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[Angry Grimace]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/c..._may_be_cracking_down_on_unsanctioned/cyvzi9d

"Your fun is impacting [massive corporation]'s bottom line, so stop it."

-Man who professionally goes by the name "Trick" in 2016

 

[kirblar]

Its not hard to see why they dont want this stuff going on in stores.

Stores are meant to sell new cards. Thats how they make money from these stores.

Unless im ignorant on something, thats all that comes down to, and with magic getting bigger, these things will get tighter,

In my area, these are casual competitive practice tournaments. They're not a replacement.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Jace cards are busted not because of some Hasbro Edict to make the FACE OF OUR GAME super good, but more likely because Jace's mechanical identity is all the busted shit blue has historically done.

Jace 1 straight up draws cards, Jace 2 straight up has Brainstorm as a "0" (amongst his other broken shit), Jace 3 can both draw cards and mill your opponent out in 3 turns, and Jace 4 can do small Fact of Fictions twice. Jace 6 is en Eternal staple that has a Snapcaster ability that costs 0 mana to activate on it.

People mis-evaluated Flip Jace for a lot of reasons, but the big ones are that it was hard to evaluate Flipwalkers to begin with since they'd never been done and the big comparison was to Snapcaster Mage, which can do stuff at instant speed. Except what we didn't consider was that losing instant speed in exchange for getting the ability for free is super good. I think those are chief, but there's other reasons, e.g. his plus seems worthless even though it isn't, and "Merfolk Looter that can't attack" seems lame to start with.

 

[Giant Panda]

Does Boom/Bust interact with Goblin Dark-Dwellers like Cascade/BBE did?

edit: I am being told it does.

BUY A SET OF BOOM BUST NOW.

What interaction is this? You can cast the Bust side of the card for free?

 

[kirblar]

What interaction is this? You can cast the Bust side of the card for free?

Yuuuuuup.

As long as one half is CMC 3 or under, you can cast either half for free.

 

[Firemind]

Yuuuuuup.

As long as one half is CMC 3 or under, you can cast either half for free.

oh wow

and you don't even need to get lucky and hit it with bbe

 

[kirblar]

Yuuuup.

If Blood Moon isn't banned.... Boom/Bust Zoo is back.

 

[Yeef]

Cool cool.

Laying in bed last night, I came up with the idea that UG/w allies are a potential thing now.

Munda's Vanguard is stupid powerful if you can use it twice in one turn (cough cough Kiora).

Got a new card here, tutors up an Equip only if you have none.

And then there's a simple card that matches up P/T for balance help.

The ox could stand to have higher toughness. In limited, it's a super narrow ability and isn't a very good blocker. In constructed, there are better cards that do the same thing.

Grow Equally is a nightmare because of the way layers work. Effects that set base power and toughness are taken into account before effects that modify power and toughness.

Let's just use the Ox as an example. An 0/2.
If you play grow equally when it has no buffs, it'll become a 2/2 until end of turn, which is what I assume you intended. However, if you play this when the Ox is equipped with, say, a Spidersilk Net it's final power and toughness would be 2/4, not 4/4 as you'd expect. Things get even stranger when you add power boosting effects. If the Ox were under the effect of a Titan's Strength (+3/+1) then you played Grow Equally on it, it's final power and toughness would be 5/3.

 

[Yeef]

Set's up on Gatherer for those of you that care about that sort of thing: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?sort=cn+&set=[%22Oath%20of%20the%20Gatewatch%22]

 

[Ashodin]

Mm, thanks for the feedback, I'll try to fix the templating on Grow Equally to make it work as intended.

And Loadbearing Ox can go up to 0/3, yeah.

 

[Crocodile]

Is WOTC becoming more tone deaf over time or have they always been this clumsy when dealing with community issues? If you're going to actively dick over proxied unsanctioned tournaments then at least REPEAL THE FUCKING RESERVE LIST.

I bought it as soon as it was released since it was a snap Cube include. 14 bucks!

*high five*

I insta-snapped one up for Cube since it was such an easy snap include. Probably should have picked up multiples though.

Its not hard to see why they dont want this stuff going on in stores.

Stores are meant to sell new cards. Thats how they make money from these stores.

Unless im ignorant on something, thats all that comes down to, and with magic getting bigger, these things will get tighter,

Proxies don't really compete with the real product. They are almost always for testing or for proxy tournaments. This is a non-issue WOTC is throwing a fit over.

 

[kirblar]

They've always been tone deaf. But it definitely seems like a lot of things are changing up behind the scenes (shitty Origins + art, website stuff, this debacle) where new people are coming in and trying to change things.

 

[The Technomancer]

Hmmm

"When enchanted creature attacks it gets +X/+0 until end of turn where X is its toughness minus its power (X can't be negative)"? Does that work?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Re: Jace: AJs article is spot on. We underestimated Jace because he does so many different things and we couldn't wrap our heads around his power and flexibility without getting our hands on him. Plus, Merfolk Looter has been "too good" for a while, so they haven't printed one, so we forgot just how good it actually is. To be honest, I don't think he's as good in eternal as the current hype suggests, but he does still have a role to play there.

Re: Dark Dwellers: I don't know if a Boom//Bust deck will come out of that, but it's reasonable enough to consider. I would definitely take Kirblar's advice and snatch up a set if you like LD at all.

Re: Proxies: WotC has a history of making decisions I disagree with, but can understand and respect. This business, along with the absurd overreaction to the leaks, is totally different. It's something where I can see their logic, but it's applied in such a heavy-handed way and delivered with such a condescending tone that I can't help but have this immediate visceral reaction that makes me legitimately mad. Scribbling "Ancestral Recall" on a plains so that I can enjoy one of the finest experiences Magic has to offer is not counterfeiting. Vintage shouldn't have to be an exclusive club for the super rich. I'm not suggesting that they reprint Black Lotus, but stop depriving people who just want to enjoy the damn game of the ability to do just that. It's ducking absurd (thanks autocorrect).

 

[Hero]

Picked up a set of Boom/Bust, not sure if GDD can break that card as badly as BBE did but just in case I don't want to see the card spike up to 10 dollars per when I can pick up a playset for that price now.

Also, I don't play Standard at all but is 4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar good for 60 USD right now?

 

[kirblar]

That's an absurd price, grab it.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Picked up a set of Boom/Bust, not sure if GDD can break that card as badly as BBE did but just in case I don't want to see the card spike up to 10 dollars per when I can pick up a playset for that price now.

Also, I don't play Standard at all but is 4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar good for 60 USD right now?

TCG Mid is $22 per copy. So yes, it's a fantastic deal.

 

[Hero]

That's an absurd price, grab it.

TCG Mid is $22 per copy. So yes, it's a fantastic deal.

Haha, I know, I was kind of baffled since on eBay there were playsets going for 80+ but wasn't sure if he's expected to crash or something.

I guess I play Abzan now?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Speaking of transactions, I'm still dealing with this dude that stole my Force of Will on a deckbox trade two months ago. He kept making weird promises, but I finally got fed up with it and reported him to the postal service, his regional MTG coordinator and the owner of the local shop he plays at(I found him on facebook).

I just want my goddamn cards at this point.

 

[ThLunarian]

Just bought 7 Boom/Busts.

My speculation strategy is to buy 7-8 copies of a card before it shoots up, then when it does, keep a playset and cash out of the rest so it's like I got the playset for free.

So far I haven't been able to fully test the strategy I didn't buy enough Eye of Ugin to have any extra to cash out, and I have to wait for the Dark Dwellers and Boom/Busts to go up.

That foil Delay I bought is currently going for triple what I bought it for on eBay, though. It's probably time to try to unload it.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Just bought 7 Boom/Busts.

My speculation strategy is to buy 7-8 copies of a card before it shoots up, then when it does, keep a playset and cash out of the rest so it's like I got the playset for free.

So far I haven't been able to fully test the strategy I didn't buy enough Eye of Ugin to have any extra to cash out, and I have to wait for the Dark Dwellers and Boom/Busts to go up.

That foil Delay I bought is currently going for triple what I bought it for on eBay, though. It's probably time to try to unload it.

And this is why there are so many "buyouts" in Modern lately. It's not SCG; it's the sum effect of players (wisely) making small spec purchases.

 

[aidan]

And this is why there are so many "buyouts" in Modern lately. It's not SCG; it's the sum effect of players (wisely) making small spec purchases.

Yep. I'm not in it to make money. But if a playable Modern card all of a sudden seems like it might spike, I'll buy a playset to make sure I can play with it in the future. It doesn't take a lot of people doing the same to clear out the cards available online.

 

[Jhriad]

Its not hard to see why they dont want this stuff going on in stores.

Stores are meant to sell new cards. Thats how they make money from these stores.

Unless im ignorant on something, thats all that comes down to, and with magic getting bigger, these things will get tighter,

This reddit post on the first page of the Magic subreddit is actually from my LGS. The way they set it up, if you wanted to proxy cards you could proxy a small number and past that you were charged something like ten cents per proxy. That would then be added to your store credit so that you could use it to, presumably, buy into a Modern deck once you figured out what you wanted to play. Nothing was stopping those folks from using that credit to buy packs or whatever else and in turn sending money WOTC's way. The community here isn't big enough to have a large Magic scene so this was a good way to get folks to try out other formats and actually get things like Modern nights to draw enough folks to fire. They were great ways to get folks into the store, trying new formats, and engaging with the local Magic scene. At least that was my understanding of the situation.

 

[Attleborotaco]

So with the upcoming set, i suspect Kozileks Return is going to be making its way into the Modern Black Eldrazi Deck. With it then becoming Black Red, what other red cards are gonna be added to it do you think?

 

[Ashodin]

Definitely going to buy 8 Boom/Busts if I can. This is some sage ass advice lol

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm enjoying this limited format quite a bit more than BFZ so far. Lots of interesting cards and it feels pretty flat in terms of power level. Only got a few drafts in though.

 

[Ashodin]

Snagged 8 boom/busts, and I'm guaranteed a playset of Dark dwellers. WOO

 

[ElyrionX]

Do the land packs from the OGW fat packs have Wastes?

 

[WanderingWind]

Snagged 8 boom/busts, and I'm guaranteed a playset of Dark dwellers. WOO

no ashodin, u r the demons

 

[charlequin]

Jace cards are busted not because of some Hasbro Edict to make the FACE OF OUR GAME super good, but more likely because Jace's mechanical identity is all the busted shit blue has historically done.

Yeah, Jace's consistent brokenness vs. Chandra's consistent underwhelmination is pretty much the blue vs. red mechanical territory issue in miniature.

Is WOTC becoming more tone deaf over time or have they always been this clumsy when dealing with community issues?

WotC's never been particularly good at crisis management but a lot of these issues are magnified by the internet. Now instead of just making a foolish and offensive decision like cracking down on proxy tournaments, they're doing that and making tone-deaf defense of it in public.

They've always been tone deaf. But it definitely seems like a lot of things are changing up behind the scenes (shitty Origins + art, website stuff, this debacle) where new people are coming in and trying to change things.

The plus side of being one of Hasbro's biggest brands is that they've (finally) started to have money thrown at them to solve some of their ongoing problems; the downside is that all of a sudden stuff they could slide on due to lack of prying eyes before is suddenly getting all corporatized.

They were great ways to get folks into the store, trying new formats, and engaging with the local Magic scene. At least that was my understanding of the situation.

Yeah, this is an accurate understanding of how these things functioned.

A lot of the time in the past I've seen people offer pretty silly complaints about WotC's format strategy, based on the idea that they only want Standard to ever be supported. That's not true now and it's never been true; players who only play Standard are unreliable customers, because when you put out a bad block they quit the game entirely. It's always been in WotC's best interest to stoke the flames on non-rotating formats because they keep people who've played for a long time potentially invested.

What I think most people didn't really notice is what WotC's support for Modern really meant. Now that they have a real, successful, non-Reserved non-rotating format that's widely played, they no longer have any use for Legacy and Vintage and they've wasted no time destroying them.

 

[WanderingWind]

I think most people understand that about modern, actually. That was actually the great concern when modern was first announced - that it'd kill off legacy. It seems pretty obvious that it was a direct reaction to their unwillingness to get rid of the reserved list. But sadly for them, this is not a genie you can put back in the bottle. Trick needs to be reigned in hard. He's absolutely terrible at community communication - and it has nothing to do with the message being delivered. He's once again treating the community like their idiot children and it's really embarrassing.

 

[Crocodile]

Yeah, this is an accurate understanding of how these things functioned.

A lot of the time in the past I've seen people offer pretty silly complaints about WotC's format strategy, based on the idea that they only want Standard to ever be supported. That's not true now and it's never been true; players who only play Standard are unreliable customers, because when you put out a bad block they quit the game entirely. It's always been in WotC's best interest to stoke the flames on non-rotating formats because they keep people who've played for a long time potentially invested.

What I think most people didn't really notice is what WotC's support for Modern really meant. Now that they have a real, successful, non-Reserved non-rotating format that's widely played, they no longer have any use for Legacy and Vintage and they've wasted no time destroying them.

That's kind of a big problem for the people who like those formats or want to enter them though. Like I really don't get the logic that it's "better" to outright stop some people from playing your game than overturn a shitty, non-legally binding promise everybody understands you made in desperation. Like I know its not actually offensive but......it feels a bit offensive :/

 

[The Technomancer]

That's kind of a big problem for the people who like those formats or want to enter them though. Like I really don't get the logic that it's "better" to outright stop some people from playing your game than overturn a shitty, non-legally binding promise everybody understands you made in desperation. Like I know its not actually offensive but......it feels a bit offensive :/

There is something genuinely weird behind the continued existence of the Reserved List that I'm not sure we'll ever get to know

 

[pigeon]

That's kind of a big problem for the people who like those formats or want to enter them though. Like I really don't get the logic that it's "better" to outright stop some people from playing your game than overturn a shitty, non-legally binding promise everybody understands you made in desperation. Like I know its not actually offensive but......it feels a bit offensive :/

This is a big part of why I think it's actually some sort of legally binding commitment. It's either that or the fear of some sort of weird lawsuit. Personally I think an existing agreement is more likely and explains the overt secrecy, although as quin has pointed out previously, it's hard (but not completely impossible) to imagine how WotC would end up legally obligated to maintain the Reserved List with nobody publicly knowing why.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Duxstar was salty that he lost to my "terrible draft deck with like two good cards" 3-0.

He also seems to think Malakir Familiar is a legitimately bad card so I dunno. I definitely think anything that hits for two in the air and trades with eldrazi is above average in this format.

He did lose to Angelic Gift and Retreat to Hagra which I think tilted him a little, though. Angelic Gift is a legitimately fine card and Retreat is an above-average 1-of in a theme deck like this. There's a couple cards I'd rather not be playing(like vile aggregate just being not great in this deck), but I'll take what I can get when black started to get tight towards the end of the 2nd pack.

I think my deck wound up around a 4/5. Lots of high pick archetype cards like double emissary, some solid removal and fixing and a bomb in the blademaster. Also a lot of reach with drain effects which is always a way to end games in aggro when things slow down.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Tried draftsim and this sure does look like a plausible deck to be able to draft

Oh and 3-0'd my first Mirrodin draft and then 0-1'd the next 3 but got a chalice of the void a charbelcher and a glimmervoid so they were basically free.

 

[charlequin]

So yeah, this proxy thing is definitely gonna have some wide-reaching implications:

That's kind of a big problem for the people who like those formats or want to enter them though. Like I really don't get the logic that it's "better" to outright stop some people from playing your game than overturn a shitty, non-legally binding promise everybody understands you made in desperation.

It's Hasbro lawyers who made the decision and put everyone in WotC under gag order not to talk about it, so I think they really do have no choice in the matter. I would bet Legacy-deck-money that it's due either to a belief they're vulnerable to being sued over estoppel or that it's related to maintaining a consistent Hasbro-wide position that's relevant to a similar "official but not official official" promise attached to a different part of the company. I am extremely confident that there isn't a backroom deal of some kind that's secretly keeping it in place.

 

[Ashodin]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah I'm just going to say that this is a pretty bad move on their part. It sucks, and sounds like Hasbro is clearly cracking down on things (considering if you read the previous stance Wizards had from their website when Aaron Forsythe himself went to a proxy tournament).

 

[kirblar]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/sunday-1230-pm-%E2%80%93-sights-vintage-2013-11-03

lolololololol

 

[Crocodile]

So yeah, this proxy thing is definitely gonna have some wide-reaching implications:

It's Hasbro lawyers who made the decision and put everyone in WotC under gag order not to talk about it, so I think they really do have no choice in the matter. I would bet Legacy-deck-money that it's due either to a belief they're vulnerable to being sued over estoppel or that it's related to maintaining a consistent Hasbro-wide position that's relevant to a similar "official but not official official" promise attached to a different part of the company. I am extremely confident that there isn't a backroom deal of some kind that's secretly keeping it in place.

Isn't lawyer paranoia grand I guess?

Anyway, going by that store posting above, is this tweet by Helene just a lie then?

Also, why is WOTC promoting an SCG Premium video that uses proxies?

What are you doing WOTC?

 

[Ashodin]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/sunday-1230-pm-%E2%80%93-sights-vintage-2013-11-03

lolololololol

:/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/ :/

 

[Firemind]

Yeah, no one is going to give two fucks here if you use proxies.

Yeah, Jace's consistent brokenness vs. Chandra's consistent underwhelmination is pretty much the blue vs. red mechanical territory issue in miniature.

The funny thing is that a reverse Jace in red would have been printable (discard first and +2/+0) but it would have to cost three mana.

 

[GoutPatrol]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/sunday-1230-pm-%E2%80%93-sights-vintage-2013-11-03

lolololololol

Whatever you choose, you're sure to have an immense amount of fun playing with all of these high-powered Vintage cards. If you're worried about being able to get your hands on the cards (they are fairly hard to come by), talk to your local store owner or TO about hosting a proxy tournament! They're not able to be sanctioned, but they're a great way to enjoy Vintage fun and get a chance to experience this unique, incredibly rich format!

Fuck Wizards

 

[G.ZZZ]

Jace suffer from being always undercosted by 1 while chandra suffer from being always overcosted by 1. That's "mechanical" identity of the colors

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

WoTC is really looking like a crappy company right now.

Makes me feel good about handing them a lot of money for at least 2 prereleases, a box and a fatpack...

Also whoever made this

is awful at their job, not the artist, and that playmat is really fugly.

 

[El Topo]

Jace suffer from being always undercosted by 1 while chandra suffer from being always overcosted by 1. That's "mechanical" identity of the colors

I somewhat agree. There's absolutely nothing stopping them from making an interesting Chandra, or at least one that is better priced.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Holy fuck WOTC has been having a lot of Wizard Scandals recently they need to fire someone in HR e.g. stop letting people who professionally call themselves "Trick" from talking on their behalf

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

This is a big part of why I think it's actually some sort of legally binding commitment. It's either that or the fear of some sort of weird lawsuit. Personally I think an existing agreement is more likely and explains the overt secrecy, although as quin has pointed out previously, it's hard (but not completely impossible) to imagine how WotC would end up legally obligated to maintain the Reserved List with nobody publicly knowing why.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel

Basically even though the Reserved List isn't legally binding they can still be held to the promise. While it's not his current byline, MaRo has insinuated this is the case before.

 

[pigeon]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel

Basically even though the Reserved List isn't legally binding they can still be held to the promise. While it's not his current byline, MaRo has insinuated this is the case before.

This is the conversation I had with quin before. I don't think that this is particularly likely myself because it makes no sense to have a gag order if your goal is to prevent future suits. You're better off, ESPECIALLY for estoppel, talking about the subject a lot because the entire justification for an estoppel claim would be that WotC didn't communicate its intentions well enough to protect buyers. So if WotC had just spent the past five years talking about how they would eventually do reprints then it would be hard to sue them when they do it and claim you didn't have knowledge in time to avoid the loss.

I convinced quin that my theory was at least plausible before but I forgot how so I'm sad that he also forgot

 

[Angry Grimace]

Picked up a set of Boom/Bust, not sure if GDD can break that card as badly as BBE did but just in case I don't want to see the card spike up to 10 dollars per when I can pick up a playset for that price now.

Also, I don't play Standard at all but is 4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar good for 60 USD right now?

I mean you can just cast Bring to Light for it also but nobody does that, well I mean except if you wanna go FIVE COLOR BONANZA

1 Spellskite
1 Archangel of Thune
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Restoration Angel
1 Spike Feeder
1 Thragtusk
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

3 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
1 Boom
4 Bring to Light
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tidings

1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Shambling Vent
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:

1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Kor Firewalker
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Slaughter Games
1 Supreme Verdict