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Magic: the Gathering |OT12| Hour of Devastation - Hour of Jace getting dunked on
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
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How about we just don't ban anything because Modern is so fucking sweet right now
Look, a fucking U/B Improvise deck finished 9th at the SCG Classic this weekend, and a Enduring Ideal deck T16.
Look, a fucking U/B Improvise deck finished 9th at the SCG Classic this weekend, and a Enduring Ideal deck T16.
charlequin
Banned
I would be utterrly shocked if they banned anything in Modern at this next announcement, but I would certainly agree that Street Wraith is gonna hang out on the watchlist for any moment where the format is a bit less open.
This is just funny to me since after Street Wraith was introduced -- with the express intent of letting people play 56 cards -- a lot of people got worried about this possibility and it basically never really manifested, then suddenly in this last year or so where people found a way to actually benefit from the life loss it's a big thing.
This is just funny to me since after Street Wraith was introduced -- with the express intent of letting people play 56 cards -- a lot of people got worried about this possibility and it basically never really manifested, then suddenly in this last year or so where people found a way to actually benefit from the life loss it's a big thing.
Infinite Stars
Member
I mean, I get that? But there's also things like the Mono White list running 4 copies of Relic, so I'm not sure if it's just weakness or bad positioning? My main reason for not putting Dredge up there is that Affinity can win a game even following a turn 2 Stony Silence and they have no answers. Dredge can't really do that with Rest in Peace.
I'm not advocating for a ban, Modern is probably the best it's ever been right now. The issues that are currently plaguing the format(which are small gripes) is that nearly answer we get through Standard(of which Fatal Push is a big exception) aren't anywhere close to the threats that we've gotten. Emrakul TPE can be cast Turn 4 in GB Tron in Modern for 10 mana while the similar effect of Mindslaver costs the same and isn't stapled to a 13/13.
Also that list is totally Tezzeretor and not Improvise.
Modern is, there's a wide variety of decks, I just wish that we'd have a fully balanced color format.
Imperfected
Member
You don't necessarily want full RPS style balance. That's usually not only impossible in a practical sense, but not particularly desirable. You just want to make sure the imbalances are interesting and create a dynamic set of options.
charlequin
Banned
I do think it's one or two wrong new cards away from being oppressive though. So we'll see how things go
Yeah, basically there's no reason to ban something now while the format is in a great place when they can just wait until a future set unbalances it and ban then.
blindrocket
Member
I agree. The card has been used in Living End for years (along with Simian Spirit Guide) and I don't believe anyone batted an eye. Living End was some kind of budget deck that people didn't really take seriously, much like TWoo himself. lol
It's completely dead a lot of the time since you can't cycle it like you can cycle unearth, the grixis list can't hit the delve creatures form this reanimation spell, do you really want this over kolaghans command? I think it's a 1-2 out of the board against removal heavy decks and nothing more tbh.I am a bit scared of the effect this card might have on Grixis DS though, it just looks made for the deck.
Big Icarus
Member
I am a bit scared of the effect this card might have on Grixis DS though, it just looks made for the deck.
I'll come out and admit the Grixis DS is my primary Modern deck. I see what people are considering with this card, but I can't imagine what I'd cut for it. For that effect, I think I'd rather always have Kolaghans Command, for the additional utility it has. I might consider Claim as something I can board in, maybe against the mirror. It's certainly not something I'm bringing in against any deck that can play Path
Had a ridiculous draft tonight. My first pack was garbage so my P1P1 was the green trial. At the end after skipping the rare in my first pack I some how ended up with 4 on color rares
Bounty of the Luxa
Drake Haven
Glyph Keeper
Champion of Rhonas
Angler Drake
Weaver of Currents
And 6 cyclers
It feels so good cheating in a Grester Sandwurm on curve with Champion of Rhonas
Bounty of the Luxa
Drake Haven
Glyph Keeper
Champion of Rhonas
Angler Drake
Weaver of Currents
And 6 cyclers
It feels so good cheating in a Grester Sandwurm on curve with Champion of Rhonas
Giant Panda
Member
Oh I just remembered, a generic named ninjutsu would be perfect for a U/B combat ability.
Ninjitsu is too complicated to be evergreen. It also doesn't have a ton of design space.
Skulk might have been a bit more workable if it had a number attached, or even just had a built in flat rate. Skulk 3 (This creature can't be blocked by creatures with power 3 or greater).
skulk is a bad evergreen mechanic, so is "can't be blocked by creatures with power greater than". You can throw it on random cards occasionally but those are boring and semi-useful creature abilities
Dimir is the spies guild, so let them peak at your opponent's hand, make them discard cards, manipulate your opponents deck (by changing the top cards, for example), manipulate opponent's creatures. The Ninjitsu idea is actually pretty neat, I think
Dimir is the spies guild, so let them peak at your opponent's hand, make them discard cards, manipulate your opponents deck (by changing the top cards, for example), manipulate opponent's creatures. The Ninjitsu idea is actually pretty neat, I think
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Is this about it?
WU - Flying
WB - Lifelink
WR - Double Strike / First Strike
WG - Reach / Vigilance / Trample (?)
UB - Flying 2
UR - Prowess
UG - Flash (?)
BR - Menace
BG - Deathtouch
RG - Trample
GW has no theme to their creatures at all they equally fly, trample, lifelink, reach, vigilance and more.
They could just template the "When ~ deals combat damage to a player draw a card" and make that one UB's keyword.
WU - Flying
WB - Lifelink
WR - Double Strike / First Strike
WG - Reach / Vigilance / Trample (?)
UB - Flying 2
UR - Prowess
UG - Flash (?)
BR - Menace
BG - Deathtouch
RG - Trample
GW has no theme to their creatures at all they equally fly, trample, lifelink, reach, vigilance and more.
Ravnica flavour is ravnica specific. Dimir is a spies guild but that doesn't define UB across planes.
They could just template the "When ~ deals combat damage to a player draw a card" and make that one UB's keyword.
that would work perfectly fine and is thematically appropriate for U/B, might be a bit too powerful though compared to other keywords. Maybe make it loot instead
When it comes to evergreen mechanics, they're specifically looking for combat mechanics for creatures. The reason Ninjutsu doesn't have a lot of design space is because saboteur effects don't have a lot of design space. It's part of the reason they ran out of things to do with cipher and we got Trait Doctoring. You need effects that are relevant only after combat, which means pump effects, granting combat abilities, tapping creatures, etc. are all out.
UG also has hexproof. BG both have regenerate (which they've replaced with "make indestructible until end of turn"). BR also has haste (though they tend to push G hasters more than black ones for constructed).
"God's Beard!"
Member
Speaking of Death's Shadow, these are the two lists I've been messing around with:
(the Ojutai's Command was a replacement for Claim//Fame before the card was up and I haven't changed it yet)
(the Ojutai's Command was a replacement for Claim//Fame before the card was up and I haven't changed it yet)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
There's a lot of overlap between these so I was trying to go for the most marquee keyword ability. Double/First Strike only share the same space as they are sort of similar mechanically.
charlequin
Banned
Finding a blue-black combat mechanic is so tough just because the limitations are so narrow. The ones we already have fit in a small number of buckets:
The obvious place to look for blue/black is evasion, but they already overlap in flying and get (non-keyworded) unblockable, so that doesn't really solve a problem. Changing how a creature attacks is tough since there's a limited number of things that happen on an attack, and we already mess with tapping and summoning sickness. Changing how it deals damage is tough as again the most obvious things for black (life, creature kill) are already taken and the obvious stuff for blue (bounce, card draw) is too big to use often and/or too out of flavor for black. Buffing the creature has a lot of room to work with as there's only one ability, but it'd be super weird to have two creature-buffing abilities in blue. That leaves protecting the creature, but here the problem is that hexproof is too good -- there's not a lot of room for a much worse protection mechanic than hexproof, and again it's hard to find something that fits black and blue.
It'd be kind of weird to bleed that into black given that it's already assigned to a different pair of colors, and they use it a fraction as often as the other evergreen keywords -- like I don't foresee a time when they would print 3-4 creatures that do this per set.
- Evasion (flying, menace)
- Changing how the creature attacks (haste, vigilance)
- Changing how or when a creature deals damage (trample, lifelink, deathtouch, first strike)
- Buffing the creature (prowess)
- Protecting the creature (hexproof)
The obvious place to look for blue/black is evasion, but they already overlap in flying and get (non-keyworded) unblockable, so that doesn't really solve a problem. Changing how a creature attacks is tough since there's a limited number of things that happen on an attack, and we already mess with tapping and summoning sickness. Changing how it deals damage is tough as again the most obvious things for black (life, creature kill) are already taken and the obvious stuff for blue (bounce, card draw) is too big to use often and/or too out of flavor for black. Buffing the creature has a lot of room to work with as there's only one ability, but it'd be super weird to have two creature-buffing abilities in blue. That leaves protecting the creature, but here the problem is that hexproof is too good -- there's not a lot of room for a much worse protection mechanic than hexproof, and again it's hard to find something that fits black and blue.
It'd be kind of weird to bleed that into black given that it's already assigned to a different pair of colors, and they use it a fraction as often as the other evergreen keywords -- like I don't foresee a time when they would print 3-4 creatures that do this per set.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Bummer they can't do this because of set limitations but wither, not named wither, would have been fitting. Black was big on wither in Shadowmoor and blue big on infect back in Phyrexia, it fits the back stabbing and scheming characteristic.
Some sort of weakening effect instead of buffing would be flavourful but is just difficult to do in a way that isn't too cumbersome. Icing creatures on damage doesn't fit black, anything with counters not simple enough,...
When ~ deals combat damage to a creature that creature phases out at the beginning of its controller's next upkeep. j/k
Backstab (Whenever a creature you control blocks or becomes blocked you may remove ~ from combat and have it deal damage to target blocking or blocked creature an opponent controls equal to its power.)
Is the best I can come up with right now for a combat mechanic in UB that fits the flavour.
Some sort of weakening effect instead of buffing would be flavourful but is just difficult to do in a way that isn't too cumbersome. Icing creatures on damage doesn't fit black, anything with counters not simple enough,...
When ~ deals combat damage to a creature that creature phases out at the beginning of its controller's next upkeep. j/k
Backstab (Whenever a creature you control blocks or becomes blocked you may remove ~ from combat and have it deal damage to target blocking or blocked creature an opponent controls equal to its power.)
Is the best I can come up with right now for a combat mechanic in UB that fits the flavour.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah I was thinking about that when I wrote that post, without the design issues it'd be close.
Looking thrrough some cards for ideas, I think you could probably get away with an ability that reduces power, like "Creatures blocked by this get -1/-0" or "When this attacks, give a creature/creatures -1/-0."
Flanking?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that was my issue. Making a UB combat mechanic is hard since it's a colour combo that doesn't want to get into a fair fight in the first place and the inverse of buffing has already been done by a colour that does the buffing.
I'd actually considered something similar. A fixed flanking would make a lot of sense for black, but for blue you'd likely need to keep it to only shrinking power, which is why I'd originally wrote it off. But I think "whenever a creature blocks this, that creature gets -1/-0 until end of turn" could actually work reasonably well. It has the benefit of pairing well with both menace (black), flying (blue; most fliers are small) and high toughness (which blue gets a lot of).
Poodlestrike
Banned
Ehhhh not strictly worse imo. Wither can kill Indestructable creatures and progressively makes big guys smaller each time they're hurt. There's also room to do stuff with those tokens after the fact, which is always fun.
That said, it's sorta moot since if they make Wither a UB keyword they can't use it in any set that has +1 tokens. Which is less than ideal.
How about something like... "when blocked ~ may choose to deal its combat damage to any blocking creature your opponent controls".
Infinite Stars
Member
If it weren't for the name, I could see something similar to Afflict being Blue Black.
One way or another, they get what they want (either get in for damage or make you lose life)
One way or another, they get what they want (either get in for damage or make you lose life)
SigmasonicX
Member
The problem with "blocking creatures get -1/-0" is that in most cases, it's effectively the same as just printing the creature with 1 extra toughness.
besides, until end of turn buffs/debuffs suck
it's highly statsifying to stack permanent -1/-1 counters on enemy creatures. Giving a creature -1/0 until end of turn doesn't have much of an effect gameplay-wise, and it's dreadfully unfun for the player since it barely does anything but slightly skews combat math for a turn
it's highly statsifying to stack permanent -1/-1 counters on enemy creatures. Giving a creature -1/0 until end of turn doesn't have much of an effect gameplay-wise, and it's dreadfully unfun for the player since it barely does anything but slightly skews combat math for a turn
not bad, but requiring two blocking creatures to activate is already highly situational
Here you go http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-07-17-breya-wip/
It's 2 cards short because I'm still debating on cuts. Anyone is free to chime in on changes
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
34 lands seems extremely low and a couple of those don't even tap for coloured mana. CIPT lands like temples are the worst in addition.
Yeah the CIPT lands are getting cut for either fetches or the full set of checklands. I wish I could afford duals but ya know. Also adding in the 1-2 more talismans for some creatures maybe
A lot of the low power Afflict creatures that have an effect when they aren't blocked seem like a good template for how I'd like a UB evergreen mechanic to be. It's not directly making the creatures hard to block, but it forces the opponent to chose between two bad outcomes, which I find to be really fun.
You guys aren't thinking creatively enough
Blue should get a shell game when they attack and the opponent has to pick the right one to block.
Whenever ~ attacks, create a 1/1 Illusion creature tapped and attacking with "Whenever this creature is targeted by a spell or ability, sacrifice it." Turn both creatures face down. If a player assigns a creature to block ~, choose one of the creatures at random.
I mean yeah that's a lot of text, but I think Blue should get some sort of "blur" ability.
Whenever ~ attacks, ~ can't be blocked unless defending player pays {1}.
Basically a tax on blocking.
Blue should get a shell game when they attack and the opponent has to pick the right one to block.
Whenever ~ attacks, create a 1/1 Illusion creature tapped and attacking with "Whenever this creature is targeted by a spell or ability, sacrifice it." Turn both creatures face down. If a player assigns a creature to block ~, choose one of the creatures at random.
I mean yeah that's a lot of text, but I think Blue should get some sort of "blur" ability.
Whenever ~ attacks, ~ can't be blocked unless defending player pays {1}.
Basically a tax on blocking.
Ignoring the other issues, neither of those abilities works well in black.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
you don't want creative but simple and easily recognizable. Prowess is already skirting the edges of acceptable and it gets much less cards as a result.
Blue blur would be menace.
Big Icarus
Member
I always liked saboteur style effects on Blue + Black creatures. I think giving UB creatures on damage effects that have fair repercussions, and putting them on low power bodies makes sense.
Something like Shadowmage Infiltrator. Just give them this more often, maybe without drawing on the connect each time.
Something like Shadowmage Infiltrator. Just give them this more often, maybe without drawing on the connect each time.
I like blue/black being something like Afflict where it allows you to get cards if they do block with more with one creature.
Disdain (When this creature becomes blocked, draw a card if two or more creatures are blocking it. If only one creature blocks this creature, its controller loses 1 life.)
So this way, you could make the opponent have to choose whether to throw only one target on it, and Menace on the creature would be gravy.
I dunno this shit is hard
Disdain (When this creature becomes blocked, draw a card if two or more creatures are blocking it. If only one creature blocks this creature, its controller loses 1 life.)
So this way, you could make the opponent have to choose whether to throw only one target on it, and Menace on the creature would be gravy.
I dunno this shit is hard
I like the looting on damage idea. It feels about as powerful as the other combat keywords and feels U/B while also advancing what U/B's gameplan is, and there's design space to work around making a card that loots on damage more interesting.
Like, putting a loot on damage keyword on shades/the +1/-1 thing blue creatures get is interesting gameplay the same way prowess is.
Like, putting a loot on damage keyword on shades/the +1/-1 thing blue creatures get is interesting gameplay the same way prowess is.
Royal_Flush
Member
Although i loathe the mechanic I think it's very interesting in that context that landwalk was mainly UBg in its later stages. Would fit the bill for an U/B evasive mechanic.
blindrocket
Member
I finished my play set of Baleful Strix this weekend and thought how I wished it were legal in Modern.
It got me thinking though being a sweet UB costed creature, flying and deathtouch, 1/1 and has card draw when it comes into the battlefield. What makes this a great creature for those colors? Obviously the card draw but it's also a great blocker with the flying and deathtouch.
Perhaps a UB mechanic that buffs the creatures power but also enables some card draw. Like maybe you get card draw when it enters the battlefield, but it also puts a +1/+1 counter on the creature for every card drawn until end of turn.
Think of a combination of Baleful Strix and Glaze Fiend (but not artifacts causing the buff, actual card draw).
It got me thinking though being a sweet UB costed creature, flying and deathtouch, 1/1 and has card draw when it comes into the battlefield. What makes this a great creature for those colors? Obviously the card draw but it's also a great blocker with the flying and deathtouch.
Perhaps a UB mechanic that buffs the creatures power but also enables some card draw. Like maybe you get card draw when it enters the battlefield, but it also puts a +1/+1 counter on the creature for every card drawn until end of turn.
Think of a combination of Baleful Strix and Glaze Fiend (but not artifacts causing the buff, actual card draw).
blindrocket
Member
Speaking of Glaze Fiend, I loved that card, such a cool common.
1B to cast, so he's relatively low CMC. An Artifact Creature - Illusion. Already he's an artifact himself.
Flying.
And that +2/+2 buff is no slouch. He can really be abused in the right deck. I remember the original Duels of the Planeswalkers they had a deck that utilized Howling Mine, a bunch of artifacts and Glaze Fiend. I liked it so much I bought the cards to play it myself for some fun kitchen table Magic.
1B to cast, so he's relatively low CMC. An Artifact Creature - Illusion. Already he's an artifact himself.
Flying.
And that +2/+2 buff is no slouch. He can really be abused in the right deck. I remember the original Duels of the Planeswalkers they had a deck that utilized Howling Mine, a bunch of artifacts and Glaze Fiend. I liked it so much I bought the cards to play it myself for some fun kitchen table Magic.
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