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[Hero]

The second part was just referring to the timing of the announcement being a week after they had a pro tour on with the focus on a non-rotating format. The perfect place to announce something like this. But I guess they do want to bring people to the website and see the Magic Story, so...
How much do you really have to hype a set that is limited and will sell out, even at $10 MSRP a pack (probably be $15 to buy in practice)? They have a finite amount of cards to sell, and they will be sold out as soon as they take orders. They really don't have to do much for this set.

You are right though. Guess they probably also are worried about the format being 'solved' before the first booster is even cracked. Just seems like this is prime territory for 'conspiracy theorists' to go start shit among retailers and WotC getting a bad name if information does get out there, solely due to the potential value of the cards that are possible to see reprinting.

Hopefully we see Serum Vision's and other expensive commons getting a reprint.


And I totally agree with that when they are actually sets. Reprint sets that are already going to be limited aren't the same. Especially when leaks could see some companies getting the potential to save themselves hundreds to thousands of dollars and others lose that much. We already know that WotC has had problems with leaks.

Spoiling a whole reprint set this far in advance would do nothing but totally fuck over the secondary market.

 

[Hackworth]

I genuinely want more weird shit like Planechase. I don't think we need more Planechase specifically, but just more experimental product

I'd like more Conspiracy, personally.
Draft focused, multiplayer, not a billion times more expensive than normal boosters.

Not that more Planechase (or Archenemy?) wouldn't be cool, I just really liked Conspiracy.

 

[WanderingWind]

The same guy that leaked EDM, the bans and Eternal Masters is saying some interesting stuff over on Reddit.

2-3 vendors are given special access to near future sets in order to give them time to move product accordingly, Zen fetches will likely be in the set and there is substantial smoke that EMA cards will be added to the Modern pool at some point or a new 'eternal' format will be created altogether. A bit of potentially interesting info.

 

[kirblar]

The same guy that leaked EDM, the bans and Eternal Masters is saying some interesting stuff over on Reddit.

2-3 vendors are given special access to near future sets in order to give them time to move product accordingly, Zen fetches will likely be in the set and there is substantial smoke that EMA cards will be added to the Modern pool at some point or a new 'eternal' format will be created altogether. A bit of potentially interesting info.

The speculation about a new format is just dumbass reddit spec.

Mark's statement applies to casual stuff like EDH too- "when" is an inevitability..

 

[WanderingWind]

The speculation about a new format is just dumbass reddit spec.

Mark's statement applies to casual stuff like EDH too- "when" is an inevitability..

I would agree, but then I think about House, M.D. Every episode, the team would end up questioning House's stupid-ass plan and every episode House would be right. Then the next episode came around, same thing. After 100 times or so, you get a bit frustrated when people continue to question the guy who has always been right.

I'm not saying it's true, but I am saying that after a certain amount of "predictions" (and according to ProxyGuy the leaker knew about SoI too, but he didn't believe him at the time) I'm not going to just dismiss it. Eternal Masters would've been entirely dismissable last year.

 

[kirblar]

I would agree, but then I think about House, M.D. Every episode, the team would end up questioning House's stupid-ass plan and every episode House would be right. Then the next episode came around, same thing. After 100 times or so, you get a bit frustrated when people continue to question the guy who has always been right.

I'm not saying it's true, but I am saying that after a certain amount of "predictions" (and according to ProxyGuy the leaker knew about SoI too, but he didn't believe him at the time) I'm not going to just dismiss it. Eternal Masters would've been entirely dismissable last year.

Is there another format happening

There's completely unbased rumor about a new format that is modern + EMA, I did not start it, but it seems like a good idea. We prolly won't see it within the year though.

He's specifically distancing from the rumor. The idea is ludicrous- you don't want to include FoW in Modern, and you don't want to take Duals out of Legacy.

 

[WanderingWind]

He's specifically distancing from the rumor. The idea is ludicrous- you don't want to include FoW in Modern, and you don't want to take Duals out of Legacy.

He did the same with EDM. I'm assuming it's because that subsection of info was known to fewer people. The new format rumor seems like a 50/50. WotC hasn't directly supported Legacy in years, and yet here they are introducing new Legacy only cards? That's the part that makes this seem like they've at the very least given it very serious consideration, on the eventuality that the set is a MM1-style success. It also feeds into the still mysterious comments that WotC had to rethink some things.

 

[kirblar]

He did the same with EDM. I'm assuming it's because that subsection of info was known to fewer people. The new format rumor seems like a 50/50. WotC hasn't directly supported Legacy in years, and yet here they are introducing new Legacy only cards? That's the part that makes this seem like they've at the very least given it very serious consideration, on the eventuality that the set is a MM1-style success. It also feeds into the still mysterious comments that WotC had to rethink some things.

EDM?

He's mentioned this set is indirectly supporting Modern as well. Liliana, Inquisition, and Tarmogoyf reprints all seem likely. (First two for sure.)

 

[Angry Grimace]

Nissa makes for a lot of matches that must involve a ton of hair-pulling for opponents as they try to fight through an army of plants. I've been playing her as a 4-of in a Abzan planeswaker deck and she seems to give opponents fits.

Basically the plan is just straight up blocking and stalling until your opponent runs out of gas and then just charging in with an army of 3/4 plants from Gideon emblems or Nissa counters.

EDM?

He's mentioned this set is indirectly supporting Modern as well. Liliana, Inquisition, and Tarmogoyf reprints all seem likely. (First two for sure.)

I would be unreasonable annoyed if Jace the Mind Sculptor wasn't in this.

 

[OnPoint]

He did the same with EDM. I'm assuming it's because that subsection of info was known to fewer people. The new format rumor seems like a 50/50. WotC hasn't directly supported Legacy in years, and yet here they are introducing new Legacy only cards? That's the part that makes this seem like they've at the very least given it very serious consideration, on the eventuality that the set is a MM1-style success. It also feeds into the still mysterious comments that WotC had to rethink some things.

Not being able to support Legacy with reprints is basically them leaving money on the table. I could totally see them saying: "The Reserved List prevents us from supporting Legacy so we're creating Eternal to be our furthest reaching supported format. All official support for Legacy is now ceased as we focus on Eternal going forward."

Mind you, I don't think it's a good solution. But it is A potential solution.

 

[kirblar]

Legacy without Duals won't happen.

This is a history lesson from Professor Kirblar-

A long time ago, there was a format called Extended. You could play with Dual lands and all sorts of cards like Brainstorm!

And then this happened- https://web.archive.org/web/2012030...s/wa.exe?A2=ind9909a&L=mtg-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=1967

Explanation of Extended Format Change
When the Extended format was first created, we intended older expansions to
rotate out of the environment, but at a much slower rate than the Standard
rotation. The advantages to this rotation are fewer banned cards and players
across the world having equal access to the cards still in the environment.
The disadvantage is that some key cards, such as the "dual lands" from
Revised Edition(tm), could no longer be played in the format.
Many consider the dual lands to be the primary element that sets the
Extended format apart from the Standard format. We believe that eventually
dual lands will no longer be the main element differentiating Extended and
Standard-players will begin to miss other cards instead, such as Living
Death, Cursed Scroll, Rancor, and so on. Until that time, however, the DCI
has decided to keep the dual lands in the format.
The following expansions will rotate out of the Extended format on October
1: Revised Edition, Fourth Edition(tm), The Dark®, and Fallen Empires(tm).
The ten dual lands will be legal until the next Extended set rotation (which
will occur sometime in the next two to three years). By the time dual lands
rotate out of Extended, the DCI will be supporting another format (most
probably a casual format) in which they can be played. In addition to set
rotation, several cards have been added to the Extended Banned List to
ensure that combo decks are kept in check in the new environment.
These changes should make Extended a little more accessible to new Magic
markets, which is essential for the long-term growth of the format. In the
short term, the Extended format will go through some necessary growing
pains. The Extended format will continue to be one of the DCI's main
formats.

They started rotating the format, but kept the duals! Because they knew players liked playing with them. And so people kept playing for a few years.... and then this happened! https://web.archive.org/web/20020805200120/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/news/20020517a

There will be a significant change to the Extended tournament format when Onslaught rotates into play in the fall. Standard has a rotation every 3 sets. Similarly, Extended will have a rotation every 3 blocks. While Standard fluctuates between 4 and 6 sets, Extended will fluctuate between 6 and 8 blocks.

At the initial implementation of this pattern, the legal blocks will be: Onslaught, Odyssey, Invasion, Mercadian Masques, Urza's Saga, and Tempest. Base set editions are counted as being part of the block during which they were released. This means that 6th Edition and 7th Edition will be included in the new Extended format.

As a result, this means that dual lands will be rotating out of Extended on November 1st, 2002, along with the Ice Age block (including Alliances and Homelands), Mirage Block (including Visions and Weatherlight), and 5th edition. In 2005 the Tempest, Urza's Saga, and Mercadian Masques blocks, as well as 6th Edition, will be rotating out.

We believe this new Extended Format rotation policy will result in a healthy and challenging play environment with a greatly reduced need for card banning.

This made a lot of people very upset. They wanted to play with their duals. So what happened?

They all quit playing Extended and started playing Type 1.5

Type 1.5 eventually became Legacy, the format where the unicorns and dual lands could live in peace and harmony forever.

This is why you will not see them attempt to do anything that involves replacing Legacy with a dual-less format, because you will see a player revolt on a mass scale.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Ban ABU Duals

There's only a few other cards on the list that see substantial play anyways. Sure, some of them are 300 dollar Candelabra's but what can you do?

 

[WanderingWind]

Not really convincing, tbh. Extended isn't even close to what the rumor is. EDM is Eldrich Moon. I'm probably getting the abbreviation wrong. But he leaked that to people online as an advance "see, I'm not full of bullshit."

 

[kirblar]

Not really convincing, tbh. Extended isn't even close to what the rumor is. EDM is Eldrich Moon. I'm probably getting the abbreviation wrong. But he leaked that to people online as an advance "see, I'm not full of bullshit."

This is like saying "God why are people calling for bans without trying to beat it!" when the Eldrazi deck emerged . (The answer: because pros and experienced players are pretty good at sensing when somethings a degenerate format warping pile of complete bullshit.)

Legacy will not be touched because a reserved-list-less legacy effectively KILLS LEGACY, because a major part of Legacy is letting people play with cards like Duals in a world that's not Vintage.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

but if people got to choose between a dead format with Duals or a less powerful legacy w/o them would they cling to the dead format?

 

[Angry Grimace]

If everyone who played Legacy quit it wouldn't be that big of a percentage of players. Legacy Deck Guy and Standard Sucks Guy are the same guy.

 

[kirblar]

but if people got to choose between a dead format with Duals or a less powerful legacy w/o them would they cling to the dead format?

That's the point. The majority wouldn't, but that majority wouldn't include a large % of Legacy's current player base.

You'd then be left with Legacy's current player base (aka the people it's there for) getting enraged and hurt by the change.

We have Modern. We have Legacy. This is good.

 

[charlequin]

How much do you really have to hype a set that is limited and will sell out, even at $10 MSRP a pack (probably be $15 to buy in practice)?

A lot. Internet randos always have a lot of godawful ideas about how WotC could market their sets better but the reality is that these days, they actually have a pretty good idea what they're doing in that department. Their spoiler strategy has been refined a lot over the last two decades and the way they handle it now, both for new and reprint sets, is reasonably close to the "right" way to do it. Announcing a full list months in advance would be much more disruptive to the market than helpful and tank excitement about the set when it actually comes out.

WotC hasn't directly supported Legacy in years, and yet here they are introducing new Legacy only cards?

This is such a tinfoil hat line of thought. Nobody needs to invent elaborate explanations for why WotC would create a set with Legacy playables. It's very straightforward: there are a whole bunch of different categories of players (the tiny number of Vintage players, the less tiny number of Legacy players, anyone who's building a cube, anyone who plays EDH, anyone who likes drafting with old busted cards, Modern players for some of the more recent cards, etc.) that would be interested in the stuff you can put in a reprint set like this, so if you make it a bunch of people buy it and are happy with you.

The real big question to ask about this hypothetical format is what actual purpose it serves. Where's it going to get played? Who's the target market?

but if people got to choose between a dead format with Duals or a less powerful legacy w/o them would they cling to the dead format?

Who are "people"? Cutting out the Reserved List cards doesn't suddenly make Legacy something WotC can run at the highest competitive level. The Legacy player base isn't huge, but there isn't some other demographic actually sitting around waiting to buy 4-5 digit Legacy-Lite decks the second the duals go out.

 

[kirblar]

https://twitter.com/Vendorleak/status/699426063148040192

This part's important. How are they getting multiple internal leakers of stuff like this (photos of future future standard) and Kozilek?

 

[WanderingWind]

This is like saying "God why are people calling for bans without trying to beat it!" when the Eldrazi deck emerged . (The answer: because pros and experienced players are pretty good at sensing when somethings a degenerate format warping pile of complete bullshit.)

Legacy will not be touched because a reserved-list-less legacy effectively KILLS LEGACY, because a major part of Legacy is letting people play with cards like Duals in a world that's not Vintage.

This analogy is so terrible that I have no idea what you're actually trying to say.

This is such a tinfoil hat line of thought. Nobody needs to invent elaborate explanations for why WotC would create a set with Legacy playables. It's very straightforward: there are a whole bunch of different categories of players (the tiny number of Vintage players, the less tiny number of Legacy players, anyone who's building a cube, anyone who plays EDH, anyone who likes drafting with old busted cards, Modern players for some of the more recent cards, etc.) that would be interested in the stuff you can put in a reprint set like this, so if you make it a bunch of people buy it and are happy with you.

The real big question to ask about this hypothetical format is what actual purpose it serves. Where's it going to get played? Who's the target market?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you thought Eternal Masters was a garbage rumor. Maybe I'm wrong, but you calling it "tinfoil thinking" isn't really appropriate. WotC is still figuring out eternal formats. If you think it's beyond them to add a new set of cards they want to sell into their fastest growing format is some synonym for crazy, then I don't know what to say. It's entirely in the realm of possibility regarding their history of trying new ways to grow elements of their model. Modern, MM, extended, the types, adding to Modern with event decks and in standard reprints.

And the audience is the same that already playing modern. I'm assuming - if it were to be true - that the eternal format would supplant, not coincide, with modern.

 

[kirblar]

Legacy is for the players who want to play with Duals and old cards.

Modern exists already for everyone else.

Making reserved list Legacy merely shits on the first group while giving the second a secondary option.

 

[WanderingWind]

Legacy is for the players who want to play with Duals and old cards.

Modern exists already for everyone else.

Making reserved list Legacy merely shits on the first group while giving the second a secondary option.

It doesn't shit on anybody. It introduces more legacy staples into the pool of available cards for legacy players and expands modern by giving everybody else more tools to play with.

Personally, I wouldn't like this change because it'd shake up the format to the point where any of current decks may not be viable. But instead of being reactionary, I'm looking at the company's history regarding non-rotating formats. They have yet to figure it out. There will be changes. Those changes will be made in such a way that it allows them to sell more cards.

Those are the reasons why I'm not willing to dismiss the rumor out of hand. Frankly, it being bullshit wouldn't surprise me. Neither would it being true shock me. I really think it's a 50/50 until officially denied.

 

[kirblar]

If you add Wasteland/FoW to Modern, it's just Legacy Jr. And Legacy Jr. will kill Legacy.

WotC are dumb about a lot of things. This isn't one of them.

 

[Angry Grimace]

WOTC giving info about sets to dealers early is pretty fucking gross though.

Also, Legacy is a garbage format and if you took the duals out of the format it would be the same garbage format except Burn would be marginally better.

 

[WanderingWind]

If you add Wasteland/FoW to Modern, it's just Legacy Jr. And Legacy Jr. will kill Legacy.

WotC are dumb about a lot of things. This isn't one of them.

I'm not sure that introducing new cards to the highest growing format they own, to which they can sell cards directly without crossing the Reserved List, counts as "dumb" for a company.

 

[kirblar]

I'm not sure that introducing new cards to the highest growing format they own, to which they can sell cards directly without crossing the Reserved List, counts as "dumb" for a company.

When those new cards cannibalize a second format, yes, it's dumb.

Crossover staples will exist, and you can add older cards via MMs. Adding EM to it, though? That's insanity.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The concept of buying into a format that costs as much as a running vehicle because like 5 cards might get cheaper sounds like the purest applesauce borne of a lengthy paint-huffing session. Any money you would have "saved" is already gone because you didn't already have dual lands, so buying them now as they spike makes no fucking sense.

Are people not aware the Legacy community is fucking tiny because nobody has the cards? That isn't going to change, ever.

I seriously wonder how some Magic players put food on the table every night.

 

[WanderingWind]

When those new cards cannibalize a second format, yes, it's dumb.

Crossover staples will exist, and you can add older cards via MMs. Adding EM to it, though? That's insanity.

Cannibalizes a second format they're (apparently legally) not allowed to sell the most important parts of? And creates a new opportunity to sell staples to an audience that is magnitudes larger than the one sustained by legacy? It's dumb if you're a Legacy player. It's smart for a company trying to sell cards for money. Bigger audience, growing market, no (apparently) legal concerns. It's a literal win-win-win-win for WotC.

Are people not aware the Legacy community is fucking tiny because nobody has the cards? That isn't going to change, ever.

Hello.

 

[kirblar]

You don't destroy the only format available to people who have duals but who don't have power.

This should not be hard to grasp.

Are people not aware the Legacy community is fucking tiny because nobody has the cards? That isn't going to change, ever.

Correct. And that's ok, because it's in service to those people.

 

[WanderingWind]

You don't destroy the only format available to people who have duals but who don't have power.

This should not be hard to grasp.

I need you to think of this from the perspective of a company trying to make money and not as a fan. If your goal is to sell cards, you absolutely would ignore a small format that doesn't make you money in support of an enormous one that does.

It's odd that you think I'm not grasping something here. I think you're letting your emotional response get in the way of what is very clearly a move a company like WotC could make. They're not here to just "service" a small group of players when they can be expanding their available direct sales. I'm not saying you have to believe the rumor. I am saying that if you can't see how this would be beneficial to WotC, then you're not thinking it through.

 

[charlequin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you thought Eternal Masters was a garbage rumor.

I thought it came from bad sources. There was never anything particularly unbelievable about the concept of the set itself, it's just that 90+% of the time people either get good info or bad info so when they're clearly wrong about something you can toss them out.

If you think it's beyond them to add a new set of cards they want to sell into their fastest growing format is some synonym for crazy, then I don't know what to say.

The idea that the contents of this set -- which, again, we already know contains Force of Will and Wasteland -- are going to get shoved into an established format is like paste-eating tier. It's just so ludicrously disconnected from anything WotC have ever done and from the actual goals they have for Organized Play. This really is a zero-percent chance, it's just bizarre and unsupportable.

The idea of a new format or converting Legacy itself is at least plausible, the problem is that there's no actual reason to do it. The idea that this must be happening to justify EM is bizarre because the set makes perfect sense without any changes to formats, so if it were going to be a thing we'd need some other distinct pitch for why it should exist. Nobody's really offered that up -- what, exactly, does off-brand Legacy get Wizards as part of their broader OP strategy? When you go back to the last change like this, the list of reasons was much clearer (have a non-rotating format that can actually be played competitively, avoiding all the super-broken stuff from early sets, with a cardpool that's 100% reprintable, all to fill the gap created by the death of Extended.) What goals does this new format serve for the OP team?

And the audience is the same that already playing modern. I'm assuming - if it were to be true - that the eternal format would supplant, not coincide, with modern.

That makes even less sense than adding a format. Literally nothing WotC can practically do, Reserved List or no, makes Legacy or anything like Legacy a format they can run in Pro Tours and worldwide GPs in 2016, much less shit like PPTQs. It cannot possibly fill the role that Modern already (successfully) does for WotC.

It's odd that you think I'm not grasping something here. I think you're letting your emotional response get in the way of what is very clearly a move a company like WotC could make. They're not here to just "service" a small group of players when they can be expanding their available direct sales.

This is just the age-old "well WotC secretly want to kill all non-Standard sets because they don't directly sell cards!!" nonsense in a slightly different form. The purpose of non-rotating formats isn't primarily to sell cards directly, it's to extend the average lifespan of each player which over time sells a bunch of cards indirectly. Futzing with Legacy players to sell a single small-printrun set one time would be ludicrously short-sighted (and entirely unnecessary, since that set will sell exactly as well without doing that.)

 

[Transhuman]

I played Hearthstone, am I still welcome here?

 

[kirblar]

I need you to think of this from the perspective of a company trying to make money and not as a fan. If your goal is to sell cards, you absolutely would ignore a small format that doesn't make you money in support of an enormous one that does.

It's odd that you think I'm not grasping something here. I think you're letting your emotional response get in the way of what is very clearly a move a company like WotC could make. They're not here to just "service" a small group of players when they can be expanding their available direct sales. I'm not saying you have to believe the rumor. I am saying that if you can't see how this would be beneficial to WotC, then you're not thinking it through.

I am thinking about it from their perspective.

Legacy is a maintenance program for entrenched players.

It is not designed for everyone. It should not be designed for everyone. If the RL weren't a thing, we could talk about expanding it. But it is and we can't.

Blowing up Legacy is not beneficial to WotC. It destroys consumer confidence, sends a vocal part of the player base rioting, all for incredibly little gain, as Modern already exists and does exactly what they want for an Eternal format (powerful stuff, no FoW making every deck blue.)

I played Hearthstone, am I still welcome here?

Leave your Dr. Boom at the door.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I've literally never met a player who does not crack packs in some form, so the concept that Legacy players "don't spent money on current product" has always stunk of horseshit.

Leave your Dr. Boom at the door.

Magic would be a lot different if tomorrow we could wake up and WOTC could say "as of Tuesday, Eye of Ugin only reduces Eldrazi casting costs by (1) instead of (2) and Eldrazi Temple must be sacrificed to use its second ability."

 

[Firemind]

WOTC giving info about sets to dealers early is pretty fucking gross though.

Also, Legacy is a garbage format and if you took the duals out of the format it would be the same garbage format except Burn would be marginally better.

I know old people who still have their Legacy decks because it'll never go out of style. Modern is ephemeral, Legacy is forever.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Leave your Dr. Boom at the door.

Dr. Boom is gonna rotate anyway soon.

I know old people who still have their Legacy decks because it'll never go out of style. Modern is ephemeral, Legacy is forever.

Didnlt the DTT ban kill Omnitell?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I know old people who still have their Legacy decks because it'll never go out of style. Modern is ephemeral, Legacy is forever.

....if every deck in Legacy stopped having duals, that is exactly what it would be because every deck would have to play shocks instead of true duals. That isn't even a controversial statement.

I mean, look, I'd sympathize if Legacy existed because people wanted to play Jace the Mind Sculptor and attach Jittes to stuff. But mostly what it is is playing lands with no text on them and destroying them.

 

[WanderingWind]

I am thinking about it from their perspective.

Legacy is a maintenance program for entrenched players.

It is not designed for everyone. It should not be designed for everyone. If the RL weren't a thing, we could talk about expanding it. But it is and we can't.

Blowing up Legacy is not beneficial to WotC. It destroys consumer confidence, sends a vocal part of the player base rioting, all for incredibly little gain, as Modern already exists and does exactly what they want for an Eternal format (powerful stuff, no FoW making every deck blue.)

Not really. At least, you're not explaining how very well.

"Consumer confidence" is one of those things that is supremely misunderstood. As a company, sometimes you have to destroy the "confidence" of a segment of your audience. Every single company does it. If they removed the Reserved List it would destroy the "confidence" of a segment of their population. It would restore it to the people who could then give money to WotC. Which is their goal. If not WotC, then most certainly Hasbro.

Blowing up legacy is supremely beneficial to their bottom line. There is no way around that. You can dislike it as a fan, but being able to sell more product to a much, much, much larger audience is good for their bottom line. I don't see how anybody can reasonably disagree. More sales = goal of every corporation on the planet. I just don't know how you can sit there with a straight face and say expanding their potential sales of a segment of their product is "little gain."

I've literally never met a player who does not crack packs in some form, so the concept that Legacy players "don't spent money on current product" has always stunk of horseshit.

Then they're not just legacy players. They're limited, standard, etc, players. Unless they're just cracking packs during like, RtR hoping for to open a Decay or something. But it's not the players that aren't providing money. That's not the argument. The format itself doesn't. Meaning, until now, there hasn't been a direct way for WotC to monetize the format itself. This is the other side of the argument I can see, which is why I'm 50/50 on this rumor. I can honestly see both sides of it.

Once again, since this seems to be getting lost, as a fan of modern, I don't want them to shake up my decks. From a sales perspective, I understand the appeal.

 

[charlequin]

I've literally never met a player who does not crack packs in some form, so the concept that Legacy players "don't spent money on current product" has always stunk of horseshit.

Completely. I think there's two places it comes from: one the one hand you have people who took one economics class and suddenly think they're a supply-demand-curve genius; on the other hand people who want to be mad so badly that they invent things to be mad about (instead of picking any of the many lovely real things to be mad about, for some reason.)

But yes, approximately everyone who actively plays -- and WotC's market research apparently confirms this -- either buys some amount of sealed product per year or buys significant quantities of singles (which is almost as good, since single sales translate back into stores opening product.)

Blowing up legacy is supremely beneficial to their bottom line. There is no way around that.

Yeah, no, this is just complete nonsense. There is no larger audience locked away behind the existence of Legacy.

 

[kirblar]

You don't need to blow up Legacy to sell more product. You just need to sell more Modern product.

Killing the RL lets you sell more Legacy product, yes. That's not a consumer confidence issue, as they've shown themselves to be (too) conservative on reprints.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Speaking of Dig Through Time, fuck that card. Glad it's getting kicked to the curb. I got bodied by a Jeskai player at Game Day who was dead to rights and he top decks a Dig, then pulls out Gideon and removal and eats my lunch.

 

[WanderingWind]

You don't need to blow up Legacy to sell more product. You just need to sell more Modern product.

Killing the RL lets you sell more Legacy product, yes. That's not a consumer confidence issue, as they've shown themselves to be (too) conservative on reprints.

And adding cards to the format would do what with modern? Sell more product. Simple exercise: Force of Will via ETM is made modern legal. Will sales of FoW go up, or down?

 

[Crocodile]

Magic would be a lot different if tomorrow we could wake up and WOTC could say "as of Tuesday, Eye of Ugin only reduces Eldrazi casting costs by (1) instead of (2) and Eldrazi Temple must be sacrificed to use its second ability."

Different and worse. Would pretty much kill/harm every casual format (goodbye Cube!). No thank you.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Speaking of Dig Through Time, fuck that card. Glad it's getting kicked to the curb. I got bodied by a Jeskai player at Game Day who was dead to rights and he top decks a Dig, then pulls out Gideon and removal and eats my lunch.

I really wanna know what they were thinking when designing DTT.

Like why the fuck make it instant speed to boot. Isn't it enough a UR player can hold up damage and counterspells and flash creatures? You're gonna make em be able to hold up all of that in their hand and the top 7 cards of the library.

 

[Firemind]

Didnlt the DTT ban kill Omnitell?

I mean, your Show and Tells and Sneak Attacks will never be worthless. Hi, Splinter Twin!

....if every deck in Legacy stopped having duals, that is exactly what it would be because every deck would have to play shocks instead of true duals. That isn't even a controversial statement.

I mean, look, I'd sympathize if Legacy existed because people wanted to play Jace the Mind Sculptor and attach Jittes to stuff. But mostly what it is is playing lands with no text on them and destroying them.

I mean your assessment that Legacy is a bad format no matter what happens. I don't even own a Legacy deck to know that's bull. The barrier to entry of Legacy is COST. Not because it plays powerful cards, because who doesn't want to play powerful cards?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean, your Show and Tells and Sneak Attacks will never be worthless. Hi, Splinter Twin!


I mean your assessment that Legacy is a bad format no matter what happens. I don't even own a Legacy deck to know that's bull. The barrier to entry of Legacy is COST. Not because it plays powerful cards, because who doesn't want to play powerful cards?

The most popular deck has Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in it.

 

[Ashodin]

Holy shit I just read all the crazy shit about the dealers and cocaine and drugs.

And leaks! The fuck!

 

[A Serious Man]

Nice to see WotC got things under control after the Oath debacle.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Not sure about the credibility but crtainly amusing

Holy shit I just read all the crazy shit about the dealers and cocaine and drugs.

And leaks! The fuck!

link for those interested

https://twitter.com/Vendorleak

 

[ironmang]

The most popular deck has Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in it.

Speaking of Miracles, both it and Lands being so miserable to play against has done a lot to push me away from the format. I seriously never got the hate that Show and Tell decks always receive. Sure, it's dumb and can win by just dropping lands and playing a 3 mana spell with force backup but it has massive problems with cards like cabal therapy and daze. Lands and Miracles combine to be super oppressive to almost every deck and Miracles just keeps getting cards that make it better. Mentor, Council's Judgement, Containment Priest, Dig for awhile, and more to come I'm sure. Something as simple as banning Top would do a lot of good for opening up the format and showing people enjoyable games of magic instead of sitting there watching some asshole "spin top" 3 times on each turn.

Not sure about the credibility but crtainly amusing

https://twitter.com/Vendorleak

I can't imagine what it'd be like to be a small vendor who does a lot of buying and selling. Even with my random playsets of legacy cards I'm in the "sell everything" mindset. If I had dozens of cards like Show and Tell and I wouldn't be able to sleep at night with all these secret leaks and shit going around.