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[kirblar]

On the flip side, would there be any value in WotC instituting a Restricted list in Modern? How would only being able to play one Eye of Ugin affect the deck? What other cards would be eligible for a restricted list? Would there even be much of a difference between banned and restricted cards?

Ultimately, I recognize that emergency bans cover development mistakes by WotC and are often unavoidable (as opposed to bans like Splinter Twin or Birthing Pod), but disagree with the approach to managing Modern by maintaining a big, long list of powerful banned cards. Honestly, I might not feel so salty about it all if WotC was more liberal in unbanning cards, or, as someone suggested, putting cards on a watch list for a while before banning them.

(I should point out that I don't play the Eldrazi deck and have no real financial stakes in Eye or Temple being banned.)

(I've also been out of the loop recently due to a sick toddler and moving cities later this month, so feel free to slap me if I'm repeating already squashed arguments.)

Twin/Pod were both showing up as "extras" in established archetypes. Twin was no longer a distinct deck, it was a package slotted into tempo/control shells (and heck, even combo w/ living end.) Pod did the same thing, the printing of Siege Rhino caused Abzan/Jund to merge with Pod into a single archetype playing Thoughtseize and Rhino and Voice alongside a pod package. Those merges are incredibly unhealthy, and both decks contributed to the "oops i win" issue that had/has plagued the format since its inception.

Eye ban is different- this is just a broken deck.

Restricted lists lead to too much variance, they're only in Vintage because that's its shtick (play with as much as humanly possible.)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Could the same happen with CoCo?

 

[kirblar]

Could the same happen with CoCo?

Only if we start seeing only one coco deck and it absorbs another archetype.

Right now its just the new Pod deck, with 3+ different flavors like Pod used to have.

 

[aidan]

Twin/Pod were both showing up as "extras" in established archetypes. Twin was no longer a distinct deck, it was a package slotted into tempo/control shells (and heck, even combo w/ living end.) Pod did the same thing, the printing of Siege Rhino caused Abzan/Jund to merge with Pod into a single archetype playing Thoughtseize and Rhino and Voice alongside a pod package. Those merges are incredibly unhealthy, and both decks contributed to the "oops i win" issue that had/has plagued the format since its inception.

Eye ban is different- this is just a broken deck.

Restricted lists lead to too much variance, they're only in Vintage because that's its shtick (play with as much as humanly possible.)

The first bit clarifies things for me, thanks.

I suppose the second point is what I'm advocating for. People complain that there's not enough variety in Modern, and WotC kills decks when they feel like the format is getting stale. Wouldn't that increased variance lead to a more diverse format?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Could the same happen with CoCo?

The problem with Pod is that its oppressive in a sideboard oriented format because you can almost literally just take every relevant hatebear and dump it in as a 1-of toolbox sideboard card. Affinity in your meta? Kataki. Storm? Eidolon of Rhetoric. etc. - you can do it for basically every deck or card, its absurd.

You can brick on CoCo in a way you can't with Pod.

 

[kirblar]

The first bit clarifies things for me, thanks.

I suppose the second point is what I'm advocating for. People complain that there's not enough variety in Modern, and WotC kills decks when they feel like the format is getting stale. Wouldn't that increased variance lead to a more diverse format?

I'm not sure what type of variance you're talking about. There's a ton of variety in the format, the issue right now is that the Eldrazi strategy is the best thing to be doing by a mile.

You can brick on CoCo in a way you can't with Pod.

That brick at the PT was amazing.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Until something from Eldrazi gets banned, how does infect adjust to compete with it? I like Brian Demar's thoughts on mb more Viridian Corrupters for Chalice and Spellskites. Plus Affinity was the 2nd strongest deck.

Some Dismembers mb probably needs to be added. -5/-5 takes care of all of their threats at the cost of a lot of life. Could be a reason to go into G/B. Let's hope they have an urborg to lessen the pain lol.

Gutshot seems good in the sb. Takes care of Mimics along with a few other creatures in the UR version. Also hits Blinkmoth.

I've been pretty impressed with Slip Through Space in testing. Helps push through where Apostle's Blessing can't anymore since they have coloress and not artifact creatures, plus Mutuvaults backing them up.

Infect seems like it would be a very good matchup against Eldrazi. You mostly just play an uninteractive game and try to count to 10 before they count to 20.

I'm not sure what type of variance you're talking about. There's a ton of variety in the format, the issue right now is that the Eldrazi strategy is the best thing to be doing by a mile.

That brick at the PT was amazing.

I just think Pod's problem was primarily that it was good against everything so there was no reason for the meta to be anything but UR Delver and Pod.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The problem with Pod is that its oppressive in a sideboard oriented format because you can almost literally just take every relevant hatebear and dump it in as a 1-of toolbox sideboard card. Affinity in your meta? Kataki. Storm? Eidolon of Rhetoric. etc. - you can do it for basically every deck or card, its absurd.

You can brick on CoCo in a way you can't with Pod.

Technically you could just not draw the creatures to curve into the hatebear.

That brick at the PT was amazing.

Really painful to watch.

 

[The Technomancer]

Infect seems like it would be a very good matchup against Eldrazi. You mostly just play an uninteractive game and try to count to 10 before they count to 20.

That Eldrazi deck isn't running anything with flying, does it? Inkmoth seems to be positioned well, although I'm not sure if those two decks fighting is the best thing for the format

 

[kirblar]

That Eldrazi deck isn't running anything with flying, does it? Inkmoth seems to be positioned well, although I'm not sure if those two decks fighting is the best thing for the format

The solution to Eldrazi seems to be either to bullshit them (infect/infinite life) or go full out U/W control, since the decks actually soft to wraths.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That Eldrazi deck isn't running anything with flying, does it? Inkmoth seems to be positioned well, although I'm not sure if those two decks fighting is the best thing for the format

Ghost Quarter though

 

[Angry Grimace]

Jace, Master Detective 2WU
Loyalty 3

+1: Investigate. (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card.")
-3: You may sacrifice any number of Clue artifacts. For each artifact you sacrifice this way, draw two cards.
-6: Name a legendary creature, a land and an Equipment card, then draw 4 cards and reveal any number of cards your hand. You win the game if you reveal a card with each name in your hand.

(lol)

Technically you could just not draw the creatures to curve into the hatebear.



Really painful to watch.

I played Pod right before the ban and I can tell you that didn't actually happen very much. What mostly happened was Pod just won all the time. Sure, there are ways to lose the game, but Pod was incredibly resilient - it wasn't even a combo deck. You'd just win by valuing your opponent out all of the time and never drawing Birthing Pod because your opponent had to spend a lot of time and resources to hating out Pod and nobody actually played Twin at the time because UR Delver with Treasure Cruise was better in every way. My win percentage with Pod was dramatically better than anything I've played since then.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I played Pod right before the ban and I can tell you that didn't actually happen very much. What mostly happened was Pod just won all the time. Sure, there are ways to lose the game, but Pod was incredibly resilient - it wasn't even a combo deck. You'd just win by valuing your opponent out all of the time and never drawing Birthing Pod because your opponent had to spend a lot of time and resources to hating out Pod and nobody actually played Twin at the time because UR Delver with Treasure Cruise was better in every way.

Of course I just meant it's technically possible, way more unlikely than CoCo bricking since the noncreature density was surprisingly high

 

[kirblar]

Pod got me my two SCG T8s. In Standard.

 

[ThLunarian]

The solution to Eldrazi seems to be either to bullshit them (infect/infinite life) or go full out U/W control, since the decks actually soft to wraths.

I hear that Ad Nauseam Combo is also well-positioned to take down Eldrazi too, since Eldrazi basically can't do anything to stop them once they cast Ad Nauseam.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So I just did my very first Oath draft; went 3-0 with RW allies. Got a General Tazri fourth pick. Easy game, easy life.

Spoiler

Bonesaw is OP

 

[Firemind]

I thought I had a good R/W deck but then I got bushwhacked for 15+ damage.

I opened so many useless mythics.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Count me on board with undead Elspeth.

 

[OnPoint]

Count me on board with undead Elspeth.

Return to Theros -- Undead Elspeth legendary creature (dead things can't have sparks)
Second block set -- White God Elspeth (this is now her final form, she found somewhere to belong and a way to protect people)

It would just wrap up her personal arc so well, New Phyrexia notwithstanding. I don't think that it's her fight anymore because ultimately, they lost.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Phyrexia won't just stay on mirrodin and hasn't in the past hence her background with them.

Isn't Ob Nixilis the counterpoint to undead/living not having a spark and however Theros undead work.

 

[OnPoint]

Phyrexia won't just stay on mirrodin and hasn't in the past hence her background with them.

Isn't Ob Nixilis the counterpoint to undead/living not having a spark and however Theros undead work.

Phyrexia eventually moving off of their plane is a given. I still think they'll find a way to ride Emrakul out.

Nixilis isn't "undead". His spark was contained and he was "cursed" by a hedron from Nahiri. His spark was reignited, it was never removed. I suppose Elspeth's might not have been, though "death" might do that. And her becoming a God is an easy way to make her relevant while making her no longer need to be a planeswalker.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Phyrexia eventually moving off of their plane is a given. I still think they'll find a way to ride Emrakul out.

Nixilis isn't "undead". His spark was contained and he was "cursed" by a hedron from Nahiri. His spark was reignited, it was never removed.

Neither was Elspeth's though, we just know she's in the underworld where you supposedly can't walk out of. Isn't Garruk zombified by the veil's curse too? And we just didn't have a Zombie walker yet.

My guess, wishful thinking, would be Phyrexia keeping Venser alive and using his knowledge to complete his lifeboat.

 

[OnPoint]

Neither was Elspeth's though, we just know she's in the underworld where you supposedly can't walk out of. Isn't Garruk zombified by the veil's curse too? And we just didn't have a Zombie walker yet.

My guess, wishful thinking, would be Phyrexia keeping Venser alive and using his knowledge to complete his lifeboat.

The difference here is, as far as I know, Elspeth actually died, didn't she? Or at least that's what was implied. So that, I think, might cause her to "lose" her spark. So she dies, her "spirit" or whatever is in the underworld, eventually belief of her resurrects her as a God. They've been looking for a way to reduce planeswalker numbers but I'm sure they don't want to lose an important character. This would be such a clean answer.

Why do you think she'd still have a spark after all that?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I hear that Ad Nauseam Combo is also well-positioned to take down Eldrazi too, since Eldrazi basically can't do anything to stop them once they cast Ad Nauseam.

Pithing Needle naming Lightning Storm

Phyrexia eventually moving off of their plane is a given. I still think they'll find a way to ride Emrakul out.

Nixilis isn't "undead". His spark was contained and he was "cursed" by a hedron from Nahiri. His spark was reignited, it was never removed. I suppose Elspeth's might not have been, though "death" might do that. And her becoming a God is an easy way to make her relevant while making her no longer need to be a planeswalker.

Nope, he was cursed by the Chain Veil. Same as Garruk and Liliana, just worse, and they still have their sparks. The reason he lost is spark was he tried to fuck around with the chaotic mana of Zendikar (possibly due to the influence of the Eldrazi). Nahiri put a hedron in his head which suppressed his demonic powers he had gained from the Chain Veil, not his spark.

 

[charlequin]

On the flip side, would there be any value in WotC instituting a Restricted list in Modern?

Restricted list would make one of the worst parts of Modern (oops you got surprise-owned) even worse.

ohhhhhh shit I just got what you guys were going with for this

AG did the hard work of coming up with the concept, you gotta beat people over the head to land these jokes so I just overdid it.

It would just wrap up her personal arc so well, New Phyrexia notwithstanding.

I don't think you can notwithstand that though. It's kind of fundamental to her arc that she get a chance to go back and beat up her childhood bogeyman.

The difference here is, as far as I know, Elspeth actually died, didn't she? Or at least that's what was implied. So that, I think, might cause her to "lose" her spark. So she dies, her "spirit" or whatever is in the underworld

She actually died in that she was killed, but people who die in Theros get real physical-ass bodies in the underworld and retain all their skills and such if they escape the Underworld to become Returned. I don't think we have anything that actually suggests she would necessarily lose her spark from this if she manages to get alive again.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Restricted list would make one of the worst parts of Modern (oops you got surprise-owned) even worse.



AG did the hard work of coming up with the concept, you gotta beat people over the head to land these jokes so I just overdid it.



I don't think you can notwithstand that though. It's kind of fundamental to her arc that she get a chance to go back and beat up her childhood bogeyman.

I would be okay with a Restricted List in a completely different format where a lot more of the dumb cards were legal. Like, if you only had 1 Hypergenesis legal you would lose the game to Mana Leak or Remand

 

[ultron87]

I don't think you can notwithstand that though. It's kind of fundamental to her arc that she get a chance to go back and beat up her childhood bogeyman.

It is still real weird that her home plane just had random other Phyrexians unrelated to the New Phyrexians.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The difference here is, as far as I know, Elspeth actually died, didn't she? Or at least that's what was implied. So that, I think, might cause her to "lose" her spark. So she dies, her "spirit" or whatever is in the underworld, eventually belief of her resurrects her as a God. They've been looking for a way to reduce planeswalker numbers but I'm sure they don't want to lose an important character. This would be such a clean answer.

Why do you think she'd still have a spark after all that?

Pretty sure she just exchanges her life for Daxos' and Erebos shows up to get her after getting stabbed by Heliod.

The Alara Walkers really just were the best I'd be pretty annoyed if they got rid of them more than any others, except maybe Ajani. Never cared much for him.

Koth > Elspeth > Tezzeret > Venser > Sarkhan > Chandra > Gideon > don't care about the rest.

It is still real weird that her home plane just had random other Phyrexians unrelated to the New Phyrexians.

It's implied the Phyrexians probed many planets.

 

[charlequin]

I would be okay with a Restricted List in a completely different format where a lot more of the dumb cards were legal. Like, if you only had 1 Hypergenesis legal you would lose the game to Mana Leak or Remand

Like a babby Vintage the way Modern is a babby Legacy? Hmmm.

It is still real weird that her home plane just had random other Phyrexians unrelated to the New Phyrexians.

There are a bunch of Phyrexians left over in random places from the original batch (like even Old Phyrexia was just devastated and left without a leader, not actually destroyed) and the black oil apparently got dripped by Karn in other places too, it's just that only Mirrodin was so perfectly suited to it that the entire plane got converted.

 

[OnPoint]

I don't think you can notwithstand that though. It's kind of fundamental to her arc that she get a chance to go back and beat up her childhood bogeyman.

That's why she becomes a God and you bring them to her.

Pretty sure she just exchanges her life for Daxos' and Erebos shows up to get her after getting stabbed by Heliod.

She gets stabbed by a god, then the literal God of the Dead comes and gets her?

C'mon.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I still want the arc set on real Phyrexia. I bet its pretty evil there still.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

She gets stabbed by a god, then the literal God of the Dead comes and gets her?

C'mon.

If you ask me PW to God is kind of a step down so nothing too impressive. I mean most of the NuWalkers survived a meeting with Bolas.

Even then we got no clue how dying on Theros works on a PW.

And Artifact theme on an enchantment plane?

 

[OnPoint]

If you ask me PW to God is kind of a step down so nothing too impressive. I mean most of the NuWalkers survived a meeting with Bolas.

Even then we got no clue how dying on Theros works on a PW.

And Artifact theme on an enchantment plane?

I don't necessarily agree about it being a step down, simply because Xenagos worked so hard to get it. There has to be something to having access to that kind of power.

Agreed we don't REALLY know how it works, and as pointed out by Charlequin, it definitely is a unique situation on that plane. Either way, they have narrative outs if they want to figure out a way to keep her as a walker, or write her out of the walker family.

Artifact Vs Enchantment sounds like the kind of hook MaRo would love designing around. I'm imagining corrupted versions of the Gods' weapons now, and it seems like kind of a cool concept.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't necessarily agree about it being a step down, simply because Xenagos worked so hard to get it. There has to be something to having access to that kind of power.

Agreed we don't REALLY know how it works, and as pointed out by Charlequin, it definitely is a unique situation on that plane. Either way, they have narrative outs if they want to figure out a way to keep her as a walker, or write her out of the walker family.

Artifact Vs Enchantment sounds like the kind of hook MaRo would love designing around. I'm imagining corrupted versions of the Gods' weapons now, and it seems like kind of a cool concept.

Artifact vs enchantment was my original pitch for a return to Ravnica for GDS2. I said throw out the guilds (since originally Ravnica ended with the dissolution of the guildpact) and do something completely different with the setting, with remains of various guilds banding together in various ways, and the Izzet and the Selesnya spearheading a two sided artifice vs enchantment war

It...didn't get picked up

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I don't necessarily agree about it being a step down, simply because Xenagos worked so hard to get it. There has to be something to having access to that kind of power.

Agreed we don't REALLY know how it works, and as pointed out by Charlequin, it definitely is a unique situation on that plane. Either way, they have narrative outs if they want to figure out a way to keep her as a walker, or write her out of the walker family.

Artifact Vs Enchantment sounds like the kind of hook MaRo would love designing around. I'm imagining corrupted versions of the Gods' weapons now, and it seems like kind of a cool concept.

I guess that's nice but I really wanna keep her as a walker, contrary to what WoTC believes new PWs were among my favourite things to look forward to with new sets and a diverse cast of Walkers added much more to the narrative than 5 walkers of which one's story has been told completely already and unconvincingly at that. Xenagos just took power on a plane above power to walk planes.

Also how would artifact work on a plain with artifact enchantment creature tokens?

 

[OnPoint]

I guess that's nice but I really wanna keep her as a walker, contrary to what WoTC believes new PWs were among my favourite things to look forward to with new sets and a diverse cast of Walkers added much more to the narrative than 5 walkers of which one's story has been told completely already and unconvincingly at that.

Also how would artifact work on a plain with artifact enchantment creature tokens?

I mean, you can want that all you want, but WotC's gonna WotC. And I feel like the writing is on the walls for Elspeth. I think Gideon is the current and future white walker, and Elspeth is going to be on the sidelines for the forseeable future. But we'll see. For what it's worth, I agree. I like new walkers as well. I'm not thrilled with the direction they're taking the cast.

Nope, he was cursed by the Chain Veil. Same as Garruk and Liliana, just worse, and they still have their sparks. The reason he lost is spark was he tried to fuck around with the chaotic mana of Zendikar (possibly due to the influence of the Eldrazi). Nahiri put a hedron in his head which suppressed his demonic powers he had gained from the Chain Veil, not his spark.

You're wrong about the order here.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/ob-nixilis

• Cursed by Chain Veil
• Walks to Zendikar to find a cure
• Meets Nahiri
• She locks him to the plane with a hedron
• The hedron suppresses his spark

The piece I was arguing was that him becoming a demon didn't suppress his spark. The hedron did.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, you can want that all you want, but WotC's gonna WotC. And I feel like the writing is on the walls for Elspeth. I think Gideon is the current and future white walker, and Elspeth is going to be on the sidelines for the forseeable future. But we'll see. For what it's worth, I agree. I like new walkers as well. I'm not thrilled with the direction they're taking the cast.


You're wrong about the order here.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/story/planeswalkers/ob-nixilis

• Cursed by Chain Veil
• Walks to Zendikar to find a cure
• Meets Nahiri
• She locks him to the plane with a hedron
• The hedron suppresses his spark

The piece I was arguing was that him becoming a demon didn't suppress his spark. The hedron did.

This is in fact the opposite of what Doug Beyer says, so there's a material conflict.

"He comes to Zendikar centuries ago, lured by its powerful mana. He encounters difficulties with said local mana; has his spark fragmented. Loses ability to planeswalk. Is seriously grumpy. Becomes further disempowered when someone called Nahiri fuses a small binding hedron into his forehead. Loses even his ability to fly. Insult is added to injury. Becomes even grumpier."

 

[OnPoint]

This is in fact the opposite of what Doug Beyer says, so there's a material conflict.

Hahahaha

WotC gonna WotC

Why do I care if they obviously don't? That's the question I keep coming back to.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I mean, you can want that all you want, but WotC's gonna WotC. And I feel like the writing is on the walls for Elspeth. I think Gideon is the current and future white walker, and Elspeth is going to be on the sidelines for the forseeable future. But we'll see. For what it's worth, I agree. I like new walkers as well. I'm not thrilled with the direction they're taking the cast.

Oh yeah she's definitely on the sidelines for a while but if it's just between her remaining a walker or becoming god. I'd go with Walker for the aforementioned reasons and that we already had the PW to god at least once with Xenagos and possibly with Heliod too.

And still fairly certain Garruk is undead to some degree.

 

[Angry Grimace]

What should really clue you in that Elspeth being done is Gideon's appropriation of her mechanical identity.

 

[kirblar]

What should really clue you in that Elspeth being done is Gideon's appropriation of her mechanical identity.

If/When she comes back, she's going to be different for sure.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What should really clue you in that Elspeth being done is Gideon's appropriation of her mechanical identity.

Flip Nissa draws cards. Gideon had 1 rendition where he spawns a creature and that mostly because he's called ally but doesn't trigger rally.

 

[Ashodin]

I still want the arc set on real Phyrexia. I bet its pretty evil there still.

Better yet, a new plane is introduced;

• Mana there drains the life of the user
• Strange mechanical creatures haunt the lands, oozing blood
• First set: Phia
• Second Set: Phyrexia's Dawn

Basically it gets revealed that the plane that everyone thought was new was actually just old Phyrexia that was slowly regenerating over time, and mana flooded the plane to allow regular life to flourish. Turns out that's a no-no, and oldschool Phyrexians take over once again.

Irony is that a planeswalker gets born on Phyrexia (which Yawgmoth wanted a spark for the longest time).

on the subject of New Phyrexia

Expect the Gatewatch to hook up with Karn and we get a proper all-out war block.

 

[OnPoint]

Oh yeah she's definitely on the sidelines for a while but if it's just between her remaining a walker or becoming god. I'd go with Walker for the aforementioned reasons and that we already had the PW to god at least once with Xenagos and possibly with Heliod too.

And still fairly certain Garruk is undead to some degree.

They're already laying the groundwork with Ajani on Theros basically converting people to believe in her. Devotion to Elspeth will be a thing, I think, when they return. Elspeth getting her revenge on Heliod for his betrayal by defeating him and ascending to his throne is incredibly Greek and fits the Theros motif to a tee. Feels kind of like you're in denial because you like Elspeth as a planeswalker. Maybe she will still be, but I really don't believe they're moving in that direction.

Garruk being evil and twisted and cursed does not equal undead.

 

[WanderingWind]

pls no more Theros.

 

[ThLunarian]

Pithing Needle naming Lightning Storm

Doesn't a single Shattering Spree somewhere in the deck take care of that? Exile all four SSG, cast Spree on Needle, win with Pact of Negation backup?

There might even be a free option that I can't think of right now.

 

[kirblar]

pls no more Theros.

The problem with Theros is that all the references are so damn specific. It's not them doing their spin on a trope, its them reskinning existing stuff.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Doesn't a single Shattering Spree somewhere in the deck take care of that? Exile all four SSG, cast Spree on Needle, win with Pact of Negation backup?

There might even be a free option that I can't think of right now.

I mean, the biggest problem with this as a strategy is that Ad Nauseum sucks in general.

 

[OnPoint]

pls no more Theros.

Was pretty popular. I would imagine we'll be returning there.

 

[Lucario]

Doesn't a single Shattering Spree somewhere in the deck take care of that? Exile all four SSG, cast Spree on Needle, win with Pact of Negation backup?

There might even be a free option that I can't think of right now.

I think they just double SSG into Conflagrate when there's a needle naming Lightning Storm