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Magic: the Gathering - Battle for Zendikar |OT| Lands matter (but nothing else does)

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Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";178465004]Tony's Pizza in Little Italy > all of New York's pizza.

Come at me.[/QUOTE]
Okay. You're wrong.

Snapcaster that back.

You're double-wrong.
 
I was thinking about going after all since apparently only a couple dozen people prereg'd for the PPTQ and I thought it was a good chance to spike one, but people keep dropping out of matches halfway on cockatrice so I can't get any practice :/

One dude even called me a cheating motherfucker because I drew more than one card off the top of my library then left. I plussed nissa and activated Jace, which I tried to explain -_-

It's not like Cockatrice doesn't keep a log of every action or anything...

Guess it's just farmer's market and lazy MGSV grinding this weekend.

Okay. You're wrong.

Snapcaster that back.

You're double-wrong.

Half my family is from the East Coast so I'm over there in NY every other year or so. Wasn't impressed :p

Now those cheese steaks on the other hand...
 
If this is true the remainining rares and mythics need to carry the set , because the set is very meh right now, and I can't see them pushing a bunch of uncommons as constructed all stars

Yeah, I mean, it's not like that's happened before recently:
Monastery Swiftspear
Valorous Stance
Treasure Cruise
etc

I mean, it's not impossible, but it's highly unlikely.
 

bigkrev

Member
It struck me recently just how few sets in the last couple of years I liked. I came back with Magic 2011, and I basically loved every single set up till Avacyn Restored. Back then, it felt like a blip though, because we then got Magic 2013 and Return to Ravnica, which were awesome sets right after it. Gatecrash was a set that grew on me over time, but man, Dragon's Maze was the beginning of a really bad stretch of Magic. I actually liked Magic 2014 for Limited, but understand that it's a really bad format by most measures. I didn't like the entirety of Theros block, I hated M15, I liked Khans, I hated the rest of the block, I hate Magic Origins, and I really hate what Battle for Zendikar looks like right now.
 

Daedardus

Member
Okay, this I don't really get. Does "all the good things" in Zendikar mean enemy fetchlands?

I'm more talking design and flavor wise. I can't really judge about the total power quality of the set, but it just doesn't feel like the adventurer's world of Zendikar anymore and the Eldrazi are a bit of a letdown. Of course they can't re-use every mechanic as that would mean we would get a same set, but I certainly miss Level-up. Awakening feels like a poor man's Kicker and I just don't know what the purpose of Converge is in this set. Would feel more at home in Alara Reborn.
 

kirblar

Member
I'm more talking design and flavor wise. I can't really judge about the total power quality of the set, but it just doesn't feel like the adventurer's world of Zendikar anymore and the Eldrazi are a bit of a letdown. Of course they can't re-use every mechanic as that would mean we would get a same set, but I certainly miss Level-up. Awakening feels like a poor man's Kicker and I just don't know what the purpose of Converge is in this set. Would feel more at home in Alara Reborn.
Bookmarking for reference because this is good.

I am going to be writing so many words on this. :(
 
They always said they were saving the full art basic lands for a set that needed it. Do you think they started with them in the set or went oh shit at some point and added them to save it?

No these I'm pretty confident went in exactly the way they said -- they wrote a list of stuff on the board and they were at the top of that list. I think they just dissembled somewhat about their actual reasoning for not doing full-art lands more often.
 

kirblar

Member
Full-Art/Expeditions were obvious throwbacks to Zen 1 - I think the expeditions probably got in part because of fetches not being in the set, as the Priceless Treasures thing wouldn't be something players expected to come back.
 

alternade

Member
Jeez, the way some of you are acting you would swear they been previewing nothing but Homelands reprints. That said, magic as a whole has been on the down slide for me ever since theyade the decision to pander to newer players, make the game "easier", and more creature focused. Honestly, spells are only good for drawing cards and killing creatures now.

I quit standard a year ago and haven't looked back. Feels so good not to caught in the money sink spiral.
 

kirblar

Member
Jeez, the way some of you are acting you would swear they been previewing nothing but Homelands reprints. That said, magic as a whole has been on the down slide for me ever since theyade the decision to pander to newer players, make the game "easier", and more creature focused. Honestly, spells are only good for drawing cards and killing creatures now.

I quit standard a year ago and haven't looked back. Feels so good not to caught in the money sink spiral.
I'm personally reacting like this because this set is the first in a very long time that isn't just mediocre, but is actually just completely incoherent to me as an actual design. I don't understand the thought process that went into it, and the more I learn about it the more it makes me worry for the game's near future.
 
I feel like there are a couple of things going on in the set to make the rares feel underwhelming:
1. The set actually has a light 5-color theme all throughout, which is necessary for having Allies in all colors and works well with colorless Eldrazi, but we simply haven't seen the mana fixing yet, since it's at lower rarities.

2. Eldrazi are likely going to appear in future sets outside of Zendikar, and they wanted to establish a theme for them that they could easily use in future sets while still having unused design space. There are also a lot more Eldrazi than in Rise of the Eldrazi, and to make sure there's actually some variety to them, not all Eldrazi can be impressive.

3. The big one is that this set relies more on the interconnection of the cards, with both Allies needing other Allies and the Eldrazi now having the theme of all being part of the same digestive system. In general, the complaints about rares can be boiled down to them not being that useful on their own, and that's probably because the ones that are useful on their own are at lower rarities. The rare Allies are only meant to be used when you've found that you're deep into an Ally deck, and the same goes for the rare Eldrazi. You can even partially see this with the uncommons that have been spoiled so far. For example, there have been earlier complaints of the lack of cards with ingest, but it seems clear that they want to separate the "feeding" cards from the payoff cards at rare. That is to say, the rare cards mostly don't have ingest because they only want you to draft them if your deck is capable of supporting them. The number crunch I posted earlier says that only 10 commons that are not basic lands have been spoiled, and I expect ingest will pop up a lot more there.
 
That feeling in a Draft when you draw nothing but lands G1 and only one land type game 2 while your hand fills up with second colour cards.

I mean, I like to think I'm okay at Draft, but man I've just had super crappy luck with my most recent ones. Getting 10/17 lands in an Aggro deck, getting no Mountains/plains in two games while my hand fills up with relevant cards, going into GB elves in a pod that can't support it(6 people and G was being fought over by 3 people).

Bring on the full spoilers for BFZ so I can know if I'm even going to bother Drafting it or if I can put that fund into building a Commander Deck.. I wasnt around for Zendikar's last time, but boy oh boy it sounded like crap(Zendikar, not RoE).
 
1. The set actually has a light 5-color theme all throughout, which is necessary for having Allies in all colors and works well with colorless Eldrazi, but we simply haven't seen the mana fixing yet, since it's at lower rarities.

Actually we have. Chapin went into it on his latest podcast but the new duals being fetchable is a big deal and makes 4 and 5 color much easier to manage. One fetch land can access 4 colors, running a heavy amount of fetches can let you cherry pick your mana base to an absurd degree. One of the big shifts we'll probably see after rotation is the splashing of a fourth color into wedge decks.
 
Actually we have. Chapin went into it on his latest podcast but the new duals being fetchable is a big deal and makes 4 and 5 color much easier to manage. One fetch land can access 4 colors, running a heavy amount of fetches can let you cherry pick your mana base to an absurd degree. One of the big shifts we'll probably see after rotation is the splashing of a fourth color into wedge decks.

Yeah I brought it up before but I'd be surprised if too many of the straight Wedge decks remained too popular. There's very little cost in getting the 4th color.
 

kirblar

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";178505351]How do we know it's a cycle?[/QUOTE]
It'd be really weird if we had 6-8 solo lands left unspoiled.
 

LProtag

Member
I haven't played Magic in forever. I'm considering maybe getting into some drafts or going to a pre-release every once and a while.

With all these changes to the way things are being put out recently, is this a good time to get into the game?
 
Is this too much to ask for? This set needs a kick in the power levels.

Spawn Swarm UBRG
Instant
Devoid
Exile the top 4 cards of target opponent's library. For each card that player owns in exile, put a 1/1 colorless Eldrazi Scion creature token onto the battlefield. It has "Sacrifice this creature: Add 1 to your mana pool.

It'd be really weird if we had 6-8 solo lands left unspoiled.

So maybe 1 more manland and Evolving Wilds, then a cycle of monocolor spell lands like the Halimar Depths cycle from worldwake?
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
There's no real payoff for going 4 or 5 color other than playing Khans of Tarkir cards, which isn't a problem with Khans of Tarkir, its a problem with Battle for Zendikar. There's no real payoff for Ingest or Allies either, which is kind of a problem.
 

hort

Neo Member
My predictions:

- The commons and uncommons will make this set make more since from a design stand point. Maybe not a lot, but a decent amount.

- Converge is playing into OGW which, I'm guessing, will be a much bigger 5c theme. They are planting it here in small amounts to help the draft environment come OGW/OGW/Battle
 
There's no real payoff for going 4 or 5 color other than playing Khans of Tarkir cards, which isn't a problem with Khans of Tarkir, its a problem with Battle for Zendikar. There's no real payoff for Ingest or Allies either, which is kind of a problem.

Catacomb Sifter, Hordeling Outburst and From Beyond plus Butcher of the Horde and Smothering Abomination :p

Once they reprint Lotus Cobra and Farseek all dreams will come true.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";178507655]Catacomb Sifter, Hordeling Outburst and From Beyond plus Butcher of the Horde and Smothering Abomination :p[/QUOTE]

Smothering Abomination is horrible unless you can resolve it with a full board of Scions.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I beat a Sultai Control deck with Gaea's Revenge.

Yes, he had lots of Sultai Charm ^_^
 

alternade

Member
I just want to see how they plan for us to cast these 7+ cmc cards. Scions help but scream that the format will be a slow build an army type board.

What I really want to see is:

- colorless only anthem effect
- manadork that taps for 2 unconditionally
- alt win condition, like if you have an ally of every color in exile you win the game
- reverse surgical extraction for cards in exile.
- make lands matter ie valakut or emeria
 
I'm personally reacting like this because this set is the first in a very long time that isn't just mediocre, but is actually just completely incoherent to me as an actual design.

It might be early to suggest this, but I'm wondering if at this point we can say with assurance that they can't do a return block well. My evidence:


  • The best part of Scars of Mirrodin block was the New Phyrexia set, that basically threw out the old mechanics and doubled down on new design space (and was supposed to be the original block concept anyway.) The Mirrodin return part was hamstrung by the contradiction of the original block -- people love it, but it ruined Standard. They couldn't bring back the biggest mechanic people remembered (development nixed affinity) and the need for -1/-1 counters nuked the other major Mirrodin theme, so the Mirran side never really got a chance to shine.
  • Return to Ravnica itself was a pretty solid set, but the block as a whole had a major issue -- RAV was so heavily structured, and such a huge success, that they felt compelled to mirror it super closely. The block really does nothing new and so can't avoid some feeling of staleness just from mirroring the first go-round so closely. The guilds didn't get as much space to breathe as the first time in the large sets, and Dragon's Maze was such a problematic idea that it was kind of inevitable that the execution would be poor.
  • Now with Battle for Zendikar we've got Eldrazi that are shoehorned into something besides what they were invented for, a Zendikar side that's flattened by the need to fit a full block's themes into half a block, and weird development stuff that feeds the confusing quality of the design. Even if the block turns out good overall it's never gonna be a bastion of coherency and elegance.
The overriding theme here is that it's very easy to underwhelm on repeating the parts of blocks people liked, and very difficult to find new ways to impress them all over again while still fitting in the same general theme. Revisiting a big success is financially appealing, but creatively it's kind of an all-downside scenario.

It kind of suggests to me they'd actually be better off revisiting some marginal planes, since there's lots of room to do something like Kamigawa way better than they did the first time, or to go further afield on the revisits they do, actually.

I don't understand the thought process that went into it, and the more I learn about it the more it makes me worry for the game's near future.

I don't think it's ever been possible to draw really good conclusions off a single block. This still isn't on a Masques/Kamigawa level. There's never been a point in the game's history where it was just good sets one after another -- probably the longest stretch is Alliances through Urza's Destiny (if you forgive Weatherlight and don't count utterly destroying the competitive game against Urza's block) or Ravnica through Future Sight (or maybe through Shadowmoor if you're a big Lorwyn fan, which I am not.) Most of the time it's more like one on, one off.
 

Firemind

Member
I liked Alara too. Not sure what's GAF's problems are with the block.

Killing people with Hissing Iguanar or Unearthed hasty zombies. Priceless.
 

kirblar

Member
RTR proper is really good, imo. Gatecrash just utterly fails because Dave Humphreys still was clearly not comfortable trying to go tit for tat with Erik Lauer and choices like "Hey, we have an uncounterable cycle for spikes in RTR! Great, we'll put in a commander cycle of mono-colored cards commander players will HATE!" were a big issue, along with the HYPER AGGRO NONSENSE that seems to trainwreck every 3-4th limited format nowadays due to their desire to throw in ones that give people wins via mana screw.

Humphereys has improved enormously since thern (Journey/FRF were both good verging on great) and he never had the banality of vision issue that plagued anything Tom LaPille touched.

Scars is an example of Rosewater being completely unable to see outside his own head unless market data is telling him otherwise. Of course players would silo off infect and non-infect in drafts! Of course poison feels horrible in constructed with insta-kills even though it plays pretty well in limited! He does not take constructed seriously outside of standard, and its really frustrating, especially with commander/modern becoming more and more important.

Alara shouldn't be nearly as hard to revisit since you can just use the Khans model. Khans II is going to be hard but you at least have an idea of what to do with it. (DIE DRAGONS DIE)
I liked Alara too. Not sure what's GAF's problems are with the block.
I think Shards of Alara is a godawful set - Ivory/Ebony cup effects at common? Bad mana fixing? No actual mechanic for Esper? Silo'd design teams resulting in no synergy between shards? I like the setting, I like Conflux, I like Reborn (even if it totally was "too much dessert" and was an overreach.)
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I liked Alara too. Not sure what's GAF's problems are with the block.

Killing people with Hissing Iguanar or Unearthed hasty zombies. Priceless.

Alara the set is actually really good. Alara the block rapidly becomes incoherent multicolor mess. There's no reason to care about Conflux and the Alara Reborn gimmick devalued gold as a concept for me for years afterwards

Kirblar said:
I think Shards of Alara is a godawful set - Ivory/Ebony cup effects at common? Bad mana fixing? No actual mechanic for Esper? Silo'd design teams resulting in no synergy between shards? I like the setting, I like Conflux, I like Reborn (even if it totally was "too much dessert" and was an overreach.)
Hah
 

LProtag

Member
So uh, is this set weird to get into for beginners?

I tried a prerelease and a draft or two of... I think Scars of Mirrodin, a while back. I had little to no idea what I was doing though.
 

Maledict

Member
This is one of the occasions where I agree with Killingagoldfish. I think Alara was a complete failure on every level.

Thematically, the mechanics just didn't evoke their shards at all. Mechanically, the format was just full of hyper-efficient, dull as hell creatures. They failed to execute the shards theme completely, and the whole block just felt like a giant misshapen blob of multicolour nonsense.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Like, everything about Alara Reborn (and to a lesser extent Conflux) can be extrapolated from pulling a random card most of the time
Image.ashx


Its pretty rare since, oh about Urzas Saga that we get genuinely ugly cards in Magic, but boy oh boy does Alara Reborn have most of them. And I don't just mean on an art level, although that's a big part of it. Ugly art that's garish in gold frames accompanied by lackluster design for like 80% of the set, its just not a set that I like looking at
 
So uh, is this set weird to get into for beginners?

I tried a prerelease and a draft or two of... I think Scars of Mirrodin, a while back. I had little to no idea what I was doing though.

Wizards has been trying to make every set good for beginners. The last couple sets were more on the complex side, but this set should be much simpler. You can ignore the grumblings about the quality of the spoiled rares, since it's really just two people that are very upset about it, and less than half of the set has actually been revealed. So yes, this is a great place to come in! Plus, when prerelease comes around, we'll be sure to provide plenty of advice.

That's why we started making these threads in OT, after all.
 

Daedardus

Member
Totally agree with you, charlequin. While this set may be disappointing, I do not think it will spell doom for MtG in general. Like you said, they have a tendency to alternate good and bad design and they will surely make up for it in the next set or block.

I also believe the M10 rules change and the slight modificiations after that are one of the best thing to happen to Magic. The game doesn't feel dumbed down in the slightlest because of it, it just provides much needed clarifications that all players, both new and experienced alike, benefit from. Combat removed from the stack and no mana burn may have diminished certain strategies, it surely made other strategies more viable. I think the framework designed by those changes helped the huge increase in Magic popularity.

Alara was my first set and therefore I still like it a lot, but I agree that wasn't the greatest compared to the previous and following sets. Zendikar had a strong design consistency (the only downside of Zendikar was the very aggressive limited). I also really liked Lorwyn block, even though I never drafted it, but maybe because I remember it better from all those broken-ass cards that dominated several formats.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Honestly the biggest disappointment with BFZ for me so far is how little identity the Zendikar side seems to have besides "allies". I hope other stuff will show up more in the uncommons
 

LProtag

Member
So what's the best way for me to learn what cards are good in a draft format, considering I probably don't have the kind of cash to start building competitive decks.
 

hort

Neo Member
So what's the best way for me to learn what cards are good in a draft format, considering I probably don't have the kind of cash to start building competitive decks.

Lrcast.com

They do a set review podcast before the set is released grading all the cards on how good they will be in limited. Should give you a good idea what to look for when drafting the new set.


One of the hosts, Luis Scott Vargas, also puts up text reviews on channelfireball.com


Listening to some recent episodes should give you a good frame of reference of what you are getting into. The cabs and uber theory episodes that were put out recently might be the best to start with. It seems like uber theory may be more relevant to BFZ but we really don't know yet
 

sgjackson

Member
You have 20(ish) bucks USD to add to/change this budget Nekusar EDH list, which I'm trying to keep around 100 bucks to pick up the cards I don't have. How would you do it? It's a first draft so the manabase is a mess and I'm really contemplating just spending the wiggle room in the budget on getting some commander staple ramp/fixing like Coalition Relic/Thran Dynamo/Chromatic Lantern/Gilded Lotus.
 

Firemind

Member
You have 20(ish) bucks USD to add to/change this budget Nekusar EDH list, which I'm trying to keep around 100 bucks to pick up the cards I don't have. How would you do it? It's a first draft so the manabase is a mess and I'm really contemplating just spending the wiggle room in the budget on getting some commander staple ramp/fixing like Coalition Relic/Thran Dynamo/Chromatic Lantern/Gilded Lotus.
Signets are the obvious ones. You're missing izzet and rakdos signet. Then there's coldsteel heart, felwar stone, mind stone, sky diamond, fire diamond, charcoal diamond. I also like rituals to power out something followed by windfall/wheel effects.

Also, where is Waste Not? That should be your top priority!
 

sgjackson

Member
Signets are the obvious ones. You're missing izzet and rakdos signet. Then there's coldsteel heart, felwar stone, mind stone, sky diamond, fire diamond, charcoal diamond. I also like rituals to power out something followed by windfall/wheel effects.

Also, where is Waste Not? That should be your top priority!

you know i looked at waste not and totally brain farted on adding it cause yeah it's totally crazy here. what would you cut for it?

how much ramp would you run in general?
 
Humphereys has improved enormously since thern (Journey/FRF were both good verging on great) and he never had the banality of vision issue that plagued anything Tom LaPille touched.

The terribleness of Tom LaPille mystifies me to this day. The man clearly loves Magic, clearly thinks deeply and carefully about the philosophy of design, and yet somehow still manages to be comprehensively, earth-shatteringly wrong on everything from cube design up through set development.

He does not take constructed seriously outside of standard, and its really frustrating, especially with commander/modern becoming more and more important.

Rosewater even makes efforts to stretch outside his comfort zone, but there's no substitute for actual enthusiasm. Commander 2014 is a great set because it's designed by people who really like and understand the format; same thing goes for sets that play well in Modern or any other area outside Rosewater's usual bailiwick.

Alara shouldn't be nearly as hard to revisit since you can just use the Khans model. Khans II is going to be hard but you at least have an idea of what to do with it. (DIE DRAGONS DIE)

Yeah I don't think it's actually too hard to revisit Alara, and there's certainly tons of room to make it better. I imagine Tarkir 2 is going to be a lot like these other returns (KHANS V. DRAGONS) but with the advantage that at least both sides are pretty comprehensible and easy to define.

Totally agree with you, charlequin. While this set may be disappointing, I do not think it will spell doom for MtG in general. Like you said, they have a tendency to alternate good and bad design and they will surely make up for it in the next set or block.

This is the single thing I like the best about the two-block paradigm -- more opportunity to try out other stuff (and other designers) to keep things fresh.

Alara was my first set and therefore I still like it a lot, but I agree that wasn't the greatest compared to the previous and following sets. Zendikar had a strong design consistency (the only downside of Zendikar was the very aggressive limited). I also really liked Lorwyn block, even though I never drafted it, but maybe because I remember it better from all those broken-ass cards that dominated several formats.

Part of the problem we're seeing with BFZ is that actually a lot of the texture that made Zendikar appealing was in the side stuff (quests and whatnot) which got pushed to the side here. I don't think "Landfall + some cards that like lands" is really a whole theme on its own otherwise.

Lorwyn block is visually beautiful, very cohesive, and does a lot of really smart things with tribal design. They still reprint tons of cards from the block because on that level -- individual cards -- it's full of fantastic designs. The draft format is miserable though -- not like Zendikar, which is just boring and lame, but so complicated that most people are guaranteed to be constantly misplaying, which sucks. People cite Time Spiral as the reason for NWO, but at least in that block everything going on was so insane and bizarre that you kind of felt okay screwing things up. In Lorwyn every screwup is just missing some three-step chain of on-board abilities that would've let you blow out your opponent in combat and then feeling lousy about it.

Honestly the biggest disappointment with BFZ for me so far is how little identity the Zendikar side seems to have besides "allies". I hope other stuff will show up more in the uncommons

All the animated land stuff too. I do think awaken is a very good choice in that regard, given that it's kind of a remix of two ZEN themes, Kicker + living land.
 
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