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Magic: the Gathering - Oath o/t Gatewatch |OT| Look again, the mana is now diamonds!

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ElyrionX

Member
At very least I'm in favor of people using less of them. Banning all of them is pretty drastic.

You can't discourage people from using them without banning them. I am actually in favour of banning tutors. They improve redundancy too much in what is suppposed to be a casual format with high variance.


Are you kidding? Think about this for a minute. You're WotC, do you:

a) let an external group who created far and away the most popular casual format ever continue to run it, allowing it to stay super-popular while you make extra money selling decks to the people who play it, or

b) take it over, causing yet another pointless PR flap and pissing off some (more) of your top-level judges, thereby committing to spending actual money developing and maintaining the format when the absolute best-case scenario is that you don't fuck it up and it stays as popular as it would have otherwise.

Making a petulant play to "take over" the format would be a super bone-headed move.

To be fair, there does appear to be more and more people discontent with the RC.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
What I'm hearing is that EDH fans hate shuffling effects just as much as the rest of us. You guys are human after all!
 

alternade

Member
No. Bolt will always resolve and the land will be a 4/1 at some point.

I don't get this either bc if you activate to a 4/1, they bolt, you switch back to 1/4, wouldn't the bolt resolve after the second switch?

Sometimes the rules of this games aren't easily grasped to me
 

JulianImp

Member
I don't get this either bc if you activate to a 4/1, they bolt, you switch back to 1/4, wouldn't the bolt resolve after the second switch?

Sometimes the rules of this games aren't easily grasped to me

Since there's at least one activation below the bolt, there will be a point between ability activations where it's going to be a 4/1 with 3 damage on it. At that time, state-based actions will promptly kill the land due to having lethal damage on it before it gets a chance to switch it's P/T around again into a non-lethal state.
 

ElyrionX

Member
What I'm hearing is that EDH fans hate shuffling effects just as much as the rest of us. You guys are human after all!

It's worse in EDH. Shuffling usually follows tutoring and tutoring involves finding one specific card in a 100-card deck of mostly one-ofs. And then there's the actual physical act of shuffling a massive library of 80-90 cards.
 

red13th

Member
I don't get this either bc if you activate to a 4/1, they bolt, you switch back to 1/4, wouldn't the bolt resolve after the second switch?

Sometimes the rules of this games aren't easily grasped to me

you bolt while the first activation is on the stack, not after it resolved
 
It's worse in EDH. Shuffling usually follows tutoring and tutoring involves finding one specific card in a 100-card deck of mostly one-ofs. And then there's the actual physical act of shuffling a massive library of 80-90 cards.
I once put Soldier of Fortune in an EDH deck for this very reason...
 

ElyrionX

Member
Rule 1 of EDH.

7fHhv7q.jpg
 
Hybrid is supposed to allow you to play a G/U card in a mono G or U deck. When that isnt possiblex you have fucked up your rules.

The example I like to use for what the RC is trying to accomplish here starts with Shadowmoor, because Shadowmoor is what demonstrated the problem to WotC with unrestrained hybrid, much less anyone else.

One of the cycles in Shadowmoor is enchantments that trigger based on colors, with Dire Undercurrents being a representative example:

[img=http://magiccards.info/scans/en/shm/159.jpg]

You can trigger that with Gravelgill Duo:

165.jpg


Which you can double-pump with Glen Elendra Liege:

163.jpg


And all of which, despite in this case being "black" creatures in this case, can be brought back by Crypt Angel:

97.jpg


or pump with Hate Weaver:

147.jpg


And so on, even in a mono-black deck. So yes, the design intent of hybrid is absolutely to let people do all this stuff, play cards in tons of different decks, cheat on color-matters stuff by triggering effects on hybrid cards that are a color you couldn't otherwise play, etc.

But the design intent of Commander isn't to let things work the same way they always do. Battle of Wits and Mirror Gallery are useless in the format. A bunch of different stuff that works normally doesn't, because it's a format with purposely over-restrictive rules to limit options for specific decks. One of those intents is that there are color rules that are restrictive -- you have to pick a general, and then you have to be limited to what that general unlocks for you. That means taking away options that you'd normally have -- like, without the color rules at all, you could make a Sidisi, Undead Vizier deck but play all three Sultai colors in it, but Commander forbids that. Being able to use the hybrids outside of your color is just one of the things that naturally falls into that purposely restrictive set of rules.
 
You can't discourage people from using them without banning them. I am actually in favour of banning tutors. They improve redundancy too much in what is suppposed to be a casual format with high variance.

It's just a lot of work and a ton of complicated judgment calls to ban tutors altogether. Like, would you want to ban Rampant Growth? How about Conflux?

To be fair, there does appear to be more and more people discontent with the RC.

There does? If anything I think people are notably chiller than they used to be. There's no obvious godawful card rampaging over everyone's groups that people desperately want banned (Primeval Titan), there's no obviously reasonable card banned for no reason that people desperately want unbanned (Kokusho), there's no major rules issues people feel strongly about and feel are pressing to address (Bosh-type generals, tuck.) Like any issue is going to sound more dire than it used to because redditors gonna reddit, but I honestly don't feel like there's this big groundswell of dissatisfaction.
 

f0rk

Member
I'm shocked at the number of people I see who still don't understand the U/R manland will always die to a bolt if you ever switch p/t
 
I'm shocked at the number of people I see who still don't understand the U/R manland will always die to a bolt if you ever switch p/t
I think it's tripping people up that you have to let the creature-making ability resolve first before you can bolt it. My understanding is if they switch power and toughness then it can get bolted in response before the switch resolves. But if someone bolts it first and then you switch p/t in response, it survives. But no one is going to do that.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think it's tripping people up that you have to let the creature-making ability resolve first before you can bolt it. My understanding is if they switch power and toughness then it can get bolted in response before the switch resolves. But if someone bolts it first and then you switch p/t in response, it survives. But no one is going to do that.
It starts as a 1/4 not a 4/1.

If makes no difference whether the switching ability resolves or not. If you use it ever and it gets targeted by bolt it will die since you can't prevent it from becoming a 4/1 with 3 damage marked on it.
 

Santiako

Member
It starts as a 1/4 not a 4/1.

If makes no difference whether the switching ability resolves or not. If you use it ever and it gets targeted by bolt it will die since you can't prevent it from becoming a 4/1 with 3 damage marked on it.

Well, no, if they let the switch resolves first (becoming a 4/1) and they bolt it after the fact you can just switch back. If they bolt in response to a switch is when it will die regardless of how many switches you make.

tl;dr: if the stack gets empty with your land a 4/1, its safe from bolt.
 

Fishlake

Member

This image is hilarious. I only play EDH/Commander right now and usually we just tell people to shuffle when there turn is over unless you need to draw. One guy I play with loves to tutor so his turns can take a while. He can tutor to tutor multiple times a turn to reach his goal.
 

Ashodin

Member
Fuck I'm really close to the B/x Eldrazi modern deck, I have almost all the pieces. I want to play it because Sowing your opponents' lands onto your side of the board just feels so fucking good
 
This image is hilarious. I only play EDH/Commander right now and usually we just tell people to shuffle when there turn is over unless you need to draw. One guy I play with loves to tutor so his turns can take a while. He can tutor to tutor multiple times a turn to reach his goal.

I love EDH but this shit is about the most obnoxious way to play.

And it's a format that's almost exclusively obnoxious ways to play.
 

kirblar

Member
Is there a full decklist you'd recommend?
Not so much, it's just that the general shell of cards you should get a hold of ASAP is

Oblivion Sower x4
Blight Herder x4
Wasteland Strangler x4
Eye of Ugin x3 (though you might only run 2)
Eldrazi Temple x4
Relic of Progenitus x4
Scrabbling Claws x4

Relic, Claws, Sower, Temple, and Eye are the ones which are really time sensitive.
 

Ashodin

Member
Dude the deck is so fucking fun, you can get blight herder online so easy (dem fetchlands om nom nom nom) and when you cast Sower, you grab ALL LANDS FROM EXILE not just the lands Sower grabs. So them fetchlands you relic'd turn 1/2? YOURS. Crack em to get your lands, exile em AGAIN
 

kirblar

Member
Anything else killer in that deck? I'm blind buying because YOLO. What else is in there?
Rest of the deck is pretty standard black modern stuff.
Dude the deck is so fucking fun, you can get blight herder online so easy (dem fetchlands om nom nom nom) and when you cast Sower, you grab ALL LANDS FROM EXILE not just the lands Sower grabs. So them fetchlands you relic'd turn 1/2? YOURS. Crack em to get your lands, exile em AGAIN
Crumble to Dust is insane in the B/r version because of this.

I suspect B/r/w might be a good way to go w/ the deck.
 

Ashodin

Member
oh fuck crumble to dust is siiiiiick you're right

Kirblar: that new devoid land would go straight into the deck methinks. It lets you cast any color for devoid/colorless cards.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Alright, bought 'em. I've been bored with my decks and wanted to try something new. Thanks for the heads up kirbs and Keru.
 

kirblar

Member
but it's just a black wrath of god

what cares about regeneration anyway besides thrun
They moved Wraths to 5cc as a permanent standard change. (This is a good thing - Gatecrash nonsense was that way in large part because of Supreme Verdict.) I suspect this blew up a penciled-in Damnation reprint.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Disagree heavily about 4CMC wraths being too OP. 5 CMC is more or less unplayable without some additional effect. 4CMC is the perfect answer to metas that are too front end heavy on aggro. Supreme Verdict wasn't even remotely a problem card. It's another one of their self-declared answers to questions nobody asked like getting rid of 1CMC mana dorks. LLanowar Elves is not OP. BoP is not OP. Wrath of God is not OP. Having good cards doesn't make for a stale format.
 

kirblar

Member
Disagree heavily about 4CMC wraths being too OP. 5 CMC is more or less unplayable without some additional effect. 4CMC is the perfect answer to metas that are too front end heavy on aggro. Supreme Verdict wasn't even remotely a problem card. It's another one of their self-declared answers to questions nobody asked like getting rid of 1CMC mana dorks. LLanowar Elves is not OP. BoP is not OP. Wrath of God is not OP. Having good cards doesn't make for a stale format.
The issue is 4cc Wraths on the play (especially an uncounterable one), and what aggro cards get printed as a response to them being in the format.

GTC decks were miserable in limited AND constructed. Those Naya humans decks that just killed you on T4 w little chance of interaction were beyond miserable.They existed in large part because on the draw, you needed to kill by then or your board was gone.
 

Crocodile

Member
The issue is 4cc Wraths on the play (especially an uncounterable one), and what aggro cards get printed as a response to them being in the format.

GTC decks were miserable in limited AND constructed. Those Naya humans decks that just killed you on T4 w little chance of interaction were beyond miserable.They existed in large part because on the draw, you needed to kill by then or your board was gone.

They could have solved this by making the aggro decks more resilient instead of faster. Nobody to blame but themselves I feel.

That and aggro decks have been very successful in the past without crossing any lines in the past with 4 mana Wraths around too. What exactly changed? I find it hard to imagine the control cards overall got "too good" all of a sudden.
 
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