrev]

I finally watched a full match of Modern Lantern.
I'm in love.

 

[Crocodile]

Converge was a dev add, which...yeah, makes 0 sense, and I blame the "must do 10 archetypes!" thing in large part for this.

UG is supposed to be the "Converge Deck" but it honestly doesn't play like that in limited. It's either UG good stuff or just a random mush deck. It was an odd direction that didn't really work all that well. I mean individual cards like Painful Truths and what not are powerful enough and see some constructed play but those cards do feel very out of place.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Converge makes sense if the set is supposed to be about Colorless Eldrazi vs 5-color Allies.

 

[charlequin]

Converge was a dev add, which...yeah, makes 0 sense, and I blame the "must do 10 archetypes!" thing in large part for this.

Right, my thesis is that we would have had a tsundere set with screwed up Eldrazi if design had turned over a fully-baked file and we have a crummy one (that still has screwed up Eldrazi) because they didn't.

 

[Ashodin]

Blew up the FNM commander tournament with Odric Knight beastmode deck.

Hero of Bladehold came out turn three and all was lost after Odric joined turn four.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Am I the only person who likes BFZ? I know it's weird and janky, but that's way more interesting than the boringness of DTK.

Yes. Yes, you are.

 

[Yeef]

Am I the only person who likes BFZ? I know it's weird and janky, but that's way more interesting than the boringness of DTK.

No. In my neck of the woods, at least, the set is extremely popular for limited play (though way down on constructed play). Personally, I think it's fine. it has some issues, but as a draft format I'd put it just slightly below triple Theros.

 

[y2dvd]

somebody correct me if i'm wrong, but here's how i understand it

costs that don't have a color requirement (like the (6) in a (6)(g)(g) casting cost) have a generic mana cost, which can be paid for with mana of any color.

whereas a card like sol ring or kozilek's channeler that generates some amount of mana with no color associated makes what is considered colorless mana, which can be used to pay for generic mana or now colorless mana.

<> can only be paid for with colorless mana, and not any color of mana like a generic mana cost. the distinction between generic mana and colorless mana has been unclear because they both use a number inside of a circle.

Ah ok. I skimmed through the official pic that actually explained it haha. Anyways I think the rest of what I posted still stands. The possibility to draw 7 cards is gonna be great. Often, you're dumping your hands full of mana ramps to get to Ugin/Ulamog. I rarely have more than 2 cards in hand by the time I can play the big stuff. Being able to refuel and have another threat alongside Ulamog is nice. Probably a 1-2 of in the current ramp deck. An uncounterable Dragonlord's Prerogative more or less. The discard, counter thing will probably be a miss most of the time, but that's just icing on the cake if you can counter something.

 

[Man God]

The objective low-point for MTG is when Homelands came out and then there was an eight-month wait for another set that was seen as a do-or-die moment. This isn't even close.

Homelands was so awful. Those packs eventually became extremely cheap so I ended up with a ton of them though.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Am I the only person who likes BFZ? I know it's weird and janky, but that's way more interesting than the boringness of DTK.

I played around 20 drafts of M15, which is a pretty average set. I liked KTK so much that I signed up for MTGO because four drafts a week at my LGS wasn't enough for me.

I've played two actual drafts of BFZ.

 

[WanderingWind]

A team of Norwegian scientists have conclusively proven that BFZ is the worst set Wizards of the Coast (Wizards of the Fjord, in their native tongue) created in the modern era of Magic: the Gathering. The report is long and boring, but it concludes a 14-point data set that proves, without shadow of a doubt that Battle for Zendikar is - and I'm quoting directly here - "just the literal worst."

Sorry, Xis. Can't argue with scienticians.

 

[Royal_Flush]

But then they couldn't be countered which is part of the point. Hence the "counts as a spell when on the stack".

It's an idea to make a land part ramping, part fixing, part triggering effects, with the downside of being counterable among other things.

Another weird idea

Free Forest

Land

When NAME enters the battlefield you may pay {G}, if you do it does not count as a land played until end of turn.
NAME comes into play tapped.
NAME can be the target of spells or abilities as if it were a creature, enchantment, artifact, planeswalker and or nonland permanent.

Tap to add {G} to your mana pool

Why not make it a sorcery? Ok, that doesn't work. How about a split card?

The Land
Sorcery (0)

Cast ~ only if you could play a land.

Split Second

Put a Forest Land Token onto the battlefield tapped. You can play one land less this turn.

------

The Addition
Sorcery (1G)

Put a Forest Land Token onto the battlefield tapped.

 

[Crocodile]

Surge = If you or a teammate has cast a spell this turn, you can cast this spell for its Surge cost. Some spells like this get a bonus if you surge it. Surge will appear in more than just Blue but not all 5 colors. It will also appear on creatures. Will be a mechanics on every rarity.

 

[Santiako]

teammates mechanic! The card looks quite powerful. Instant EDH staple lol.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Surge = Fixed Storm

 

[Firemind]

Why would Crush of Tentacles return all nonland permanents to their hands? It's not quite Pin to the Earth but... I yearn for the days where cards actually did what it says on the tin.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Why not make it a sorcery? Ok, that doesn't work. How about a split card?

The Land
Sorcery (0)

Cast ~ only if you could play a land.

Split Second

Put a Forest Land Token onto the battlefield tapped. You can play one land less this turn.

------

The Addition
Sorcery (1G)

Put a Forest Land Token onto the battlefield tapped.

Not the same, anyway new idea I think could actually work


Illusionary Island

Land

NAME comes into play tapped and you may play an additional land this turn.
When NAME leaves the battlefield return target land you control to its owner's hand.
When NAME becomes the target of a spell or ability sacrifice it.

T: add {U} to your mana pool

 

[Yeef]

NAME comes into play tapped and you may play an additional land this turn.
When NAME leaves the battlefield return target land you control to its owner's hand.
When NAME becomes the target of a spell or ability sacrifice it.

The way this is worded, you can play an extra land every turn. The additional land thing needs to be a separate ability to work properly. "IF ~ entered the battlefield this turn, you may play an additional land this turn."

Regardless, this is busted; especially if it's meant to be a full cycle. You can turn 1 play every one of these in your hand plus another land then turn 2 untap and have a million mana.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Why would Crush of Tentacles return all nonland permanents to their hands? It's not quite Pin to the Earth but... I yearn for the days where cards actually did what it says on the tin.

I'm imaging a Call of Cthulhu type scenario, where these dudes are out in their boat and then all of a sudden, this tentacle monster start grabbing them and they're like "oh shit oh shit oh shit" and they ram their boat into the Cthulhu to stun it and then GTFO of there, and then after everyone has left, the Cthulhu just decides to chill there for a while "like sup, I'm on the board now".

 

[Yeef]

You guys are reading the name wrong. The octopus is tsundere and scares everyone away even though all it really wants is affection.

 

[y2dvd]

teammates mechanic! The card looks quite powerful. Instant EDH staple lol.

If it's free for all, anyone can be considered a teammate?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The way this is worded, you can play an extra land every turn. The additional land thing needs to be a separate ability to work properly. "IF ~ entered the battlefield this turn, you may play an additional land this turn."

Regardless, this is busted; especially if it's meant to be a full cycle. You can turn 1 play every one of these in your hand plus another land then turn 2 untap and have a million mana.

Oh yeah mistakes were made but wasn't intended as a cycle illusion eff&#275;cts are blue.


Illusionary Island

Legendary Land

NAME comes into play tapped.
If NAME entered the battlefield this turn, you may play an additional land this turn.
When NAME becomes the target of a spell or ability sacrifice it and return a land you control to its owner's hand.
{T}: add {U} to your mana pool

 

[The Technomancer]

If it's free for all, anyone can be considered a teammate?

No, teammate specifically refers to either being partners in THG or Emperor. Although...do allies in Star count as teammates? I'm not sure

 

[WanderingWind]

I am irrationally upset they're making a core mechanic revolve around 2HG and EDH. I know I shouldn't be, but I do not like it. Nerp. I do not like it one bit. The spike in me is having some rustling jimmie issues at the moment.

 

[Firemind]

I wouldn't mind the mechanic if we actually had some Storm cards. Where are the red rituals?

 

[Santiako]

If it's free for all, anyone can be considered a teammate?

No, but a cheap spell plus that leaving all the board clear except for a big bad octopus is really great.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I had been hoping for a while for a "stormcraft" mechanic that makes spells stronger if you cast another spell this turn, and surge combines that with both teammates and cost reduction, which is pretty neat. Plus, Crush of Tentacles plus a 0-cost artifact (like a Hangarback Walker) seems really strong. When they say it's not in every color, I'm expecting black to be left out due to it having no Oath-er. I would say that it's focused in red and blue, but this block has been weird about what mechanics are centered in what colors.

And I agree, the proper reading of the name results in a card where Octo-chan just wants to reach out to Eldrazi-senpai, but everyone runs away, and if you pay the surge cost, she's left sitting there going, "S-Senpai ;_;"

 

[charlequin]

I am irrationally upset they're making a core mechanic revolve around 2HG and EDH.

I mean, it doesn't really. It's just a regular spell mechanic (cheaper cost with bigger effect if it's your second spell of the turn) that's worded in a way to make it work well in team games. You can just elide the "or a teammate" part of the text and judge the mechanic that way.