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Magic: the Gathering - Battle for Zendikar |OT| Lands matter (but nothing else does)

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A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
BR Eldrazi feels like its vaguely close to being a thing, but so far there's no real payoff to intentionally playing Devoid beyond Invisible Lightsaber.
 
D

DrArchon

Member
So all it needs to be an Eldrazi is devoid and an ability that references colorless creatures. I mean, get rid of those and slap a Rakdos emblem on it and it fits perfectly in either Ravnica block.

I thought the whole deal with the Eldrazi was about cards in exile now. Was I misinformed? Where are all the ingest cards and the processors?
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
DrArchon said:
So all it needs to be an Eldrazi is devoid and an ability that references colorless creatures. I mean, get rid of those and slap a Rakdos emblem on it and it fits perfectly in either Ravnica block.

I thought the whole deal with the Eldrazi was about cards in exile now. Was I misinformed? Where are all the ingest cards and the processors?
Click to expand...

What, the 3 cards with Ingest and 2 Processors aren't enough for you?
 
D

duxstar

Member
Just to get some discussion going around here; these are a couple of brews I have pre-emptively worked up; if you guys want to offer suggestions or whatever go right ahead, or include cards I may have missed. PS these are not honed, have no testing and are just basic idea's I wanted to get out there to facilitate discussion.

Green White Enchantments

Evolutionary Leap 4
Herald of the Pantheon 4
From the Beyond 4
Mastery of the Unseen 4
Stasis Snare 4
Starfield of Nyx 2
Sigil of the Empty Throne 2
Retreat to Emeria 2
Retreat to Kazandu 2
Fellidar Sovereign 2
Planar Outburst 2
Blight Herder 4
Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger 1

Only thing that worries me is a lack of early drops, Don't know if there are any other enchantment creatures I could use, or just any creatures period that facilitate the plan. Your attacking the opponent on a bunch of axis; hopefully gaining a ton of life, playing a bunch of enchantment's/ removal, and you should be able to flood the board with 1/1's and ramp into some of your bigger cards. Felidar Sovereign, Blight Herder, and Ulamog are all of your "big finishers" but you can also win the game with some of the other enchantments, or even sweep the board with planar outburst.


Atarka Aggro

Scythe Leopard 4
Undergrowth Champion 4
Managorger Hydra 4
Atarka's Command 4
Savage Knuckleblade 4
Exquisite Firecraft 4
Monastery Swiftspear 2
Stubborn Denial 3
Deathmist Raptor 4
Den Protector 3
36

Lumbering Falls 2
Wooded Foothills 4
Cinder Glade 4
Flooded Strand 4
Windswept Heath 4
Island 2
Forest 2
Mountain 2
24


This one is a low to the ground aggro build that tries to get aggressive early, and has the addition of having alot of tough hitters with some built in recursion. The den protector/Deathmist combo should help buy you things like Stubborn Denial, and give you some of that grindy game ability, while also gearing towards an aggro slant to end the game quickly. I'm not sure on the numbers, but any game where you curve Swiftspear, into double Scythe Leopard should be a pretty quick clock that needs to be answered. Undergrowth Champion and Managorger are there for the ability to get out of hand quickly and provide more resiliency. Finally you might be able to get some extra reach out of the Firecraft. This deck came out of the idea that Atarka's Command has a 4th mode that up until this point hasn't been used, but in a deck like this has alot of reach.

Imagine turn Three swinging with 2 Scythe Leopards, and an Ataraka's Command in hand, Play land for a turn (hopefully its a fetch) for +1/+1 on both, fetch to make them 3/3's, then atarka's command to add another land (4/4, 5/5 if its a fetch) and give them +1/+1 or deal 3 and have land enter; Theres alot of versatility to it.



Blue Green Eldrazi


Den Protector 4
Deathmist Raptor 4
Kiora Master of Depths 2
Shaman of Forgotten Ways 3
From the Beyond 3
GreenWarden of Murasa 2
Rattleclaw Mystic 3
Void Winnower 2
Conduit of Ruin 3
See the Unwritten 3
Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger 2
Oblivion Sower 2
Titan's Presence 3

Lumbering Falls 2
Wooded Foothills 4
Cinder Glade 4
Shrine of the Forsaken Gods 2
Polluted Delta 4
Flooded Strand 4
Frontier Bivouac 4


Pretty simple ramp deck, Try to get out one of your ramp creatures, See the Unwritten into one of your big guys, hopefully a Conduit of Ruin, so that you can play more eldrazi from your hand. I have no idea how the rest of the ramp cards will line up in the set but even if some of your big guys get countered you have numerous ways to get them back. Probably not fast enough ramp, but if the set slows standard down enough maybe just maybe you could play something like this.


My favorite card from the set is From the Beyond, it's a 1/1 generator that ramps you AND allows you to tutor for one of your cards, potentially chaning From the Beyond, into Conduit of Ruin, into Ugin. Just seem's like a powerful card that is hard to remove unless your against dromoka's command decks.


I haven't even gotten to thinking about some of my favorite colors to build yet. Naya, G/W, and even Bant are decks that could all be really really good, just have to see what else gets spoiled.

Would love to see any lists that you guys have, or any feedback on the above with a few tweaks. Every day new spoilers come out I get another idea (for example the g/w enchantment deck came from From the Beyond being spoiled.)
 
D

Daedardus

Member
I'm speculating that they internally made a joke bad set in addition to a good one, and they send the wrong set to print. Now they just have to roll with it.
 
F

Familienoberhauptvogel

Banned
SigmasonicX said:
Another "feels like an uncommon" card. I really wonder what the uncommons and commons are like.
Click to expand...

until you said this I didn't even notice it was a rare lol. Wtf WoTC.

Kamigawa was hated, I don't know whether since the spoiling began but it was awful.

My group of friends absolutely hated Conflux and only one of us went to the prerelease. Funnily though I built a cascade deck and it's one of my favourite in a noncompetitive way. You never know what you'll get and it's a five coloured deck with only multicoloured cards.
 
H

hort

Neo Member
This is obviously their new plan to lower the cost of getting into magic by putting all of the good constructed cards at common.
 
M

Matriox

Member
Daedardus said:
I'm speculating that they internally made a joke bad set in addition to a good one, and they send the wrong set to print. Now they just have to roll with it.
Click to expand...

I got unhinged/unglued 3 vibes, maro sent some of his cards to the printer like Void Winnower.

I should probably specify I'm kidding. I was horrible at speculating magic Origins and it turned out pretty strong in constructed so I should hold judgment til I see what better players than me play lol.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
I'll maintain what I said earlier, that the real core of the set is going to be at common and uncommon. Whether the cards there will be Constructed playable is another question, but the allies that work well on their own and the Eldrazi with ingest will surely be there.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
kirblar said:
Welp, I'm racing him now for a full-length article on this mess.
Click to expand...
I feel like this stood out.

How could he convey their enormous size? Just make them huge. But how would anyone ever get to play them if they were so expensive? That's when Brian came up with the idea of "battlecruiser Magic," where the entire environment was slowed down to give the giant Eldrazi a chance to get played.

...

I didn't feel I could use "battlecruisier Magic." (This isn't to say that players can't ramp out giant Eldrazi; it meant that there needed to be normal options also available.)
Click to expand...
The limited environment of Battle for Zendikar seems to be trying to put the giant Eldrazi in a non-battlecruiser Magic environment, even though the battlecruiser style was invented to allow people to actually play Eldrazi. You can't allow faster decks in your limited environment if you want people to play expensive spells because the faster decks will kill you before you ever get to play a giant Eldrazi.
 
F

Firemind

Member
Toxi said:
Image.ashx
Click to expand...
Thanks for almost making me spit out my drink. ayy lmao

Should have had Trample at the very least.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Toxi said:
I feel like this stood out.


The limited environment of Battle for Zendikar seems to be trying to put the giant Eldrazi in a non-battlecruiser Magic environment, even though the battlecruiser style was invented to allow people to actually play Eldrazi. You can't allow faster decks in your limited environment if you want people to play expensive spells because the faster decks will kill you before you ever get to play a giant Eldrazi.
Click to expand...

That and removing a lot of the things that make the Eldrazi scary and trying to retcon them into something not scary is the big problem. The Lands, Land Mechanics and Allies part of the set all look good to me. Too many of the Eldrazi and Eldrazi related spells are making go "why?", "what's the point" and "couldn't you make this in any other set".
 
S

sgjackson

Member
i feel like the big issue with this set is the ingest/processors chain is the cool idea but there's not enough of it. colorless is cool because of the mana cost, saying a spell is colorless even though it costs colored mana doesn't really resonate functionally and just feels like a shitty workaround to implement tribal.

i kinda wonder if people on the design/development teams pushed harder for ingest but maro shut them down because he has issues with exiled cards having function (i remember him never shutting up about misthollow griffin at one point)
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
sgjackson said:
i feel like the big issue with this set is the ingest/processors chain is the cool idea but there's not enough of it. colorless is cool because of the mana cost, saying a spell is colorless even though it costs colored mana doesn't really resonate functionally and just feels like a shitty workaround to implement tribal.

i kinda wonder if people on the design/development teams pushed harder for ingest but maro shut them down because he has issues with exiled cards having function (i remember him never shutting up about misthollow griffin at one point)
Click to expand...

3 creatures with ingest and 2 processors (plus Oblivion Sower) aren't really even a cycle.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Things that would have been better as the Eldrazi "mechanic" than where they landed:

1) Provoke
2) The Desecration Demon Clause
3) Smokestack/Descent into Madness effects
4) Combine Annihilator with the Exalted Dragon/Leviathan "can't attack unless you sacrifice" clauses
 
S

sgjackson

Member
SigmasonicX said:
It's kind of ridiculous to say there aren't enough ingesters when we've only seen 10 commons.
Click to expand...

this is fair (and this is kinda the flaw with trying to analyze full sets during spoiler season in general) but i definitely get the vibe they thought colorless was the marquee mechanic
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
SigmasonicX said:
It's kind of ridiculous to say there aren't enough ingesters when we've only seen 10 commons.
Click to expand...

Having all of the Processors at common would be pretty weird. I know people love to repeat the mantra "wait for the commons" in every set, but its a I don't think its an illegitimate concern to be worried that we haven't seen a payoff for Ingest or Colorless 7 days into spoilers.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
sgjackson said:
i feel like the big issue with this set is the ingest/processors chain is the cool idea but there's not enough of it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, while the processing angle doesn't entirely achieve the goal you'd have for delivering on the eldrazi concept, at least it does feel weird and screwed up and give you the ability to play off of a lot of destructive effects. I think if the eldrazi were all-in on that it'd turn out at least better than it looks right now.

I didn't see anyone pick up on this, but Rosewater actually said in the article that they originally intended to do exactly what I had suggested -- have every eldrazi exile something on cast. I think if they had that as a throughline in the place of Annihilator then we'd already have a better set.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
charlequin said:
I hope his turns out better than his EDH article, which is as much of a parodically bad example of him going up his own ass as BFZ is for Mark Rosewater.
Click to expand...
Oh wow. Reading that blog post... You're making an understatement. What a fucking awful article.

Also the casual format he's most interested in Tiny Leaders? Fucking really?
 
C

charlequin

Banned
lol in a three-way twitter argument with jesse and the ferrett

also I feel a little bad about ice burning rosewater, but, like, only a little

Toxi said:
Oh wow. Reading that blog post... You're making an understatement. What a fucking awful article.
Click to expand...

I'm not even saying there aren't tons of real reasons to hate EDH, but "it exists to let people show off their money" is a dumb criticism since it's... just not true? I'd have to imagine at this point the vast majority of Commander players are people like me who spend $20 on improving precons and call it a day.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
I think it was an episode of Jim Sterling's podcast but I remember someone bring up the point that the videogame industry is very tech oriented as opposed to art oriented as it will actively try to shit on the past to try to sell you the new hotness (which tied into why video game preservation is both hard and important). I'm getting that sense here with ROE vs BFZ.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Crocodile said:
I think it was an episode of Jim Sterling's podcast but I remember someone bring up the point that the videogame industry is very tech oriented as opposed to art oriented as it will actively try to shit on the past to try to sell you the new hotness (which tied into why video game preservation is both hard and important). I'm getting that sense here with ROE vs BFZ.
Click to expand...
I don't see it. When talking about Rise, he doesn't really deride it, he just says how it was based on demographic research. The changes aren't treated as improvements so much as necessary to avoid that same divisive reaction.

The way I see it, the problem isn't that WotC considers the old mechanics outdated, the problem is that they don't realize why those mechanics were necessary to make Rise of the Eldrazi.

Contrast that to, say, how Wizards talks about Time Spiral or Urza block or Homelands. With those sets, they freely say "that sucked and we will do better."
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
charlequin said:
lol in a three-way twitter argument with jesse and the ferrett

also I feel a little bad about ice burning rosewater, but, like, only a little



I'm not even saying there aren't tons of real reasons to hate EDH, but "it exists to let people show off their money" is a dumb criticism since it's... just not true? I'd have to imagine at this point the vast majority of Commander players are people like me who spend $20 on improving precons and call it a day.
Click to expand...

Hey now I bought two precons and put them together. That's twice the money you spent.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Toxi said:
I don't see it. When talking about Rise, he doesn't really deride it, he just says how it was based on demographic research. The changes aren't treated as improvements so much as necessary to avoid that same divisive reaction.

The way I see it, the problem isn't that WotC considers the old mechanics outdated, the problem is that they don't realize why those mechanics were necessary to make Rise of the Eldrazi.

Contrast that to, say, how Wizards talks about Time Spiral or Urza block or Homelands. With those sets, they freely say "that sucked and we will do better."
Click to expand...
The problem is that rosewater never talks about what DID work aside from serious limited play. That's where the Eldrazi were- flavor wise they were a home run.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
kirblar said:
The problem is that rosewater never talks about what DID work aside from serious limited play. That's where the Eldrazi were- flavor wise they were a home run.
Click to expand...
I think the problem is they see the Eldrazi were a flavor home run but don't actually understand why.

Devoid's the best example of this; they think "Eldrazi were colorless, but we want colored Eldrazi, so we'll make colored cards arbitrarily colorless" even though a colorless card with Devoid still feels like a normal colored card.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Toxi said:
I think the problem is they see the Eldrazi were a flavor home run but don't actually understand why.

Devoid's the best example of this; they think "Eldrazi were colorless, but we want colored Eldrazi, so we'll make colored cards arbitrarily colorless" even though a colorless card with Devoid still feels like a normal colored card.
Click to expand...
Mark didn't understand why.

Whoever drew up Ulamog? They got it.

Also, smaller Eldrazi are fine, but they need to have explicit sub-types.
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Toxi said:
I think the problem is they see the Eldrazi were a flavor home run but don't actually understand why.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Brian Tinsman knew exactly what the Eldrazi needed to be in order to sell the concept the creative team had come up with, but without him around anymore there wasn't anyone to hold the torch on that.

kirblar said:
Also, smaller Eldrazi are fine, but they need to have explicit sub-types.
Click to expand...

Yeah this irked me. I don't mind if they even have to add more, but give all of 'em some!
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Every time I have to even hear about Jesse and his constant trolling I get annoyed. Dude's way up his own ass at this point.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
kirblar said:
Someone on twitter mentioned this set feels just like New Phyrexia to them and...

.....yup. LOL.
Click to expand...

NPH was daring, risky and innovative (to a fault it could be argued given Phyrexian mana). How is BFZ anything like NPH. On what basis were they making this argument?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Crocodile said:
NPH was daring, risky and innovative (to a fault it could be argued given Phyrexian mana). How is BFZ anything like NPH. On what basis were they making this argument?
Click to expand...
barragetyrant.jpg
96.jpg



This is what they're talking about. Without something "else" going on, it just feels like Colored Artifacts part deux.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Jhriad said:
Who?
Click to expand...

Jesse Mason, akak "kingcobweb." He got a platform with a popular series of block reviews where he would talk about what he liked and didn't. Then he started doing poorly researched art critiques despite not knowing shit about art, complaining about Mark Rosewater constantly and putting troll articles about how magic sucks and commander sucks, etc. It's the Magic equivalent of clickbait.

kirblar said:
This is what they're talking about. Without something "else" going on, it just feels like Colored Artifacts part deux.
Click to expand...

Colored artifacts are something they need to use way more sparingly than they already do.
 
H

Hero

Member
Right, it's not at all apparent why we care about colorless or why colorless matters. There's just not enough cards to justify it.
 
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