Support NeoGAF

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Leaving copycat aside the state of standard is pretty bad. I went through most of the cards in standard looking for artifacts, sac outlets, strong 2 drops and more and the quality of creatures are very much in favour of green and black and particular in green black gold cards. Pia needed to cost 2 to compete with the likes of Grim Flayer and Rishkar.

 

[Ashodin]

Leaving copycat aside the state of standard is pretty bad. I went through most of the cards in standard looking for artifacts, sac outlets, strong 2 drops and more and the quality of creatures are very much in favour of green and black and particular in green black gold cards. Pia needed to cost 2 to compete with the likes of Grim Flayer and Rishkar.

Green has remained strong ever since Khans

 

[Jhriad]

In a previous article didn't they say they expected Saheeli to see more play during Kaladesh standard than she did? If that's the case, you'd think they'd test Aether Revolt with whatever Saheeli junk they were running internally.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Burn it down.

Seriously, they need to massively revise their policies on testing if this crap is making it through.

Yup, Burn down the testing department. If they fucking Missed COPYCAT of all fucking interactions, that's beyond "missing the forest for the trees".

 

[Ashodin]

It's clear development have a clear cut vision as to what decks show up in standard and don't test for anything else.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Do they at least have switching teams. Does FFL and FL switch around or is it the same people doing both? If it's the latter that's even more stupid.

 

[kirblar]

It's clear development have a clear cut vision as to what decks show up in standard and don't test for anything else.

Yeah, tunnel vision seems to be a big issue.

 

[Yeef]

Do they at least have switching teams. Does FFL and FL switch around or is it the same people doing both? If it's the latter that's even more stupid.

Future League isn't a thing anymore (and hasn't been for a long time) as far as I know.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The reason why pros played BG and Mardu is that Fumigate isn't a playable card in the format.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The reason why pros played BG and Mardu is that Fumigate isn't a playable card in the format.

If you board into Fumigate they can board into PW Midrange.

 

[Angry Grimace]

If you board into Fumigate they can board into PW Midrange.

Fumigate being a bad card lends itself to something like the Snake deck working. It's not a great strategy in a lot of formats.

 

[Jhriad]

Ian Duke Deck Tech cue Ian saying some variation of "Seems like a good deck to bring to FNM!" Then Ian smiles at the camera and implores you to attend FNM with his sad, pleading eyes.

 

[Violet_0]

The reason why pros played BG and Mardu is that Fumigate isn't a playable card in the format.

BG would be rather vulnerable to Fumigate, no? Board wipes should be the natural counter to mid-range creature-heavy decks decks

 

[Angry Grimace]

BG would be rather vulnerable to Fumigate, no? Board wipes should be the natural counter to mid-range creature-heavy decks decks

Well yeah, that's what I mean - the strategy requires you to over-extend. If you can always get away with it, then its a good to great deck.

 

[alternade]

lol they MISSED COPYCAT.

Well they cant knowingly put infinite combos in standard, but for some reason i'm ok with things falling through the cracks like this every once in a while. Makes standard interesting in a way.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Leaving copycat aside the state of standard is pretty bad. I went through most of the cards in standard looking for artifacts, sac outlets, strong 2 drops and more and the quality of creatures are very much in favour of green and black and particular in green black gold cards. Pia needed to cost 2 to compete with the likes of Grim Flayer and Rishkar.

Standard is really cool if you take Cat out, actually.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Alright I know what EDH deck I will build next

Only fetchlands and cycling lands, bunch of ramp and value creatures. Wildfire and not the portal card of the same effect because I'm sure it's ridiculously expensive. Maybe valakut and scapeshift, couple stax effects for sure.

Standard is really cool if you take Cat out, actually.

there's cool options but the colour balance is really out of whack.

 

[Jhriad]

I'm assuming this Segovia fellow is a MTGO player and he wasn't intending to shortcut to attacks but moving to that 'Beginning of Combat' step or something.

Either that or he's just not real familiar with Vehicles.

 

[Santiako]

Alright I know what EDH deck I will build next


Only fetchlands and cycling lands, bunch of ramp and value creatures. Wildfire and not the portal card of the same effect because I'm sure it's ridiculously expensive. Maybe valakut and scapeshift, couple stax effects for sure.

there's cool options but the balance is really out of whack.

That sounds cool. Burning of Xinye was reprinted in FTV so it's like 1.50 now lol

 

[Violet_0]

I'm assuming this Segovia fellow is a MTGO player and he wasn't intending to shortcut to attacks but moving to that 'Beginning of Combat' step or something.

Either that or he's just not real familiar with Vehicles.

I suspect there was a communication/language issue. If the whole thing was digital there wouldn't be any confusion

e: oh alright he didn't crew heart of kiran before start of combat. And lost the match because of this

 

[GregLombardi]

That ruling is absolute trash.

You can't change the game of magic the gathering by "shortcutting" verbal cues. Verbal communication is not digital communication. That is absolute useless trash and Wizards needs to get its shit and judges in order.

 

[OnPoint]

So about those intro decks, this is an intro deck card, right?

lol

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The "go to combat" shortcut is pretty universally accepted in both regular and competitive REL. Even the way he argued with his trigger wouldn't have worked since Heart of Kiran needed to be a creature to even be an eligible target for the triggered ability.
In Magic online you would have passed the beginning of combat as well if there was no target for the trigger.

 

[charlequin]

You can't change the game of magic the gathering by "shortcutting" verbal cues.

I missed it, what happened exactly?

 

[GregLombardi]

The go to combat shortcut is pretty universally accepted in both regular and competitive REL. Even the way he argued with his trigger wouldn't have worked since Heart of Kiran needed to be a creature to even be an eligible target for the triggered ability.
In Magic online you would have passed the beginning of combat as well if there was no target for the trigger.

But you're talking about making rules based on what may or may not be the standard method of communication of a human. You can't just shortcut words or thoughts of a person, even if you could do so digitally. That is absolutely ridiculous.

I am a player that ALWAYS says "enter combat", and I still think universal acceptance of moving a person past several points of priority in a phase makes absolutely 0 sense unless they explicitly say "declare attackers". In fact, even if you go into the rules of magic, declaring attackers is specifically referenced as a step within the phase. Why should we verbally assume that everyone wishes to move to that declaration when they don't say the declaration in the first place?

I missed it, what happened exactly?

Basically Cesar said "combat", and the judge, the player, and the head judge decided he meant "declare attackers".

Completely different verbal meanings to me, not to mention that Cesar isn't a native speaker. You can't choose to suddenly erect verbal shortcuts in a game, and it is exactly for this reason, as mistakes are going to be made.

 

[Yeef]

You can't change the game of magic the gathering by "shortcutting" verbal cues. Verbal communication is not digital communication. That is absolute useless trash and Wizards needs to get its shit and judges in order.

But, you can...

Or do you always announce each time you pass priority.

In this case, the "combat" shortcut of moving to declare attackers is there to prevent opportunities for abuse from the active player. If the active player says "combat" and means, "move to beginning of combat step," if the other player responds, then we're actually still in the main phase. It's on the active player to specify "move to combat and trigger" or "move to combat and hold priority."

The real issue, in this particular case, is the language barrier, I think. It's unfortunate, because I think he would have taken that game if not for that.

[EDIT]

But you're talking about making rules based on what may or may not be the standard method of communication of a human.

You can and they did. it's part of the Magic Tournament Rules, which players playing in a tournament are required to follow. There's a whole section on communication that outlines these things.

 

[Lucario]

I missed it, what happened exactly?

Segovia played a Weldfast Engineer, said "go to combat".

This shortcut means "go to declare attackers" - and not "go to beginning of combat" - so he missed his beneficial trigger and was unable to crew his vehicle.

edit: Before the rule was created, you'd be able to say "attack" to get your opponent to use a reactive spell/ability, and have it be interpreted as them using it in your main phase because it wasn't specifically stated.

This is so much worse than that.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/whatsupdocs/2016/05/26/attacking-blocking-and-shortcuts/

 

[Jhriad]

The "go to combat" shortcut is pretty universally accepted in both regular and competitive REL. Even the way he argued with his trigger wouldn't have worked since Heart of Kiran needed to be a creature to even be an eligible target for the triggered ability.
In Magic online you would have passed the beginning of combat as well if there was no target for the trigger.

The way I read it he would've pumped a scrounger and attacked with Heart and Scrounger(s). I wasn't paying real close attention to the little we could hear of the ruling discussion.

 

[y2dvd]

So about those intro decks, this is an intro deck card, right?

lol

Those cards are legal?

 

[OnPoint]

Those cards are legal?

As far as I understand it, yes.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Segovia played a Weldfast Engineer, said "go to combat".

This shortcut means "go to declare attackers" - and not "go to beginning of combat" - so he missed his beneficial trigger and was unable to crew his vehicle.

In what universe is "go to combat" not "go to beginining of combat step."

If that's the case, dude got hosed because out of the two possible steps, only one of them has the word "combat" in the title of the step.

 

[Yeef]

Everything in the Planeswalker decks and anything in the welcome decks are legal in the standard with the corresponding expansion it was released with.

 

[kirblar]

In what universe is "go to combat" not "go to beginining of combat step."

If that's the case, dude got hosed because out of the two possible steps, only one of them has the word "combat" in the title of the step.

As the active player you don't actually want to do anything proactive in the beginning of combat step. You'd prefer it in your main.

 

[Infinite Stars]

In what universe is "go to combat" not "go to beginining of combat step."

If that's the case, dude got hosed because out of the two possible steps, only one of them has the word "combat" in the title of the step.

I 100% Agree. Go to Combat=Move to the Combat phase, not "Declare Attackers".

Edit: Not entirely true, Kirblar. Whatever the 1/2 Dwarf from Kaladesh can crew 3 Skysovereign during the beginning of Combat. That's an example of when you want to do something proactive.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

But you're talking about making rules based on what may or may not be the standard method of communication of a human. You can't just shortcut words or thoughts of a person, even if you could do so digitally. That is absolutely ridiculous.

I am a player that ALWAYS says "enter combat", and I still think universal acceptance of moving a person past several points of priority in a phase makes absolutely 0 sense unless they explicitly say "declare attackers". In fact, even if you go into the rules of magic, declaring attackers is specifically referenced as a step within the phase. Why should we verbally assume that everyone wishes to move to that declaration when they don't say the declaration in the first place?

If you want to play Magic completely by the rules it's a tedious experience. We rely on a ton of shortcuts, if we go by just the verbal cue "combat" nothing happens at all. It's no passing priority, it doesn't say where you want to end up,...

Basically Cesar said "combat", and the judge, the player, and the head judge decided he meant "declare attackers".

Completely different verbal meanings to me, not to mention that Cesar isn't a native speaker. You can't choose to suddenly erect verbal shortcuts in a game, and it is exactly for this reason, as mistakes are going to be made.

He also argued that he was still in beginning of combat because he has a trigger from the weldfast engineer. Which didn't help his argument, since he didn't crew Heart of Kiran in time. It's unfortunate he missed out on the 4 damage that would have been lethal.

 

[Lucario]

In what universe is "go to combat" not "go to beginining of combat step."

If that's the case, dude got hosed because out of the two possible steps, only one of them has the word "combat" in the title of the step.

it's a fix to another feel-bad angle-shooting situation.

IMO the current ruling is much worse and significantly less intuitive. Practically every player at my fairly competitive LGS uses "go to combat" as "go to beginning of combat step".

 

[Angry Grimace]

As the active player you don't actually want to do anything proactive in the beginning of combat step. You'd prefer it in your main.

He wanted to make a different illegal play - he wanted to put Weldfast's trigger on the Heart of Kiran. The correct way to do this is to crew the Heart in your main phase and apply the trigger at Combat when it happens.

 

[Jhriad]

As the active player you don't actually want to do anything proactive in the beginning of combat step. You'd prefer it in your main.

Eh, I think he attempted moved to Begin Combat so that the trigger would be put on the stack. Essentially he was giving Thien the chance to use removal at the end of the Main Phase to deny the trigger on the Weldfast before Crewing, and thus exposing Heart to potential removal, rather than saving removal for the bigger long term threat of Heart of Kiran.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Still think Dynavolt Tower is not a real card.

Eh, I think he attempted moved to Begin Combat so that the trigger would be put on the stack. Essentially he was giving Thien the chance to use removal at the end of the Main Phase on the Weldfast before Crewing rather than saving removal for the bigger long term threat of Heart of Kiran to deny the trigger.

Unless there was another artifact creature in play under his control there was no trigger

 

[Santiako]

Segovia's straight up BR Artifact Aggro looks really sweet.

 

[ultron87]

No one ever goes "Combat? ...okay. Pass priority to declare attackers."

 

[Angry Grimace]

Still think Dynavolt Tower is not a real card.

Unless there was another artifact creature in play under his control there was no trigger

In either case you can't put the trigger on the stack targeting the Heart of Kiran unless its a creature when you get to the beginning of the Begin Combat phase.

No one ever goes "Combat? ...okay. Pass priority to declare attackers."

That's because you don't ever actually do anything in the Beginning of Combat phase as the active player. The reason you say "combat" is a shortcut to give your opponent an opportunity to do something in either the main phase or combat phase (which is relevant because beginning of combat often has triggers)

 

[Yeef]

Unless there was another artifact creature in play under his control there was no trigger

His board was a weldfast engineer, two Scrapheap Scoungers and a Heart of Kiran. Even though he couldn't make the pay he wanted (crew in response to trigger) he could have targeted a scounger instead, which would have made a difference and potentially won him that game.

In the end, he ended up winning the match, so it all worked out.

 

[Jhriad]

Unless there was another artifact creature in play under his control there was no trigger

There were two Scrapheap Scroungers and Heart of Kiran. So two artifact creatures and a vehicle. My read was that he was going to pump a scrounger so it could actually attack and trade with one of the potential blockers while getting in with Heart. He said "Move to Combat" to give Thien the chance to use removal BEFORE the trigger would go on the stack. If removal isn't used he then pumps Scrounger, crews Heart with the other Scrounger and swings in.

 

[charlequin]

Okay I thought I understood what happened here but are we then saying this shortcut ("Combat?") not only moves right to declare attackers but also presumes that you missed your own mandatory beginning-of-combat trigger?

 

[Jhriad]

Okay I thought I understood what happened here but are we then saying this shortcut ("Combat?") not only moves right to declare attackers but also presumes that you missed your own mandatory beginning-of-combat trigger?

That was my understanding of the Judge Ruling. I'd have to go back and rewatch it to be sure though since I wasn't devoting a ton of attention to the match because they were bouncing around waiting for judge ruling stuff.

 

[Lucario]

Okay I thought I understood what happened here but are we then saying this shortcut ("Combat?") not only moves right to declare attackers but also presumes that you missed your own mandatory beginning-of-combat trigger?

yes.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Okay I thought I understood what happened here but are we then saying this shortcut ("Combat?") not only moves right to declare attackers but also presumes that you missed your own mandatory beginning-of-combat trigger?

If you skip the +2/+0 trigger by not saying anything you just miss it, I guess. I've never really heard of this manner of constructing words, though.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Okay I thought I understood what happened here but are we then saying this shortcut ("Combat?") not only moves right to declare attackers but also presumes that you missed your own mandatory beginning-of-combat trigger?

That is correct given the current rules, yes.

 

[ultron87]

And that trigger can be missed like that because it requires the choice of a target. If it was something like "at the beginning of combat, all artifact creatures you control get +2/+0" it is assumed to have happened unless you say "take X damage" and that amount doesn't include the boost to your artifacts.