Support NeoGAF

[kirblar]

The sharp cut is from Khans to FRF. You can't have any of the Khans mechanics in FRF because that leaks them into DRG. All of the "new" clan mechanics are showing up in FRF, likely to be continued in smaller doses in DRG.

 

[Arksy]

The sharp cut is from Khans to FRF. You can't have any of the Khans mechanics in FRF because that leaks them into DRG. All of the "new" clan mechanics are showing up in FRF, likely to be continued in smaller doses in DRG.

I was under the impression KTK and FRF were being rotated out at the same time.

 

[kirblar]

I was under the impression KTK and FRF were being rotated out at the same time.

Draft structures, not rotations.

K/K/K
F/K/K
D/D/F

This is why you have to make a clean mechanical cut w/ FRF.

 

[Hero]

The Khans of Tarkir mechanics aren't going to be in Dragons, nobody disagrees with that. My claim:

1) They're not going to introduce five brand-new mechanics in a small set (they've never done more than three outside crazy Future Sight land) or set up a two-set draft format to have eleven keywords.
2) Since Bolster is the FRF Abzan mechanic (the card has the watermark) there are going to be clan mechanics in FRF.
3) Every clan will have the same number of exclusive mechanics over the block -- they won't give two to Abzan and one to Jeskai, or whatever.
4) If all of that is true, then there must be clan mechanics in DTK, and they must be introducing a few of them in FRF.

Just in general, I don't buy the idea that there needs to be a sharp cut from FRF to DTK. Dragons and Khans need to play completely differently, since they're the two alternate futures, but the whole concept of FRF is that it's the past that can develop into either one depending on what happens with Ugin. There must be some common mechanical themes that continue from FRF to DTK, to sell the idea that the one develops into the other (and just to make the draft format work.)

I follow your thought process but I don't think they're going to split the "second set" of mechanics over FRF and DTK since the numbers would be too skewed. I understand that you say they've never introduced 5 new mechanics in a small set before but with Khans block being the last "traditional" 3-set block I can see them doing this just to say they did it. I'm thinking every clan will have a unique mechanic in all three sets. If you think about it, none of the mechanics so far are really that complicated.

 

[ThLunarian]

My card shop is having a chaos draft Christmas party.

Pack one pick one? Worldknit.

This is the most fun I've had at a Magic tournament in a long time. All 69 cards in my deck are super awesome.

Sorry to quote myself, but I wanted to update you guys to tell you that I 3-0'd the draft. With my 69 card Worldknit deck

I have wanted to draft a Worldknit deck since the card was spoiled. When the first pack of tonight's Chaos Draft turned out to be Conspiracy, before I opened it I said "Come on, Worldknit..."

And there it was!

This victory will stay with me through the ages. Life is good.

 

[charlequin]

The sharp cut is from Khans to FRF.

How does this make sense? They've got wedge khans in FRF. These two sets draft together first, before DTK even shows up. They've said that Khans is already near the top of allowable complexity for a draft format just by itself. FRF has to be the past of both big sets and it seems like it's built around a duality theme, with cards that have binary choices between things that point to the two different futures. I don't see from the block description why there would be a "sharp cut" on either side between sets that are supposed to be drafted together.

 

[kirblar]

How does this make sense? They've got wedge khans in FRF. These two sets draft together first, before DTK even shows up. They've said that Khans is already near the top of allowable complexity for a draft format just by itself. FRF has to be the past of both big sets and it seems like it's built around a duality theme, with cards that have binary choices between things that point to the two different futures. I don't see from the block description why there would be a "sharp cut" on either side between sets that are supposed to be drafted together.

They're not going to be wedge Khans in DTK, you'll normally be using the ally-color activation. Hence the hybrid. The clans are likely going to cut a color. (Providing them with the missing "third wheel" of cards that weren't in KTK.)

The Khans mechanics are generally super-simple, and Bolster is a super-simple mechanic as well.

You''re missing that the Khans mechanics can't be allowed into FRF because that means they're in DTK limited. That ruins the gimmick.

 

[Wichu]

Speaking of tutors, can someone who's more familiar with the format help me with my mono-black EDH deck? I'm not very competitive in EDH, but I have so much stuff in the deck I figured I might as well round it out. Nothing more than 20 bucks, please.

I'm personally not a big fan of tutors in EDH, as playing a lot of them tends to make games into very linear combo-offs. But if you're fine with that, more power to you

First of all, a bunch of your creatures seem rather low-impact in a multiplayer format (e.g. Bloodsoaked Champion, Geralf's Messenger, Lifebane Zombie). In the late-game, you'll never want to topdeck these, and they're not fast enough to kill early. If you want to keep them in, consider playing more sacrifice outlets so they're not just dead in the late-game.

Play less one-shot single-target removal and more wraths and reusable removal. Single-target removal in multiplayer is basically just card disadvantage, as you're using up a card but having no effect on at least one opponent. Similarly for Thoughtseize effects. You want cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Attrition etc.

Maralen of the Mornsong is bad. The first thing anyone will tutor up is some way to kill her and stop you getting the tutor and comboing off. If you want more generic tutor effects, there's Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Revelation, Increasing Ambition, and Rune-Scarred Demon.

I would play more mana acceleration. Your commander provides repeatable card draw, so you'll want to be able to use that as much as possible. Stuff like Charcoal Diamond, Myriad Landscape, Crypt Ghast, Caged Sun etc.

On the topic of your commander, where is his Whip? Lifelink on everything + repeatable recursion is always good.

Have you checked MTGSalvation's top 50 in each colour? That and edhrec are really useful when building decks.

 

[Arksy]

I got a bit of a dilemma. I feel like at some point I'm going to need to get into standard. All I've been doing is drafting KTK so far. Should I wait till the previous blocks rotate out and make a standard deck using as many of the cards I've drafted up to that point?

I kind of want to start playing standard but I'm not super keen on back-buying cards. Are there good decks made of entirely KTK cards?

 

[Firemind]

I'm personally not a big fan of tutors in EDH, as playing a lot of them tends to make games into very linear combo-offs. But if you're fine with that, more power to you

First of all, a bunch of your creatures seem rather low-impact in a multiplayer format (e.g. Bloodsoaked Champion, Geralf's Messenger, Lifebane Zombie). In the late-game, you'll never want to topdeck these, and they're not fast enough to kill early. If you want to keep them in, consider playing more sacrifice outlets so they're not just dead in the late-game.

Play less one-shot single-target removal and more wraths and reusable removal. Single-target removal in multiplayer is basically just card disadvantage, as you're using up a card but having no effect on at least one opponent. Similarly for Thoughtseize effects. You want cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Attrition etc.

Maralen of the Mornsong is bad. The first thing anyone will tutor up is some way to kill her and stop you getting the tutor and comboing off. If you want more generic tutor effects, there's Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Revelation, Increasing Ambition, and Rune-Scarred Demon.

I would play more mana acceleration. Your commander provides repeatable card draw, so you'll want to be able to use that as much as possible. Stuff like Charcoal Diamond, Myriad Landscape, Crypt Ghast, Caged Sun etc.

On the topic of your commander, where is his Whip? Lifelink on everything + repeatable recursion is always good.

Have you checked MTGSalvation's top 50 in each colour? That and edhrec are really useful when building decks.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure why Darkness is in there. It's no Darkest Hour, but it's not far off. Dark Ritual is also kind of bad, but at least it has nostalgic value.

Cards I've seen mono black EDH decks play that haven't been mentioned: Mind Twist (probably the most unfair card in EDH that isn't a combo), Promise of Power, Herald of Leshrac, Coffin Queen, Geth, Ascendant Evincar and Spirit of the Night (for the cool factor).

 

[BlewHedgehog]

I got a bit of a dilemma. I feel like at some point I'm going to need to get into standard. All I've been doing is drafting KTK so far. Should I wait till the previous blocks rotate out and make a standard deck using as many of the cards I've drafted up to that point?

I kind of want to start playing standard but I'm not super keen on back-buying cards. Are there good decks made of entirely KTK cards?

It'll be a long wait until October if you decide to hold out for rotation. Right now is a very good time to buy into standard as the prices of a lot of cards have bottomed out for the holidays. The Jeskai Tokens deck which won the SCG Invitational last week can be purchased for $200 or so (less if you've opened up Flooded Strands in draft).

If you're thrifty, you can trade rotating cards this summer before they lose most of their value for useful things that will stick around. I find that if I have built two decks for standard (one to play and the other to trade toward the next thing I want to build), the amount of money you have to pay to stay current is pretty minimal.

 

[MjFrancis]

I just noticed that the U/W Control deck that got third in Seattle last week had a single Whelming Wave in the sideboard to use with Pearl Lake Ancient. Someone had to take advantage of that eventually. It seemed like a combo everyone and their mother shit on for the past three months so it's nice to see someone try in at a competitive level anyways.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm personally not a big fan of tutors in EDH, as playing a lot of them tends to make games into very linear combo-offs. But if you're fine with that, more power to you

First of all, a bunch of your creatures seem rather low-impact in a multiplayer format (e.g. Bloodsoaked Champion, Geralf's Messenger, Lifebane Zombie). In the late-game, you'll never want to topdeck these, and they're not fast enough to kill early. If you want to keep them in, consider playing more sacrifice outlets so they're not just dead in the late-game.

Play less one-shot single-target removal and more wraths and reusable removal. Single-target removal in multiplayer is basically just card disadvantage, as you're using up a card but having no effect on at least one opponent. Similarly for Thoughtseize effects. You want cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Attrition etc.

Maralen of the Mornsong is bad. The first thing anyone will tutor up is some way to kill her and stop you getting the tutor and comboing off. If you want more generic tutor effects, there's Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Revelation, Increasing Ambition, and Rune-Scarred Demon.

I would play more mana acceleration. Your commander provides repeatable card draw, so you'll want to be able to use that as much as possible. Stuff like Charcoal Diamond, Myriad Landscape, Crypt Ghast, Caged Sun etc.

On the topic of your commander, where is his Whip? Lifelink on everything + repeatable recursion is always good.

Have you checked MTGSalvation's top 50 in each colour? That and edhrec are really useful when building decks.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add the whip, it's in my deck

As far as the single shot stuff, I guess you're right but I tend to play 1-v-1 commander more than multiplayer.

Geralf's Messenger is definitely not great, I just like that it adds so much devotion for 3 mana. My foil Lifebane is awesome :c More importantly, there's a lot of green decks in the people I play that make it cool. BSC is there for sacrifice fodder since I can activate it any number of times per turn. Good call on Attrition, forgot about that one. I know Thoughtseize is bad, but I get so scared of stuff black can't deal with :-( Also, Thoughtseize Pack Rat :3

I only play Maralen as the last part of the combo to kill people with Ob Nixilis + Sorin Markov. They can't tutor removal at that point.

Good call again on all the fast mana stuff, but I can't play Crypt Ghast because it has white mana symbols. Lots of good advice, I'll check out the link as well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure why Darkness is in there. It's no Darkest Hour, but it's not far off. Dark Ritual is also kind of bad, but at least it has nostalgic value.

Cards I've seen mono black EDH decks play that haven't been mentioned: Mind Twist (probably the most unfair card in EDH that isn't a combo), Promise of Power, Herald of Leshrac, Coffin Queen, Geth, Ascendant Evincar and Spirit of the Night (for the cool factor).

Darkness is awesome! Troll it up.
Promise of Power seems better than Sanguimancy lol
I think I like Helldozer better than the Herald guy. Coffin Queen is awesome.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

My favorite mono-black tutor is Beseech the Queen. It feels almost fair.

 

[MjFrancis]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144282208]
Good call again on all the fast mana stuff, but I can't play Crypt Ghast because it has white mana symbols.[/QUOTE]Crypt Ghast is alright. It's in the Mono-Black precon and the hybrid symbol is in the reminder text, which does not contribute to a card's color identity.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Crypt Ghast is alright. It's in the Mono-Black precon and the hybrid symbol is in the reminder text, which does not contribute to a card's color identity.

So you're telling me I could have been playing Thrull Parasite this whole time?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Yes. Extort is legal in EDH in mono-black and mono-white. It's kind of odd that way.

 

[charlequin]

They're not going to be wedge Khans in DTK

There... are, though? Yasova's as much a Temur card as, say, Marisi's Twinclaws is a Naya card.

I really think you're fundamentally misreading the block structure here, but at this point there's nothing to do but wait it out, I guess.

 

["God's Beard!"]

What programs do people use to record MTGO? I'm in a position to win some 8-4s for Grimace now. Probably just uninstall the program after, I dunno what I'd do with a bunch of digital cards unless WanderingWind wants a bunch of draft leftovers.

 

[Firemind]

looooooooool I'm playing so badly but I'm winning anyway. I should quit while I'm ahead.

The power of Tinker:

I also lost to Time Vault/Key multiple times now. The hype is real.

 

[ThLunarian]

I think Vault / Key is probably too good to be in cube. There just aren't enough ways to interact with it and the mana costs are too cheap. They screwed up on that one.

 

[kirblar]

I think Vault / Key is probably too good to be in cube. There just aren't enough ways to interact with it and the mana costs are too cheap. They screwed up on that one.

Larger problem is that Time Vault itself is the best card in the cube because it has 4+ enablers. Key is fine, Vault isn't.

 

[charlequin]

I just installed VMWare Workstation on my laptop so I could play MTGO during my two weeks staying with the in-laws. What is wrong with me. ;_;

I think Vault / Key is probably too good to be in cube. There just aren't enough ways to interact with it and the mana costs are too cheap. They screwed up on that one.

Someone thought they were being cute by putting in Time Vault and a bunch of enablers, but it's actually just not fun and there are too many ways to get it online so basically anyone who drafts the Vault will be able to just steal wins with it. Ah well.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I have a MODO account. God have mercy on me.

Add me: HeebyGB

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144360121]I have a MODO account. God have mercy on me.

Add me: HeebyGB[/QUOTE]

Should have made it last week when you woulda got a free Holiday Cube.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Should have made it last week when you woulda got a free Holiday Cube.

I didn't have reliable internet access last week.

 

["God's Beard!"]

fucking decide to go first already goddamn it >:|

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144361852]fucking decide to go first already goddamn it >:|[/QUOTE]

It's modo, be happy they don't tell you fuck yourself. (mostly they don't talk). I sold out of my Vendilion Cliques on MTGO. I just don't see Faeries being competitive for now with Delver dominating Modern. So now I'm playing a shitty hatebears Aether Vial Dark Confidant brew that makes me happy to play but I lose a lot more.

You can add me at: mooshimanx

 

["God's Beard!"]

I didn't know camping was a strategy in MODO.

Bold move, bowser2025. Bore me into concession.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144362032]I didn't know camping was a strategy in MODO.

Bold move, bowser2025. Bore me into concession.[/QUOTE]

Everyone hates slow guys on MTGO, but the level of testing you can do on your brews and decks is pretty unparalleled.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Everyone hates slow guys on MTGO, but the level of testing you can do on your brews and decks is pretty unparalleled.

Well I just paid ten bucks to sit on my ass for 9 minutes while my opponent timed himself out. Now I guess I sit around and wait for the round to end? Can I even troll around for trades like in real life? I think I got a cone of flame in my shitty startup kit.

Man, great first impression.

How do you even do testing? Do you have to buy all the cards from bots then make 2-mans? Or is there a way to just fuck around with proxy decks?

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144362398]Well I just paid ten bucks to sit on my ass for 9 minutes while my opponent timed himself out. Now I guess I sit around and wait for the round to end? Can I even troll around for trades like in real life? I think I got a cone of flame in my shitty startup kit.

Man, great first impression.

How do you even do testing? Do you have to buy all the cards from bots then make 2-mans? Or is there a way to just fuck around with proxy decks?[/QUOTE]

The daily events are where hardcore grinders are playing.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The daily events are where hardcore grinders are playing.

What about the testing?

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144363928]What about the testing?[/QUOTE]

I mean, you can talk to them and set up matches. No, modo doesn't have the magic ability to make you friends.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I mean, you can talk to them and set up matches.

I mean, do you have to go around and get cards just for testing or is there like a practice area?

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144364453]I mean, do you have to go around and get cards just for testing or is there like a practice area?[/QUOTE]

No, you do have to have the cards. I suppose in that sense its easier to make proxies, but it also just takes a long time and you have a much more limited number of people to play with.

If you're wondering, Hooting Mandrills costs 1 cent on modo

 

["God's Beard!"]

No, you do have to have the cards. I suppose in that sense its easier to make proxies, but it also just takes a long time and you have a much more limited number of people to play with.

If you're wondering, Hooting Mandrills costs 1 cent on modo

I dunno, I can call up half a dozen people from different shops around the bay area no problem, and printing a few sheets of proxies takes like 15 minutes to turn into decks. I really don't want to have to buy a ton of decks just for testing, seems so bad.

I did win the one match I got to actually play in the draft, so I guess that's enough practice with the program to jam some 8-4s sometime this week.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144364891]I dunno, I can call up half a dozen people from different shops around the bay area no problem, and printing a few sheets of proxies takes like 15 minutes to turn into decks. I really don't want to have to buy a ton of decks just for testing, seems so bad.

I did win the one match I got to actually play in the draft, so I guess that's enough practice with the program to jam some 8-4s sometime this week.[/QUOTE]

If your method was easier, that's what the pros would do, and they do sometimes, but sometimes you want to test a new deck at 11 pm in your underwear.

And lets be honest, your friends are probably of questionable skill (at least some of them).

 

[Arksy]

What's MODO?

 

[Angry Grimace]

What's MODO?

MTGO and MODO are the same thing. MTGO was originally called Magic Online with Digital Objects.

 

["God's Beard!"]

If your method was easier, that's what the pros would do, and they do sometimes, but sometimes you want to test a new deck at 11 pm in your underwear.

And lets be honest, your friends are probably of questionable skill (at least some of them).

Yeah, the people I play against range in the typical-PTQ-grinder to SCG Open Champion levels, but most fall somewhere around there. The last time 4 of us went to an open, all of us got top 64 which was cool. Definitely nobody in my group on the top level PT champ levels or anything though, but for the most part they're pretty good players and I don't need to hold their hands. I think it's more of me being super lucky to be in a condensed magic area in the US than pros being stupid. I can see the advantage if you have a website giving you support for cards, but why would I buy Jeskai Tokens or Esper Control if I'm never going to enter a tournament with them? Just seems like such a waste of money, not to mention splitting my collection.

I have a stack of proxied decks in a box that I try to keep relatively updated, and it cost me the price of ink.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144365461]Yeah, the people I play against range in the typical-PTQ-grinder to SCG Open Champion levels, but most fall somewhere around there. The last time 4 of us went to an open, all of us got top 64 which was cool. Definitely nobody in my group on the top level PT champ levels or anything though, but for the most part they're pretty good players and I don't need to hold their hands. I think it's more of me being super lucky to be in a condensed magic area in the US than pros being stupid. I can see the advantage if you have a website giving you support for cards, but why would I buy Jeskai Tokens or Esper Control if I'm never going to enter a tournament with them? Just seems like such a waste of money, not to mention splitting my collection.

I have a stack of proxied decks in a box that I try to keep relatively updated, and it cost me the price of ink.[/QUOTE]Because you can enter tournaments on MTGO. You aren't supposed to buy it as a substitute for Cockatrice.

I have no vested interest in whether you play MTGO or not, so I mean, whatever. If you think it sucks, don't play it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Because you can enter tournaments on MTGO. You aren't supposed to buy it as a substitute for Cockatrice.

I have no vested interest in whether you play MTGO or not, so I mean, whatever. If you think it sucks, don't play it.

I'm just genuinely curious because everybody says "MTGO sucks but testing is so godlike it's worth it".

And I'm just gonna uninstall it after some drafts. Kinda rude to say you don't care when you wanted me to record some drafts for you to begin with. Gotta prove I'm not just some narcissistic asshole.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144366268]I'm just genuinely curious because everybody says "MTGO sucks but testing is so godlike it's worth it".

And I'm just gonna uninstall it after some drafts. Kinda rude to say you don't care when you wanted me to record some drafts for you to begin with. Gotta prove I'm not just some narcissistic asshole.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure how you don't understand why its good for testing. I really don't. I genuinely can't tell if you're being serious or not.

 

[WanderingWind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144366268]I'm just genuinely curious because everybody says "MTGO sucks but testing is so godlike it's worth it".

And I'm just gonna uninstall it after some drafts. Kinda rude to say you don't care when you wanted me to record some drafts for you to begin with. Gotta prove I'm not just some narcissistic asshole.[/QUOTE]

lol.

Look, MTGO is buggy, but most people can't just test a deck whenever they'd like. If you've already got a really skilled playgroup that can play whenever you'd like, it's probably not going to be worth the investment. It's great for people like me who have no store or playgroup nearby.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm not sure how you don't understand why its good for testing. I really don't. I genuinely can't tell if you're being serious or not.

No, I get it. I just don't want to spend money on cards twice :-(

The original question was just whether I could fuck around like on cockatrice, and you answered that. The other comment was just cause you kinda dissed my playgroup.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";144366682]No, I get it. I just don't want to spend money on cards twice :-(

The original question was just whether I could fuck around like on cockatrice, and you answered that. The other comment was just cause you kinda dissed my playgroup.[/QUOTE]

So sorry I didn't have psychic powers to know about your on-demand playgroup of professional level players. C'mon, man.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The other reason people like MTGO beyond drafting in your underwear at 11 PM is that on occasion people can actually afford formats other than Standard. Basically any good Legacy deck costs 5 times as much as my entire MTGO collection, almost all of which is basically liquid if I wanted to sell it all off to bots.

 

[Arksy]

My friends legacy deck costs over a grand in lands alone....it's insane.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

A few other things in MTGO testing. Even it you have a solid play group, your competition likely did a lot of testing there. The meta on MTGO is very inbred and tends to solve itself into a suboptimal state pretty quickly - you need to know what the online grinders are doing when approaching a tournament.

The same can be true for a testing group. You can get stuck in ruts, playing against the same players with the same tendencies. Getting some reps in against a different set of players can be hugely valuable.

That being said: the tourney practice room and the 2-man queues are crap. The DEs are where the competition is, and it's not necessarily easy to schedule that in.

And I'm typing this from my phone at Disney's Animal Kingdom. While riding the Animal Safari tour. I just saw some actual mandrills and they actually hooted at me. So I feel like I'm an expert now.