Support NeoGAF

[Angry Grimace]

Betas shouldn't even be counted as a transitional period. There were so many bugs that made it borderline unplayable for many people. Even during the spotlight, the last time I actually tried to play, there were basic problems that shouldn't have made it past day 1 of testing like the tiny cards surrounded by a huge, unused play area. Nobody should have been expected to waste their time, money, and patience preparing for the eventual downgrade to V4.

"Betas shouldn't be counted as a transitional period" makes no sense at all. What else is there you can do to create a "transitional period?" The beta client has functioned practically identically for the last 5 months or something as it does now.

I'm not telling you V4 is a good piece of software. I'm telling you V3 was a bad piece of software also, and many of the things people hate are just things they're used to from V3 that still exist, but are harder to find. I'm not saying that was a good idea, but the actual game functionality is not actually impaired.

I don't really understand where the targeting arrows went, and I don't like the way that the game manages the weird pop-up windows, but you do get used to them being that way, I suppose.

 

[ironmang]

"Betas shouldn't be counted as a transitional period" makes no sense at all. What else is there you can do to create a "transitional period?" The beta client has functioned practically identically for the last 5 months or something as it does now.

I'm not telling you V4 is a good piece of software. I'm telling you V3 was a bad piece of software also, and many of the things people hate are just things they're used to from V3 that still exist, but are harder to find. I'm not saying that was a good idea, but the actual game functionality is not actually impaired.

It absolutely makes sense. The beta should be for taking suggestions and fixing problems, not people wasting their time and money trying to play games of magic in preparation for V3 being discontinued. You can't blame people for not playing the beta. The fact that it's functioning the same for months at a time is part of the problem.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It absolutely makes sense. The beta should be for taking suggestions and fixing problems, not people wasting their time and money trying to play games of magic in preparation for V3 being discontinued. You can't blame people for not playing the beta. The fact that it's functioning the same for months at a time is part of the problem.

Except there is no other method to "transition" people to a completely different version other than an open beta, which they on occasion force people to use for a day or two.

Just saying "they should have cancelled V4" is neither here nor there. What exactly is it about this version that's killing the game for you?

 

[WanderingWind]

It absolutely makes sense. The beta should be for taking suggestions and fixing problems, not people wasting their time and money trying to play games of magic in preparation for V3 being discontinued. You can't blame people for not playing the beta. The fact that it's functioning the same for months at a time is part of the problem.

I mean, aside from the client issues, a beta is almost always used as a transition point in mulitplayer video games. That argument doesn't make a lot of sense, to be honest.

 

[ironmang]

Except there is no other method to "transition" people to a completely different version other than an open beta, which they on occasion force people to use for a day or two.

Just saying "they should have cancelled V4" is neither here nor there. What exactly is it about this version that's killing the game for you?

They can help people transition by making V4 even remotely resemble V3. They didn't have to 100% change everything.

The whole way information is presented is a problem. Everything in V3 was easy to find. Navigating the stack is a pain in the ass now.

I mean, aside from the client issues, a beta is almost always used as a transition point in mulitplayer video games. That argument doesn't make a lot of sense, to be honest.

How was the beta a transition point? There's no reason to use it as a preparation for V4 replacing V3 since the change is the same whether you start in the middle of the beta or at the release of V4. Joining during the beta seems even worse since you're dealing with bugs that didn't exist in V3 and theoretically should be fixed by V4 release.

Only talking about how it effects the player btw.

 

[CeruleanSilver]

BTW, if anyone hasn't seen it, the kickstarter for John Avon's art book is about to end. The next stretch goal is <£5000 away

Spoiler

I want my Clifftop Retreat print

.

EDIT: Maths fail.

Avon makes some really beautiful land artwork. I love the glow and warmth of light in his work. Some of my favorites:

However, in visiting that Kickstarter and his professional webpage I learned that he also makes super tacky ZZ Top artwork:

haha, yuck!

 

[The Technomancer]

However, in visiting that Kickstarter and his professional webpage I learned that he also makes super tacky ZZ Top artwork:

haha, yuck!

what the fuck

 

[acheron_xl]

However, in visiting that Kickstarter and his professional webpage I learned that he also makes super tacky ZZ Top artwork:

haha, yuck!

I'm strangely intrigued.

 

[WanderingWind]

How was the beta a transition point? There's no reason to use it as a preparation for V4 replacing V3 since the change is the same whether you start in the middle of the beta or at the release of V4. Joining during the beta seems even worse since you're dealing with bugs that didn't exist in V3 and theoretically should be fixed by V4 release.

Only talking about how it effects the player btw.

You seem to be confused as to what a beta is and how it works. Beta versions are inherently buggy. Beta versions are supposed to be worse than final release products.You say there was no reason to use it...except to get used to switch to that client as the official release. That makes the last 2 years a transitional period, during which WotC added to the beta version.

I get the hate toward the client, mostly from watching streams where the thing seems to crash about every hour. What I don't get is the odd expectation that a beta program was supposed to be bug free. Now that it's the official V4, those bugs are much, much less acceptable.

 

[JulianImp]

So, we had our local M15 prereleases delayed a week, and when it finally came I was the only player who showed up... After four or so months of not playing MtG, this was kind of a rough wake-up call. It seems like my LGS, which was thriving less than half a year ago, is now in bad shape; since not even the regulars came, I guess it's even worse than I had originally thought.

Meanwhile, my favorite izzet deck will continue gathering dust until Khans rotates in and forces me to dismantle it, which is a huge bummer. If this keeps up, I'll probably end up dropping MtG entirely, since there's no point in getting more cards when I don't even get to play them.

I'll probably consider selling my collection, but while I do have some valuable cards in there (mostly the judge promos and one or two copies of some Modern staples), there's so much chaff that I'd probably get next to nothing for that I don't even feel like turning it all over. I guess I still feel iffy about selling nearly all of my Pokemon TCG collection to a LGS for what ammounted to nearly no money at all (hello, bulk sale rates!).

If anybody who lives nearby wants to know what I have for sale, just shoot me a PM. Non-local trades are probably out of the question for now, since I'm a bit wary of sending cards through [probably international] mail.

 

[ultron87]

I think my dumb end of standard deck for FNMs is going to be Jalira, Master Polymorphist "combo". So Bant colors with token makers, Jalira, Kiora, maybe a few other Legendary creatures and two Worldspine Wurms. With the basic plan being live to four mana, cast Jalira, next turn sac a token for a guaranteed Worldspine Wurm. Nothing could possibly go wrong! And Chord of Calling to fetch Jalira at end step.

If only there was a Rampant Growth in the format. Since it can't use Caryatid.

 

[Yeef]

I think my dumb end of standard deck for FNMs is going to be Jalira, Master Polymorphist "combo". So Bant colors with token makers, Jalira, Kiora, maybe a few other Legendary creatures and two Worldspine Wurms. With the basic plan being live to four mana, cast Jalira, next turn sac a token for a guaranteed Worldspine Wurm. Nothing could possibly go wrong! And Chord of Calling to fetch Jalira at end step.

If only there was a Rampant Growth in the format. Since it can't use Caryatid.

You can get Nissa's Expedition off on turn 3 after a Raise the Alarm. Otherwise, there's Font of Fertility.

 

[ultron87]

Oh, yeah, Font might work. Forgot about that. Though with Temples I'm not particularly optimistic about being able to crack Font on turn two. Maybe it doesn't really even need the ramp.

I guess there's two ways to go about it. It could be a midrange deck running Brimaz and Polukranos that can also kill with the Wurm or it could have the combo slotted into the basic UW control shell that can also just win with Elspeth.

 

[red13th]

However, in visiting that Kickstarter and his professional webpage I learned that he also makes super tacky ZZ Top artwork:

haha, yuck!

lol what the hell

 

["God's Beard!"]

I know I said fuck getting legacy cards but I just traded a playset of Colonnades for a Jace, the Mind Sculptor and I'm riding the crazy train now.

 

[ironmang]

You seem to be confused as to what a beta is and how it works. Beta versions are inherently buggy. Beta versions are supposed to be worse than final release products.You say there was no reason to use it...except to get used to switch to that client as the official release. That makes the last 2 years a transitional period, during which WotC added to the beta version.

I get the hate toward the client, mostly from watching streams where the thing seems to crash about every hour. What I don't get is the odd expectation that a beta program was supposed to be bug free. Now that it's the official V4, those bugs are much, much less acceptable.

You really should reread my last few replies in the topic if you think I'm confused about the concept of the beta. MTGO beta was there to work out bugs with the help of players and get the magic online team ready for the jump from V3 to V4.

I 100% never suggested that I expected the beta to be bug free. I was only replying to Angry's post about how people shouldn't be complaining about the change since they had 1.5 years to get used to it. The adjustment required to switch clients is the same whether you did it 1.5 years ago or today. If they gave actual incentive to play in the beta like a free draft and/or daily event entry every couple months then it would have encouraged players to get used to the switch.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You really should reread my last few replies in the topic if you think I'm confused about the concept of the beta. MTGO beta was there to work out bugs with the help of players and get the magic online team ready for the jump from V3 to V4.

I 100% never suggested that I expected the beta to be bug free. I was only replying to Angry's post about how people shouldn't be complaining about the change since they had 1.5 years to get used to it. The adjustment required to switch clients is the same whether you did it 1.5 years ago or today. If they gave actual incentive to play in the beta like a free draft and/or daily event entry every couple months then it would have encouraged players to get used to the switch.

Yeah, except you weren't required to play competitively on V4 before last week. You're being disingenuous and suggesting it actually takes more than a couple of hours to figure out how to use.

 

[kirblar]

If your LGS died, that probably means there's another store locally that's siphoned the players.

Also, fuck Theros block.

 

[Angry Grimace]

If your LGS died, that probably means there's another store locally that's siphoned the players.

Also, fuck Theros block.

Yeah, Magic is bigger than ever, I can't see an LGS dying off like that right now.

I went to my LGS yesterday and there was so many people in there I couldn't even look at the cards (although that's partially due to Warhammer players space demands).

 

[JulianImp]

@kirblar, Grimace: Magic is bigger than ever... unless you take into account that Argentina doesn't have that many LGS and that booster pack prices are climbing higher and higher up to the point where people no longer want to pay for prereleases and drafts. Born of the Gods and M15 prereleases were both held back a week due to customs, which moved the events into the last few weeks of the month, when players have less disposable income.

While there're some other LGS I could go to, none of them are actually that close (my current one is ten minutes away by bike, while the rest are 20 to 30 minutes away by bus). Also, my LGS mostly had newer players and casual veterans, which made for a relaxed gaming atmosphere where we could joke around and have fun with crazy decks, whereas each and every other LGS I've been to was a lot more focused on cutthroat competition.

TL;DR: I'm a johnny player who wants to build decks I like, and my current LGS used to support that. All my previous LGS were so spike-oriented I felt like I was buying cards and paying money just to get trounced every week and feel like I was doing something wrong for not netdecking. Also, MtG is doing poorly in Argentina due to the ludicrously high booster pack prices.

 

[phazedplasma]

drafting M15 tonight for the first time. What do I need to know.

 

[Angry Grimace]

drafting M15 tonight for the first time. What do I need to know.

Cone of Flame rules.

 

[Jaeyden]

@kirblar, Grimace: Magic is bigger than ever... unless you take into account that Argentina doesn't have that many LGS and that booster pack prices are climbing higher and higher up to the point where people no longer want to pay for prereleases and drafts. Born of the Gods and M15 prereleases were both held back a week due to customs, which moved the events into the last few weeks of the month, when players have less disposable income.

While there're some other LGS I could go to, none of them are actually that close (my current one is ten minutes away by bike, while the rest are 20 to 30 minutes away by bus). Also, my LGS mostly had newer players and casual veterans, which made for a relaxed gaming atmosphere where we could joke around and have fun with crazy decks, whereas each and every other LGS I've been to was a lot more focused on cutthroat competition.

TL;DR: I'm a johnny player who wants to build decks I like, and my current LGS used to support that. All my previous LGS were so spike-oriented I felt like I was buying cards and paying money just to get trounced every week and feel like I was doing something wrong for not netdecking. Also, MtG is doing poorly in Argentina due to the ludicrously high booster pack prices.

Have you considered MTGO? I'm a paper player lucky enough to have a great playgroup and a decent LGS a few minutes away but I'm often consdering ditching a lot of my paper to get more stuff online. I hardly get to play the formats I want to (Legacy and Modern) because the LGS is mostly into standard and my playgroup is 95% EDH. I had a decent collection on MTGO which I sold for a Vintage deck and I get to brew for half the price of paper and play whenever I want. I love paper and the fun with friends but online does have it's advantages.

 

[ultron87]

Cone of Flame rules.

Inferno Fist is also the nuts.

 

[JulianImp]

Have you considered MTGO? I'm a paper player lucky enough to have a great playgroup and a decent LGS a few minutes away but I'm often consdering ditching a lot of my paper to get more stuff online. I hardly get to play the formats I want to (Legacy and Modern) because the LGS is mostly into standard and my playgroup is 95% EDH. I had a decent collection on MTGO which I sold for a Vintage deck and I get to brew for half the price of paper and play whenever I want. I love paper and the fun with friends but online does have it's advantages.

Well, I'm mostly into MtG for the social interaction nowadays, so I really wouldn't get the same level of enjoyment from playing through MODO. I have an account I've used every now and then, but having to buy tickets to get cards through credit card is an issue, since I still don't have a credit card of my own.

 

[ThLunarian]

Up until about 2006ish, Charlotte only had one gaming store.

Now there are somewhere around 10. It's nuts.

 

[WanderingWind]

Meanwhile in Germany....

 

[Yeef]

drafting M15 tonight for the first time. What do I need to know.

Triplicate Spirits is the best card in the set and works better with multiples. Don't let the cost fool you, it really only costs like 3 or 4 most of the time.

Also devouring light.

If you do get the spirits; also go for the sanctified charges.

 

[kirblar]

@kirblar, Grimace: Magic is bigger than ever... unless you take into account that Argentina doesn't have that many LGS and that booster pack prices are climbing higher and higher up to the point where people no longer want to pay for prereleases and drafts. Born of the Gods and M15 prereleases were both held back a week due to customs, which moved the events into the last few weeks of the month, when players have less disposable income.

While there're some other LGS I could go to, none of them are actually that close (my current one is ten minutes away by bike, while the rest are 20 to 30 minutes away by bus). Also, my LGS mostly had newer players and casual veterans, which made for a relaxed gaming atmosphere where we could joke around and have fun with crazy decks, whereas each and every other LGS I've been to was a lot more focused on cutthroat competition.

TL;DR: I'm a johnny player who wants to build decks I like, and my current LGS used to support that. All my previous LGS were so spike-oriented I felt like I was buying cards and paying money just to get trounced every week and feel like I was doing something wrong for not netdecking. Also, MtG is doing poorly in Argentina due to the ludicrously high booster pack prices.

This is actually why MTGO being broken is so bad for so many - many Latin American players make a living off of it because of the things you mentioned.

Meanwhile in Germany....

They hate fun even more than Japan does.

 

[ElyrionX]

Went to Monday Night Magic with my esper control again. Did better this time. Went 1-2, 1-1 (won this on a coin toss) and 2-0. Feels good man.

Last guy I beat was running a GU deck and was suspicious of my claim (after our match ended) that this was only my second week of playing Standard and that I was new to the game. He didn't think that someone new would play esper control and could construct such a deck. When I said I netdecked it, he murmured, "that's possible, I guess."

Anyway, I'm getting the hang of the deck though my decision-making is still generally very slow and quite prone to costly mistakes. But I am enjoying the complexity of control immensely and feel that I have definitely made the right choice in picking this as my first deck instead of going for something simpler like an aggro deck.

 

[ultron87]

Congrats! FYI flipping coins to decide draws is super bad and you shouldn't do it because it can get you disqualified.

 

[ElyrionX]

Congrats! FYI flipping coins to decide draws is super bad and you shouldn't do it because it can get you disqualified.

Thanks! We were halfway through our third game when time ran out so I asked my opponent what we should do so he said sometimes people would flip for it and I agreed.

Apparently, control decks take a longer time to play and control players, after winning the first game, would sometimes drag out a second game till time expires after to ensure the victory. How prevalent is this? Not sure what to make of this yet.

 

[Hero]

Thanks! We were halfway through our third game when time ran out so I asked my opponent what we should do so he said sometimes people would flip for it and I agreed.

Apparently, control decks take a longer time to play and control players, after winning the first game, would sometimes drag out a second game till time expires after to ensure the victory. How prevalent is this? Not sure what to make of this yet.

Yeah I would definitely suggest to not ever try to decide the outcome of a match with something like flipping a coin or rock/paper/scissors. It can get you (both) a match loss or disqualification at the least.

 

[keeblerdrow]

UWx control is probably the worst deck to use to get into FNM level play, just because it plays so so slowly. You need to be super proficient at the deck and at general Magic playing just to not get to time in round every single round. It's the reason I'm not bringing Bant Superfriends to my local tourney this weekend. I'm a new player and I like to actually get a W or L every round if I can help it. For your next deck, I highly recommend you look into a mid-range or tempo deck. The advantage there is you get your round over before time and can possible go and look at other decks functioning and playing in the rest of the round. When I started playing, I would tend toward aggro just because my round would be over quickly win or lose and I could go around getting ideas for my next deck.

The upside of playing UWx, though, is that you are learning higher levels of interactivity while playing your deck. I built mine specifically to get a highly interactive deck into my hands to learn more about the stack and about priority and phases to further my play with other archetypes. But it has some serious downsides as a first-deck.

You should ask around and see if you can play some side games with people using their decks, just to get some time in with other format staples or even some of the fun rogue decks.

 

[ultron87]

Thanks! We were halfway through our third game when time ran out so I asked my opponent what we should do so he said sometimes people would flip for it and I agreed.

If your game goes to time you should just complete the five extra turns and if no one has won by the end report it as a draw. Or someone can concede, but just not through the result of any random method like a coin flip or promise of reward. Never ever say anything like "I'll give you a pack if you concede", as that is bribery.

Apparently, control decks take a longer time to play and control players, after winning the first game, would sometimes drag out a second game till time expires after to ensure the victory. How prevalent is this? Not sure what to make of this yet.

Control decks often do run into the problem where completing all three games is tough, especially in mirror matches. If you win the first game and the second game ends in a draw you do indeed win the match. There are ways to take advantage of this. Some are bad, some are fine.

If you win the first game and then in the second game start hemming and hawing over every move you make and start taking a really long time to make plays and take a really long time sideboarding that is stalling and cheating. So don't do that. Instead, you can continue to make plays at a reasonable pace but happen to make ones that extend the game longer instead of moving it towards a conclusion. That is fine from a rules perspective, but might not actually be advisable because if you manage not to win you've almost guaranteed a draw instead of having a chance to win game 3. And if you're in a position that you can force the game to a draw you often have a pretty good chance to just win it, which is better for your tiebreakers. Also it isn't particularly sporting, in my opinion, but hey sometimes you do what you gotta.

If you ever feel like your opponent is actively stalling you can call a judge and they'll give the player a little nudge to play faster.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The real fun is aggro decks, so long as said aggro deck isn't burn. Fuck burn, and fuck the unwashed, hairy-palmed troglodytes that play burn.

 

[Haly]

Hearthstone players taught me aggro takes no skill.

I would never play such a braindead archetype.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Hearthstone players taught me aggro takes no skill.

I would never play such a braindead archetype.

That's not necessarily true unless its a burn deck, in which case you're probably the type of person who doesn't like making decisions.

 

[Firemind]

I was about to complain that I played four 8-4 holiday cube finals and lost all of them, some through sheer stupidity, others by bad luck, but then I joined a 3xMMA queue and opened a goyf, so can't complain.

Picked up a Kiki-Jiki p1p1 and saw ONE Pestermite the whole draft. Not that it mattered as I got manascrewed and Thunderclouded in the first round. MMA is such a sweet format.

Spoiler

Not.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I was about to complain that I played four 8-4 holiday cube finals and lost all of them, some through sheer stupidity, others by bad luck, but then I joined a 3xMMA queue and opened a goyf, so can't complain.

Picked up a Kiki-Jiki p1p1 and saw ONE Pestermite the whole draft. Not that it mattered as I got manascrewed and Thunderclouded in the first round. MMA is such a sweet format.

Spoiler

Not.

There's a reason why single-elimination 8-man draft pods don't make any sense. I've said it before, but the most "fair" tournament structure (which doesn't exist on MODO) is 6-2-2-2 Swiss. You still get a sweet prize for going 3-0, and you get a reward for going 2-1 regardless of which way you get there. 8-4s only make sense when higher-level players get to feed on lower-level players who are enticed by the dreams of "going infinite." Among players of equal skill level, the fact that only one of the 2-1 players get a prize is absurd.

 

[Firemind]

Well, actually the prize structure is 3x MMA packs for the winner and 1x MMA pack for the loser in the final; three times more than second place, more if you count phantom points. Which is the reason I got more pissed than usual. I don't even care about QPs.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Speaking of aggro and hard gameplay decisions, I took Bogles to a modern tournament today. I wanted something other than control and Reddit hates my Conscription deck that I went 3-1 with last time.

Went 2-2 lol. Deck just seemed like feast or famine with the draws. The games I won were complete blowouts, and the games I lost I didn't draw enough enchantments or got stuck on 1 land with coronet in my hand.

Also, I could not get leyline of sanctity out to save my life.

 

[kirblar]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";122098093]Speaking of aggro and hard gameplay decisions, I took Bogles to a modern tournament today. I wanted something other than control and Reddit hates my Conscription deck that I went 3-1 with last time.

Went 2-2 lol. Deck just seemed like feast or famine with the draws. The games I won were complete blowouts, and the games I lost I didn't draw enough enchantments or got stuck on 1 land with coronet in my hand.

Also, I could not get leyline of sanctity out to save my life.[/QUOTE]
One of my friends almost won a PTQ with it despite not having played Magic in over a year. (He's a good player, but still.) It's very much a Belcher-type deck.

 

[Kacar]

Drafted m15 twice tonight. Won my first draft with a sweet red/blue artifact deck. It seems to me to be the best archetype since my win got me into a free draft which I promplty got stomped on by something similar to the last deck I had.

I also feel like green is just kinda bad this set, I dunno it seems like the middle 2-5 cms slot doesnt really offer anything super exciting, but they do probably have the best bomb rares so.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think Memory Jar is like the first okay in limited VMA mythic I've gotten.

 

["God's Beard!"]

One of my friends almost won a PTQ with it despite not having played Magic in over a year. (He's a good player, but still.) It's very much a Belcher-type deck.

This one?

That's the list I ran lol

After getting some experience there's a couple changes I'd make but I liked the list more than the other hexproof decks.

 

[kirblar]

This one?[/URL]

That's the list I ran lol

After getting some experience there's a couple changes I'd make but I liked the list more than the other hexproof decks.

Nah, lol, this one was a year and a half ago in MD.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I never even got to cast my Memory Jar =/

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I loved that Reid Duke had the stones to bring that deck to the World Championships last year. It was a perfect metagame choice, albeit a very risky one - he literally mulliganed away the title of World Champion.

 

[f0rk]

Have you considered MTGO? I'm a paper player lucky enough to have a great playgroup and a decent LGS a few minutes away but I'm often consdering ditching a lot of my paper to get more stuff online. I hardly get to play the formats I want to (Legacy and Modern) because the LGS is mostly into standard and my playgroup is 95% EDH. I had a decent collection on MTGO which I sold for a Vintage deck and I get to brew for half the price of paper and play whenever I want. I love paper and the fun with friends but online does have it's advantages.

Have you heard about the Modern event in Leeds on August 2nd?