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[Ashodin]

TOP OF THE PAGE

What you need to know:

• ICONIC MASTERS announced today! It's a set with iconic tribal themes in it, Angels, Dragons, and more, with older beloved spells from Magic's history!
• HASCON announced! Hasbro's First Ever Convention, Where Magic will be a featured product and Iconic Masters will be drafted with NO official spoilers beforehand!
• HASCON takes place in Providence, Rhode Island on September 8th - 10th.
• AMONKHET PRERELEASE THIS WEEKEND! Go to your LGS and support them while getting shiny new cards and potential INVOCATIONS!

Posted yet?

Bolas is the set symbol (as if it was anything else).

Are we always going to get the villains as the second set now?

 

[Neoweee]

This is a good start for playable pushed card, but again, doesn't really feel like a hydra. But if they did more cards of this power level with hydras, I'd be willing to bet the creature type would resonate.

I think "Comes back after it dies, at a more efficient cost" is Hydra-ish. It's a different take on regenerating heads.

 

[Santiako]

Bolas is the set symbol (as if it was anything else).

Are we always going to get the villains as the second set now?

Yes, flowery pussy was my favourite villain in a while

 

[Ashodin]

Yes, flowery pussy was my favourite villain in a while

well aether revolt pussied out on making an actual villain worth noting since Tezzeret just ran away like a bitch

 

[GregLombardi]

TOP OF THE PAGE

What you need to know:

• ICONIC MASTERS announced today! It's a set with iconic tribal themes in it, Angels, Dragons, and more, with older beloved spells from Magic's history!
• HASCON announced! Hasbro's First Ever Convention, Where Magic will be a featured product and Iconic Masters will be drafted with NO official spoilers beforehand!
• HASCON takes place in Providence, Rhode Island on September 8th - 10th.
• AMONKHET PRERELEASE THIS WEEKEND! Go to your LGS and support them while getting shiny new cards and potential INVOCATIONS!

Posted yet?

Bolas is the set symbol (as if it was anything else).

Are we always going to get the villains as the second set now?

This is literally the only good thing that ever happens in Rhode Island.

Otherwise, we create things for the world like Sean Spicer.

Thanks Hasbro.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Those are all fine cards with cool abilities but I don't know that I'd call any of them "pushed" (though Kalonian surprised me with how little play it saw and sees).



This is a good start for playable pushed card, but again, doesn't really feel like a hydra. But if they did more cards of this power level with hydras, I'd be willing to bet the creature type would resonate.

You're right that it doesn't, but I would argue that as an iconic creature type it doesn't really "work" with the "X heads" design philosophy because that type of creature tends to be directly on rate (or below it). The most basic "green hydra" design is probably like

Generic Hydra
XG
0/0
Trample
Generic Hydra enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters

That isn't either interesting or particularly good, because by default its below curve and green's keyword abilities are all worse than flying.

Angels and Demons are almost always large fliers with a flashy ability, so its somewhat obvious why they're popular. Sphinxes have the same problem Hydras do, but at least they fly, and Dragons are just inherently a popular creature type.

 

[Santiako]

well aether revolt pussied out on making an actual villain worth noting since Tezzeret just ran away like a bitch

Kinda fits lol

 

[Angry Grimace]

I just actively disliked the storyline in Kaladesh; it felt like it hit all the marks of stuff you were dreading would happen if they put the Gatewatch in every single set; e.g. the Gatewatch in full is there for no reason; the worldbuilding and planar conflict took a backseat to the Gatewatch's existence; and, nothing actually happened, and there were few real reasons for the Gatewatch to be there. I also personally disliked the type of world they made Kaladesh - it's kind of a generic artifact world, but not in the cool Mirrodin way.

So Amonkhet feels far more sinister and serious than Kaladesh did.

 

[Ashodin]

That's the consequence of bottom up mechanic design - the story has rarely any time to bake.

 

[Imperfected]

well aether revolt pussied out on making an actual villain worth noting since Tezzeret just ran away like a bitch

Listen, he's Tezzeret "the Schemer" not Tezzeret "the Guy Who Gets Things Done".

If you aren't in the market for schemes or maybe music you should find someone else.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I played a Tezzeret the Schemer deck at FNM for the entirety of AER standard.

I think I lost like 4 matches all season. Of course, I play at a large store that generally speaking has a very limited number of regulars who would dare show up to FNM with something other than a tryhard brew. I've run into lots and lots of Detective Jaces in my time.

 

[Ashodin]

Listen, he's Tezzeret "the Schemer" not Tezzeret "the Guy Who Gets Things Done".

If you aren't in the market for schemes or maybe music you should find someone else.

You mean Tezzeret the

 

[Infinite Stars]

If they don't Nuke the majority of the reserve list with Iconic Masters then I don't know why they're bothering to make the set. You can't justify $10 packs and have fucking Shivan Dragon at rare(which it will be if there's no reserve list)

No one likes Hydras because Hydras aren't cool.

I like Hydras, but I'm alone in this camp.

I do think Hydra's need some sort of rehaul like "At the beginning of each end step, if ~ has taken damage this turn but hasn't died, put X +1/+1 Counters on it where X is the damage it took". Either that or something like that one Ooze that splits into smaller Oozes.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is literally the only good thing that ever happens in Rhode Island.

Otherwise, we create things for the world like Sean Spicer.

Thanks Hasbro.

I literally forgot that Delaware was a state the other day

Like I was reviewing some customer data and I saw DE and went "DE...DE...D-Delaware?"

 

[Imperfected]

I like hydras okay, but I think people have pointed out some obvious issues with them:

There aren't many "named" hydras. There are tons of legendary dragons, angels, and even a fair number of sphinxes. There are... actually not that many legendary demons, that I can recall, which is sort of weird, but whatever. There are just a couple of legendary hydras; as tribes go, they're probably smaller than Oozes or Elementals, even.

The last two green iconic planeswalkers have had creature types associated to them (Beasts and Elementals), which makes both of those types feel more green-associated.

There's not a ton of mechanical variety in how hydras work and what they do.

Most of them just aren't great outside of Limited.

So, if you're going to print a hydra tribal set, I don't even know how you go about that. Are there going to be an absolute ton of tribal support cards? Are they just going to give them generic green ramp and creature tutoring, throw in a "captain" hydra (pffft) and call it a day?

 

[charlequin]

The idea of a stealth pre-release for this set is honestly pretty awesome. I'm old enough to actually remember when it worked that way and we were scouring the internet for the results of the Ice Age prere, lol. Doing it with a (hopefully cool) reprint set is a good way to do that without causing the kind of problems you would with a standard-legal set.

I don't know how they justify $10 packs of anything if they're printing 2 sets like that a year.

I don't think they are. Pretty sure this is just the front half of an overall revamp of the schedule. In the old world it was Masters in spring, rando supplemental in Summer, and Commander in fall; now it'll be random supplemental in the spring, commander in the summer, and Masters in the fall, which I think overall makes more sense.

Going through the set reviews

guys

I think Amonkhet might be really good

It's funny to me every time how little everyone's kneejerk reactions to stuff right upfront has to do with where things ultimately land.

Dinosaurs should have been the green iconic long ago.

It's really really hard to justify Dinosaurs as anything but french vanilla fatties, and they're an even tougher creative fit in most sets than Hydras.

They won't abolish the reserved list. It's frankly not worth the effort or risk to do so. There's not that much gain, and potential huge amounts of aggro behind it.

I don't see it at all.

Upsides: satisfaction for the significant majority of players who want this to happen, huge new store of reprint equity to exploit for years, dramatically easier design process for reprint sets, opportunity to create truly desirable ultra-premium products using reserved cards, a generally increased level of respect demonstrated for the game's fans and its long, distinguished history.

Downsides: pisses off important groups like "collectors who care a lot about monetary value of cards they don't intend to sell" and "B-list card dealers who don't understand the way CFB/SCG do that the reserve list isn't good for them," can't get approved by the brilliant lawyers at HASBRO LEGAL who also believe you can't legally allow game designers to see fan designs on the internet and that adding a hashtag to a tweet absolves them of some level of liability.

Where's the major downside again?

 

[red13th]

If they don't Nuke the majority of the reserve list with Iconic Masters then I don't know why they're bothering to make the set. You can't justify $10 packs and have fucking Shivan Dragon at rare(which it will be if there's no reserve list)

What the fuck? Reprinting iconic spells and creatures IS in itself a huge and important reason.

 

[Santiako]

What the fuck? Reprinting iconic spells and creatures IS in itself a huge and important reason.

Not at 10 bucks a pack. You can't justify getting a Shivan Dragon/Serra Angel at that price.

 

[aidan]

Not at 10 bucks a pack. You can't justify getting a Shivan Dragon/Serra Angel at that price.

Yeah. They literally give those cards away to new players.

 

[Ashodin]

There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.

 

[Santiako]

I can see them keeping moxen/lotus/power as a reserve list, but there is zero reason to not get rid of the list for the lands, things like Academy Rector, Survival of the Fittest, Wheel of Fortune, Tabernacle, Masticore, Rofellos, Powder Keg, etc

 

[aidan]

There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.

Loud, but from a very, very small portion of the game's paying audience. As a group, casual drafters and FNM players put significantly more money into the game than collectors.

 

[Ashodin]

Loud, but from a very, very small portion of the game's paying audience. As a group, casual drafters and FNM players put significantly more money into the game than collectors.

True, but those people who will be loud will be very angry and try to spread their message as wide as possible to make it seem like it's the entire community.

 

[Imperfected]

I mean, there's probably going to be loud complaining either way, so go with the loud complaining that's best for the health of the game and the company.

 

[charlequin]

There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.

From who?

It's very well established that while it's not all, a serious majority of players prefer eliminating the list.

All of the major dealers prefer a world without the reserved list because reserved cards are actually a bad investment due to high pricepoint and low liquidity.

I don't see any evidence that there's a sizeable group who are seriously negatively impacted by this decision and would complain in a way that would register above the universal complaining that follows every WotC decision.

True, but those people who will be loud will be very angry and try to spread their message as wide as possible to make it seem like it's the entire community.

This literally happens like twice a month for WotC so the incentive to care about this happening at all is deeply reduced unless it affects some other metric they actually care about, which in this case it would not.

 

[Wichu]

I like hydras okay, but I think people have pointed out some obvious issues with them:

There aren't many "named" hydras. There are tons of legendary dragons, angels, and even a fair number of sphinxes. There are... actually not that many legendary demons, that I can recall, which is sort of weird, but whatever. There are just a couple of legendary hydras; as tribes go, they're probably smaller than Oozes or Elementals, even.?

There's exactly one mono-green legendary Hydra (Polukranos), and only two multicolour ones. More legendary Hydras please

Legendary counts:
Angel: 25 (10 mono-W)
Sphinx: 6 (1 mono-U)
Demon: 19 (12 mono-B) - this includes Withengar and Ormendahl, which are noncreatures on the front face
Dragon: 40 (3 mono-R) - the vast majority of legendary dragons are multicoloured
Hydra: 3 (1 mono-G)

Demons are actually doing pretty well in terms of legendary count, though admittedly they got some help from having Demons be a supported tribe in Kamigawa.

There exist also one demon planeswalker (Ob Nixilis) and two dragon planeswalkers (Bolas and Ugin). Crucius is a sphinx walker, but hasn't appeared on a card yet.

 

[Ashodin]

From who?

It's very well established that while it's not all, a serious majority of players prefer eliminating the list.

All of the major dealers prefer a world without the reserved list because reserved cards are actually a bad investment due to high pricepoint and low liquidity.

I don't see any evidence that there's a sizeable group who are seriously negatively impacted by this decision and would complain in a way that would register above the universal complaining that follows every WotC decision.

Neither do I, nonetheless it's likely there, waiting to be unleashed.

This literally happens like twice a month for WotC so the incentive to care about this happening at all is deeply reduced unless it affects some other metric they actually care about, which in this case it would not.

Like I said, there is obvious incentive not to do it because of their perceived mantra of "We were right, always" about the Reserved List. The arrogance over it over the years has produced this kind of "if we take it away, we'll look like asses who should've never done it in the first place".

The problem is they're looking more and more like asses if they don't. So hopefully that tipping point is reached someday.

The chant grows louder and louder really.

 

[Imperfected]

There's exactly one mono-green legendary Hydra (Polukranos), and only two multicolour ones. More legendary Hydras please

Legendary counts:
Angel: 25 (10 mono-W)
Sphinx: 6 (1 mono-U)
Demon: 19 (12 mono-B) - this includes Withengar and Ormendahl, which are noncreatures on the front face
Dragon: 40 (3 mono-R) - the vast majority of legendary dragons are multicoloured
Hydra: 3 (1 mono-G)

Demons are actually doing pretty well in terms of legendary count, though admittedly they got some help from having Demons be a supported tribe in Kamigawa.

Oh right, I forgot the Kamigawa demons. I thought they were just (non-demon) Spirits for some reason.

 

[red13th]

Not at 10 bucks a pack. You can't justify getting a Shivan Dragon/Serra Angel at that price.

Don't buy packs then? It's not like there aren't bulk rares in Masters sets. I really don't see the problem.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

There will be extremely LOUD vocal backlash against the Reserved List dying.

If by 'loud' you mean 'lawsuits filed by unknown parties' then ya, probably. Because major vendors are all on record as saying they want it gone, and the large majority of players want it gone. If Wizards made a move, they would either have placated the litigious parties beforehand, or they are prepared to bite that bullet.

Like, reserve list getting done away with would be met with parties in the streets.

 

[Wichu]

Oh right, I forgot the Kamigawa demons. I thought they were just (non-demon) Spirits for some reason.

Even counting only story-relevant characters, demons still have Malfegor (he appeared in the comic), Griselbrand, Kothoped, Rakdos, Ob Nixilis, and soon Razaketh as cards.

Sphinxes have Alhammarret, Isperia, and Sharuum (did Medomai appear in the story?)

Angels have Avacyn, Gisela, Bruna, Sigarda, Aurelia, Akroma, Razia, Selenia, Radiant.

Dragons have the original Elder Dragons, the Tarkir Dragonlords, the Primordials, Niv-Mizzet, Rorix, Karrthus, Malfegor (again), and the Kamigawa dragon spirits (notable in that they sided with the humans in the Kami War).

Hydras have Polukranos, Ulasht, and Progenitus. I'm not sure whether Ulasht counts as story-relevant, but Polukranos and Progenitus appeared in their planes' stories.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

If they bust the reserve list, it won't be a surprise. We'll know about it at least a year before the cards hit the streets.

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

The question is really does the amount of money they'll make on reprinting old cards outweigh the loss of value of the cards by existing collectors that are willing to sue over it.

And yeah, it probably does.

 

[Ashodin]

I just want more dudes with greatswords

Like my homie Rafiq of the Many

 

[Imperfected]

Hydras have Polukranos, Ulasht, and Progenitus. I'm not sure whether Ulasht counts as story-relevant, but Polukranos and Progenitus appeared in their planes' stories.

It's weird that Ulasht is even a hydra.

Hydras would be tied with Kraken Tribal in terms of legendaries if someone hadn't dropped the ball on Lorthos.

 

[Glix]

MagicGAF, I have a rules question.

Someone attacked me with a myr battleshpere last night, and tapped their four tokens for the extra power/direct damage.

With the effect on the stack I used removal on the battleshpere. Because the card says tap x blah blah to have BATTLESPHERE deal X dmg, I assumed that when the ability resolved the damage wouldn't happen because the battlesphere is no longer in play.

I was very wrong. Has it always been like this or was there a rules change at some point? I was shocked when the damage went through.

edit - re: reserve list - I'm all for getting rid of it but if I owned a set of power and 4x of each dual I would be PISSED.

 

[Ashodin]

MagicGAF, I have a rules question.

Someone attacked me with a myr battleshpere last night, and tapped their four tokens for the extra power/direct damage.

With the effect on the stack I used removal on the battleshpere. Because the card says tap x blah blah to have BATTLESPHERE deal X dmg, I assumed that when the ability resolved the damage wouldn't happen because the battlesphere is no longer in play.

I was very wrong. Has it always been like this or was there a rules change at some point? I was shocked when the damage went through.

edit - re: reserve list - I'm all for getting rid of it but if I owned a set of power and 4x of each dual I would be PISSED.

The ability of the Battlesphere is placed on the stack, meaning regardless of what happens to it after that, the ability goes off.

See this Rule:

Rule 112 covers this adequately. Rule 112.3a tells us that Activating an ability puts it on the stack, until it resolves, is countered (Stifle), or it otherwise leaves the stack (Time Stop). Rule 112.7a tells us that the activated ability exists independent of the source, and does not quality this separation with objects moving to a hidden zone.

 

[charlequin]

Neither do I, nonetheless it's likely there, waiting to be unleashed.

So your theory here is that... what, a secret imaginary crowd of people whose objections can't be identified and aren't visible at all now, but which will inevitably manifest in volume afterwards because... why, exactly?

Like I said, there is obvious incentive not to do it because of their perceived mantra of "We were right, always" about the Reserved List.

This doesn't exist. Every single person in a leadership position in R&D has said the Reserved List was a mistake and they want to eliminate it.

The question is really does the amount of money they'll make on reprinting old cards outweigh the loss of value of the cards by existing collectors that are willing to sue over it.

Trivially.

 

[Ashodin]

This doesn't exist. Every single person in a leadership position in R&D has said the Reserved List was a mistake and they want to eliminate it.

So basically your theory here is that the only thing stopping them from removing the Reserved List is how much money they want to make and when.

OK.

 

[Metroidvania]

TBH if the reserve list does get broken down, I'd kind of expect the reserve list to get 'tiered', and have the Power 9 + a few others stay out, if only due to their extremely crazy cost factor.

But for stuff like old-dual lands, where they're pretty much a staple/necessity of legacy/vintage decks, and supply is kind of running low at this point, I could see them breaking that type of stuff apart.

But I have no idea where stuff in between those 'levels' of power would go in any sort of list.

The question is really does the amount of money they'll make on reprinting old cards outweigh the loss of value of the cards by existing collectors that are willing to sue over it.

And yeah, it probably does.

Legally, is there actually even recourse for this, though?

Yeah, they've 'said' it a lot over the years, but even if it's in print, unless there's some formal contract with some player out there, as a business wouldn't they be free to 'change their minds', so to speak, especially if they gave advance notice?

 

[Glix]

The ability of the Battlesphere is placed on the stack, meaning regardless of what happens to it after that, the ability goes off.

See this Rule:

Ahh, thank you.

 

[MoxManiac]

I think abolishing the Reserved List will completely crash the secondary market of the game and injure MTG as a whole.

BTW, I'm one of the people that wants the RL gone, but reality is reality.

 

[ultron87]

I wonder, how much would hypothetical newly printed Power actually be worth? You can't use them in any format except Vintage, which doesn't really have a booming event scene.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the price of Power actually a function of people buying them to play Vintage at sanctioned tournaments, or is it just due to their collectibility and rarity?

 

[Imperfected]

The secondary market has remained fine for cards that were never on the Reserved List. You can still pay way too much for a Lilian of the Veil, even without anyone threatening to sue over it being reprinted.

 

[Glix]

I mean...there were tons of cards that people felt were "too powerful for standard" so they would never be reprinted. PPL invested lots of money in cards like thoughtseize and clique and 'goyf and stuff.

And then wizards reprinted and lots of other stuff, by making non standard legal sets, which is something many people said they thought wizards would NEVER do.

And the game is still okay. And the games economy is still okay.

People thought that removing the ability to redeem was going to crash the MODO economy. And well... it did mess things up for a while, but now everything is okay.

There might be a backlash if they do it. And they may lose some players. But I think the game will not only be fine, but will be even healthier, if they do, do it.

They should really troll motherfuckers hard and release Vintage Masters IRL and make Lotus a common.

ULTRON - it depends how many ppl pick up Vintage. Vintage players LOVE vintage and are convinced the player pool would be much higher, if the access to the cards was there.

 

[Imperfected]

They should really troll motherfuckers hard and release Vintage Masters IRL and make Lotus a common.

Put the Moxen in the token/land slot.

 

[Santiako]

Iconic Masters Team:

Initial Design

Erik Lauer (lead)
Ken Troop
Yoni Skolnik

Final Design

Bryan Hawley (lead)
Adam Prosak
Alan Canode
Pete Ingram

Worldbuilding

Kelly Digges
Colin Kawakami
Sam Burley
Dawn Murin
Cynthia Sheppard
Mark Winters
Kimberly Kreines
Mel Li
James Wyatt
Cynthia Sheppard
Jenna Helland
Doug Beyer
James Wyatt
Ari Levitch
Jeremy Jarvis

Editing

Nat Moes (lead)

Product Architect

Mark Globus

With R&D Contributions by:

James Arnold
Andrew Brown
Melissa DeTroa
Kelly Digges
Ian Duke
Ethan Fleischer
Jane Flohrschutz
Aaron Forsythe
Marisa Fulmer
Mark Gottlieb
Ben Hayes
Mark Heggen
Dan Helland
Dave Humpherys
Glenn Jones
Del Laugel
Jackie Lee
Peter Lee
Ari Levitch
Shawn Main
Bill McQuillan
Alli Medwin
Ken Nagle
Drew Nolosco
Jules Robins
Bill Rose
Mark Rosewater
Rob Schuster
Eli Shiffrin
Sam Stoddard
Matt Tabak
Gavin Verhey

Brand Team

Adam Colby
April Glass
Brian Trunk
Courtney Kim
Elaine Chase
Gerrit Turner
Mark Purvis
Matt Danner
Nick Wolfram
Rebecca Shepard

CAPS

Andy Smith
Barry Craig
BJ Keeley
Bree Heiss
Brian Dumas
Curt Gould
Erik Metzler
Erika Vergel de Dios
Erin Lester
Godot Gutierre
Jefferson Dunlap
Kana Suzuki
Kelly Bingham
Kevin Yee
Kim Graham
Lisa Hanson
Mari Hall
Marsha Rivera-Fletcher
Matt Cavotta
Mike Demaine
Nancy Herring
Nate Herring
Nathan Greene
Rie Yamazaki
Robert Drawbaugh
Shelley Munnell
Steve Nashem
Will Ansell


That is a goddamn massive team

EDIT: For comparison, Eternal Masters and MM17 full teams were 7 people each.

 

[Ashodin]

Reserve list is gone with a team like that.

 

[Ultimate_Trainer]

Is the Worldbuilding credits for the people who previously made the cards and intergrated them into their original sets or something else?

Also James Wyatt is listed twice in worldbuilding lol.

 

[Bandini]

I would have Vintage paper decks for sure if the reserve list was gone. It would be a big boon for Magic's overall health, imo. I understand them wanting not to get embroiled in lawsuits, but really, how strong of a case can these "investors" have?