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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?

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Santiako

Member
White's the best splash color, but it's not leaps ahead. No one is building a deck and adding White solely for 1-4x Copies of sideboard cards*

As for Jeskai being a deck, it had one Flash in the pan over the past 2 years during the Nahiri Hype and really hasn't made any improvements since.

*The only deck that runs a white splash solely in the side is Elves, and that's because each White Hatebear has effectively 9 copies for each 1of(1 of, Chord, CoCo.)

Actually, it's definitely been done before. Maybe not in the current meta.

I was speaking of UWR being a deck actually before Nahiri. It's been awhile. Won the Pro Tour in 2014, I believe. It was fun to watch Shaun McLaren win that one.


Ryoichi Tamada got top 8 in Kobe by going back to basics with his UWR Control a couple of weeks ago and the deck has been posting tons of 5-0s since. Could have legs!

Saw some tech on using Ulvenwald Hydra to grab Shrine of the Forsaken Gods to ramp into Ulamogs from hand. Nice. I'll run that.

Brad Nelson was running that last week when he won GP Omaha undefeated. He said it was the best way to fight the decks that get rid of your Marvels (so you can do your thing without relying on Marvel g2/3).
 

Ashodin

Member
Brad Nelson was running that last week when he won GP Omaha undefeated. He said it was the best way to fight the decks that get rid of your Marvels (so you can do your thing without relying on Marvel g2/3).

I'm expecting heavy resistance this week so I'll run it main.
 
Ryoichi Tamada got top 8 in Kobe by going back to basics with his UWR Control a couple of weeks ago and the deck has been posting tons of 5-0s since. Could have legs!
I mean, not to discount him/his victory, but Players playing Subpar Modern Decks doesn't make the decks any less bad. See: That guy at GP Vancouver that top 8d with 8Rack/Guy at Dallas who won with Skred. Both won/top8'd GPs, Excitement happened, but the decks were mostly dead come a month out. There's also the fact that Wizards can be very, very selective in what 5-0s they post, so I'm not sure using 5-0s is the best indicator for how good the deck is.

I do think Spell Queller is a spicy meta pick, especially since it's biggest predator(Bolt) is no longer King of Modern.
 

Zocano

Member
Not sure why Bolas would want another Planeswalker at all tbh.
Unless it's to harvest their spark or something.

Oh. That's a fun idea to me: Bolas' end game is just to literally compose scenarios (i.e. planes) that will cause someone to spark out and he swoops in to eat it to gather spark energy so he can get back to being a pre-mending walker.
 

Tunoku

Member
I'm expecting heavy resistance this week so I'll run it main.

I still really enjoy Servant and Chandra and I only lost once to the mirror at the GP (out of 9 matches), and that was against Tiu's Marvel deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/664759#paper

I just swapped the maindeck Coup with Baral's Expertise since I'm not expecting as many Marvel decks at FNM. The plan is to board in most of your sideboard and Abandon the Ulamog/Marvel plan completely. You basically turn into Temur Energy and it seems like a ton of fun. I'm sure I'm gonna get some people with it today when they miss with their Disposes.
 

traveler

Not Wario
Tamada's list was the last one I tested in competitive leagues on mtgo for Vegas. I was pretty much locked on Grixis deaths shadow, but his list impressed me so much right off the bat, I'm going to do a few more runs with it today to see if I should shift over to it. It is much more powerful than it looks; big mana decks have been the only sore spot thus far, although I've yet to test against dredge or burn. I am a bit concerned how the snappies and logic knots will fare against the inevitable plethora of gy hate in Vegas and, on the flip side, how the deck can handle decks like dredge that utilize their gy so heavily, but I think some sideboard tweaks might enough to make me feel comfortable there.
 
Could you quickly help me evaluating how broken this theoretical variant on Force Spike would in different formats? I basically wanted a way to counter a T1 hand disruption on the draw.

Spike in the Force - 1U

Instant
If you control no lands you may cast ~ without paying its mana cost.
Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}.


In my opinion:
Limited: Unplayable
Standard: Unplayable
Modern: Probably not worth it
Legacy: ?
Vintage: ???
 
I never know how formating comes out on PCs. There's a break between those on my phone.


Also I'm starting to get annoyed being asked for trades in my LGS. Do I have to wear a shirt with "No trades" to be left alone?
I'm just sitting here charging my phone and browsing while waiting for FNM to start.
 
I never know how formating comes out on PCs. There's a break between those on my phone.


Also I'm starting to get annoyed being asked for trades in my LGS. Do I have to wear a shirt with "No trades" to be left alone?
I'm just sitting here charging my phone and browsing while waiting for FNM to start.

I'm willing to bet even that wouldn't work.
 

ironmang

Member
White's the best splash color, but it's not leaps ahead. No one is building a deck and adding White solely for 1-4x Copies of sideboard cards*

As for Jeskai being a deck, it had one Flash in the pan over the past 2 years during the Nahiri Hype and really hasn't made any improvements since.

*The only deck that runs a white splash solely in the side is Elves, and that's because each White Hatebear has effectively 9 copies for each 1of(1 of, Chord, CoCo.)

A lot of shadow decks run white splash for souls, kataki, and ranger of eos.
 

kirblar

Member
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcement-week-coming-2017-06-08

Announcements each day next week. The bulk of the new product announcements will be on Wednesday. Digital Next will likely be on Tuesday.
Look at Monday.

In b4 Kirblar was right.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/changes-2017-06-09
Kind of the elephant in the room for a lot of the last year was that we made a ton of changes in how we made sets, and not all of them worked out as well as we would've liked. I think the move away from three-set blocks was good as a whole but hit some rough spots with the loss of core sets, dealing with more themes per year, and faster Standard rotation.

I think we went into it with the best of intentions and with reasonable ideas on how to tackle things, but between the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns, there were certainly places where we stumbled a bit. I believe we have learned a lot from the whole experience, and while the last year did not always go as smoothly as we might have liked, I think that the end result is that sets and Standard in particular are going to get much stronger. The biggest long-term risk to us is that we stagnate and never try anything new. Even if not all our attempts at improvement work out, the ones that do pay dividends in the future. I mean, the net result of us making those changes was the creation of some additional process changes that you will learn of soon enough, as well as our Play Design team.
No seriously, somethings changing. (3+1, 2+2 as new rotation setup?)
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Moving the B&R day off of their announcement day is curious for sure but it also might not mean anything.

They might just be looking to avoid heat for a "no changes" announcement.
 

Xis

Member
Look at Monday.

In b4 Kirblar was right.


No seriously, somethings changing. (3+1, 2+2 as new rotation setup?)

I've been thinking they will still do 2+2 each year, but the two blocks will be more closely related in theme and mechanics. Like if they had done SOI / Amonkhet back-to-back. Or perhaps like if they had done small expansions to Rise of the Eldrazi or Dragons of Tarkir.

So each year would be a new setting with a new big set, small set; then another big set that shows a major shift but still (basically) the same setting, with another small set following.
 

Justin

Member
I am going to make a wild guess that they are going to change rotation. This is completely based on the fact that Rosewater told someone on his blog last week that Innistrad wasn't rotating out till next year and didn't correct his post till two days later. Its also possible he just forgot...
 

kirblar

Member
I am going to make a wild guess that they are going to change rotation. This is completely based on the fact that Rosewater told someone on his blog last week that Innistrad wasn't rotating out till next year and didn't correct his post till two days later. Its also possible he just forgot...
I'd love Standard being 7-8 blocks with a 2x rotation, but I doubt it happens.
 

hermit7

Member
Finishing up a new edh deck, and was looking for some people's thoughts on it.

General is shu yun the silent tempest in a control/ tempo shell with card draw and plenty of removal. Main wincons are through token generation on young pyro, talrand, or monastery mentor and then beat down.

I guess the deck is more politic based where I can hold up counters and prevent people from attacking me if I don't counter their stuff.

Anything specifically that I may have missed?

Decklist is http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/shu-yun-controlling-tokens/
 

Daedardus

Member
I am going to make a wild guess that they are going to change rotation. This is completely based on the fact that Rosewater told someone on his blog last week that Innistrad wasn't rotating out till next year and didn't correct his post till two days later. Its also possible he just forgot...

Changing rotation again? Most of their problems were created with sets being longer in standard than expected, I doubt they'll lengthen the rotation cycle yet once more.
 

kirblar

Member
Changing rotation again? Most of their problems were created with sets being longer in standard than expected, I doubt they'll lengthen the rotation cycle yet once more.
That wasn't the problem. BFZ/SoI/Kaladesh problem cards were issues regardless of how long they were in Standard. They changed their entire philosophy w/ face cards and it blew up on them.
 
No seriously, somethings changing. (3+1, 2+2 as new rotation setup?)

Yeah, it's definitely changing, I'm just pretty confident it's not reverting. Just to get myself on the record here before we all find out:

  • I'm confident they won't go back to three sets in a typical block, because they had 20 years to figure out how to do this right and never ever did.
  • I'm confident they won't go back to just one block/world per year, because literally their single biggest problem right now is people checking out when something unpopular happens and one block a year made this a much more serious issue. (Like if we acknowledge Hearthstone is their biggest competitor, nothing could be worse for that matchup than this.)
  • They're clearly adding something like a core set back into the mix, but it won't just be identical to a core set in the M10 world because, again, that was an unpopular product that people generally didn't like to buy.
  • It will almost certainly involve mixing up the schedule, because they're going to a non-block-delineated scheme of codenames which lets them have different structures per year without giving those away publicly.

Some possible options:

  • Every year is a two-set block, a standalone, and a core set.
  • Alternating years of 2-2 and 2-1-core.
  • Alternating years of 2-2 and 2-core, with something else in the last slot.
  • ????
 

kirblar

Member
They're burning through worlds, themes and mechanics too quickly right now. They need something to put on the brakes.

2 worlds/year is actually kinda overwhelming for players.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
They did do it right twice, back to back in fact. I can't speak for pre onslaught blocks though.
 
They're burning through worlds, themes and mechanics too quickly right now. They need something to put on the brakes.

2 worlds/year is actually kinda overwhelming for players.
I still don't understand your logic behind this.

It will be interesting to see what they change. They are certainly not reverting, but I could see something like a new core set being attached to each large set as a way to provide a consistent on ramp to new players.

Anyway, since there's a big preview event next Friday, any objections to the new thread coming Thursday night?
 

bigkrev

Member
Moving the Banlist announcement to its own day tells me something major is going on.

Ideas to sell core sets: make them the exclusive home of full arts, make it the exclusive home of EDH Masterpieces (i.e., cards like Doubling season), or make the core set packs 2.99 so that players have more of a reason to buy- "I can draft with my friends for under $10, I can get 4 packs of this for the same as 3 of Atlazan, etc".
 
Moving the B&R day off of their announcement day is curious for sure but it also might not mean anything.

They specifically said they want to give people a whole day to digest it, that's pretty much confirmation that it's not nothing.

I've been thinking they will still do 2+2 each year, but the two blocks will be more closely related in theme and mechanics. Like if they had done SOI / Amonkhet back-to-back. Or perhaps like if they had done small expansions to Rise of the Eldrazi or Dragons of Tarkir.

This doesn't actually solve any particular problems though? Like that doesn't help with the constructed issues or improve the marketing situation.

They're burning through worlds, themes and mechanics too quickly right now.

You really just kind of invented this from whole cloth. They were using mechanics too quickly because they were doing 11 mechanics in two sets. You can do a whole block with 3-4 easily. It makes much more sense to just make blocks simpler than go back to trying to stretch themes out to three sets, which we know basically never works.

Similarly, the story people explicitly wanted them to go to this mode, because it was almost impossible for them to get good engagement with the story content having to stretch each block story out to a whole year. As it is they already can't get through a year of stories on the website without long breaks.

2 worlds/year is actually kinda overwhelming for players.

Nah. Again, Hearthstone is my go-to example here. Imagine telling people that instead of three distinct releases every year, they were now going to get three sets of the same theme and same base mechanics -- there'd be riots in the streets. This is the marketing and novelty cadence WotC has to compete with. If they go back to one block a year then if the fall set is a little bit underwhelming they lose a ton of people for at least a whole calendar year.
 

kirblar

Member
I didn't invent it. The pace feels overwhelming to me right now., mechanics are getting 1 set to shine then being discarded (see: Investigate, that Convoke for Artifacts mechanic, etc.) and it just generally feels like the brakes need to be put on in some form.

The story is the part that benefitted, but at the expense of the game itself. And that's not a good tradeoff!
 
I forgot to mention, the newest Latest Developments mentions that Sam Stoddard will stop writing it. Instead, the new Play Design team will take over, with Melissa DeTora as the main writer.

"more themes per year" was specifically called out as a "rough spot" in the linked article.
So we're just ignoring what he wrote right after?

I didn't invent it. The pace feels overwhelming to me right now., mechanics are getting 1 set to shine then being discarded (see: Investigate, that Convoke for Artifacts mechanic, etc.) and it just generally feels like the brakes need to be put on in some form.

The story is the part that benefitted, but at the expense of the game itself. And that's not a good tradeoff!
They did that with three sets too! See Theros, Tarkir, etc.

Besides, everyone, look back at the original Metamorphosis article. How do you solve the problems brought up there with the three-set block model?
 
They're burning through worlds, themes and mechanics too quickly right now. They need something to put on the brakes.

2 worlds/year is actually kinda overwhelming for players.

Worlds, ya. Mechanics? No. I would really contend the opposite, that they're generating more mechanics and cards that never see the light of day, which causes them to have more material for future returns to that mechanic. The lower card count in each block guarantees that they're having to set aside ideas and stuff for the next time they use the mechanic at a much higher rate than previously. Maro has already been saying that they don't get to use a huge amount of the stuff they do. All the 2 block change initially did was try to cram 3 sets worth of mechanics into 2, which they sited as an issue with BFZ (which we know started as a 3 set block) and I felt like was fixed by the time Kaladesh rolled around. Which kind of emphasizes that it's both not an issue with 2 set blocks or an issue in general.

They're really going through mechanics way slower than they were before. The only real way they would go through them faster is by adding more sets to the year, which they haven't.

I didn't invent it. The pace feels overwhelming to me right now., mechanics are getting 1 set to shine then being discarded (see: Investigate, that Convoke for Artifacts mechanic, etc.) and it just generally feels like the brakes need to be put on in some form.

One off mechanics are nothing new for sets. They need to exist to fill out sets. These don't go away if the block is 2 or 3 sets.
 

Ashodin

Member
I'll also go on the record that I loved three set blocks. The natural story progression felt right.

As regards to the B&R announcement on Tuesday, the language there suggests marvel is eating a ban.
 

Xis

Member
What's wrong with them going back to to 3 sets per block?

Three set blocks have almost never worked out. One set almost always turns out bad. Set 1 - introduce new ideas; set 2 - iterate on them; Set 3 - ???

I personally feel like we are jumping between blocks too fast now, but going back to three set blocks isn't a great answer either.
 

Hero

Member
I didn't invent it. The pace feels overwhelming to me right now., mechanics are getting 1 set to shine then being discarded (see: Investigate, that Convoke for Artifacts mechanic, etc.) and it just generally feels like the brakes need to be put on in some form.

The story is the part that benefitted, but at the expense of the game itself. And that's not a good tradeoff!

I'm with you on this. There were a couple of great mechanics that just did not get the time/cards to shine. Also feels like we barely get to do much in these worlds.

I think it's going to alternate as follows:

Year 1: Two blocks of two sets each
Year 2: One block of three sets plus a Core set (or whatever standalone thing they call it)
 

Daedardus

Member
That wasn't the problem. BFZ/SoI/Kaladesh problem cards were issues regardless of how long they were in Standard. They changed their entire philosophy w/ face cards and it blew up on them.

I shouldn't have said most of the problems in the past, I actually meant that going forward the rotation change did mess up their schedule, as they had to last minute do changes to accomodate the longer rotation. It's also what caused all those problem cards to surface, because they hardly had oversight of the whole set.

how are they burning through worlds? ever since the changes we've had 2 returns and 2 new planes.

And forget 3 sets per block. That's always been a crap structure.

We have three in a row now though.
 
We have three in a row now though.
We are probably getting two returns in a row in 2018. The first is certainly Dominaria, and the second is possibly Ravnica, though it would be neat if they actually focused on the continent from Mirage, which is now somehow its own plane due to Teferi phasing shenanigans.
 
I mean, the biggest issue with the Two Block sets is that the most Popular Plane(Ravnica) needs either 2 Large or 1 Large and 2 Small to fit what they want. Any design changes they're probably dealing with come from Probably a Nexus of Ravnica and Core Sets, honestly.

I mean, I could see this being a thing:

Year 1: AL, AS, BL, BS
Year 2: CL, CS, CL, O2

You make every second year be the event stories, where it's a return to a plane to deal with an issue (and the whole Gatewatch tags along). So like, under this idea (assuming we start post Dominaria), you'd have something like:

Rebels of Vryn, War for the Rings, Darkness Beneath Theros, Time of Ascension

Heart of Phyrexia, War for Mirrodin, The Awoken Horror, Magic Origins 2.


As for the banlist update, the fact that it's on its own day gives me the idea that it's going to be something either mediocre (no changes) or something borderline nuclear(Marvel banned, SSG Banned, Chrome Mox Unbanned, Past in Flames banned, Preordain unbanned,Eldrazi Temple Banned,etc).
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They specifically said they want to give people a whole day to digest it, that's pretty much confirmation that it's not nothing.



This doesn't actually solve any particular problems though? Like that doesn't help with the constructed issues or improve the marketing situation.



You really just kind of invented this from whole cloth. They were using mechanics too quickly because they were doing 11 mechanics in two sets. You can do a whole block with 3-4 easily. It makes much more sense to just make blocks simpler than go back to trying to stretch themes out to three sets, which we know basically never works.

Similarly, the story people explicitly wanted them to go to this mode, because it was almost impossible for them to get good engagement with the story content having to stretch each block story out to a whole year. As it is they already can't get through a year of stories on the website without long breaks.



Nah. Again, Hearthstone is my go-to example here. Imagine telling people that instead of three distinct releases every year, they were now going to get three sets of the same theme and same base mechanics -- there'd be riots in the streets. This is the marketing and novelty cadence WotC has to compete with. If they go back to one block a year then if the fall set is a little bit underwhelming they lose a ton of people for at least a whole calendar year.

I mean, I don't buy that they're through mechanics because most mechanics are generally variants of existing mechanics (Embalm is flashback for creatures; JOU's Strive and EMN's Escalate are just Kicker) It's sort of like guitar riffs - Tony Iommi wrote every riff there was to write, and everything that came after was just a derivative of it in some way, shape or form.

I'm with you on this. There were a couple of great mechanics that just did not get the time/cards to shine. Also feels like we barely get to do much in these worlds.

I think it's going to alternate as follows:

Year 1: Two blocks of two sets each
Year 2: One block of three sets plus a Core set (or whatever standalone thing they call it)

The way they label sets makes it sort of nebulous to newer players what's rotating out and when - I've seen it happen a ton of times at my store. I almost feel like cards should be labeled "Season X" or something on the card in the bottom of the frame so you can just say "all cards with Season X are rotating" instead of "Shadows Over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon, Battle for Zendikar and Oath of the Gatewatch are rotating."

I realize its super simple as-is, but people get confused all of the time. Half the time I think its because they don't actually know what sets their cards are in.
 
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