Finished reading Jesse's set reviews, very insightful. I agree with so much of it that I was impressed. The one thing that he said and that I agree the most with though is how basically everything related to the history of Magic R&D is told by MaRo, who, considering the type of person he is, isn't that great of a source. I wish more people involved with the design and development of old sets wrote about how things were.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I thought I agreed with pretty much all of Jesse's reviews of immedietly after reading them but the more I reflect on them the more misalignments I find. What I think I was feeling was that he has an utterly valid and articulate perspective on things, which is just as valuable.
Because its not just Magic history. Jesse is one of the only other long form writers besides, well, Rosewater who's work has seemed really interested in looking at Magic holistically
Because its not just Magic history. Jesse is one of the only other long form writers besides, well, Rosewater who's work has seemed really interested in looking at Magic holistically
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Its not like they reprint staples that aren't on the list much anyways. Force of Will still ~$80 because they reprinted it exactly once, as a Judge foil that only small percentages of judges actually got.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why would you play more than one? The point is to reduce legacy deck costs by reducing the necessary number of each dual by exactly one, not replacing them. This way you get more players and the collectors cant get too pissed.
This needs to happen, especially since the color identity can be in the card as well as the casting cost. I had made up a few examples but my favorite one was:
Doesn't disturb the color pie nearly as much as a straight 4 color creature and easy to do. Also a cool card to flash in and destroy something
shrapnelmagnet
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149558687]What's the difference between a deck that plays one volcanic island like UW Miracles and a deck that plays one Legendary Volcanic Island?
[/QUOTE]
I mostly want the weird cards that are on the Reserved List... Like, Spinal Villain ($11) or Gravity Sphere ($11) or Acid Rain ($14). They reprint these type of things in the MTGO Masters Edition or Vintage Masters - I'd love a Legacy Masters paper thing.
Beyond that, most of the cards on that list are just bad and it doesn't seem necessary to call them out as unprintable because reasons.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ia/261.jpg
($0.30)
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I mostly want the weird cards that are on the Reserved List... Like, Spinal Villain ($11) or Gravity Sphere ($11) or Acid Rain ($14). They reprint these type of things in the MTGO Masters Edition or Vintage Masters - I'd love a Legacy Masters paper thing.
Beyond that, most of the cards on that list are just bad and it doesn't seem necessary to call them out as unprintable because reasons.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ia/261.jpg
($0.30)
"God's Beard!"
Member
Anybody else going to gp san jose?
Oh, I just realized it's in Wizard's best interest that Legacy's barrier of entry remains high, because Standard is their product mover and audience grabber so they want people to stay in Standard as much as possible. The only people (that matter to them) harmed by the removal of the Restricted List is themselves.
Legacy will always be a smaller format than Standard just due to the nature of the esoteric and obscure card interactions often found and even if the Duals were 50+% cheaper there are still a number of older cards that need to be acquired that are free to be reprinted or have even been recently reprinted. Either directly or indirectly, more people playing any Magic format is more money in WOTCs pocket. I find it hard to imagine there is a significant contingent of people who want to play Legacy and not Standard but since they can't afford Legacy deck adopt Standard rather than play Modern, any other format or just not play Magic.
SigmasonicX
Member
I highly doubt the conspiracy to keep the Reserved List active is motivated by a desire on Wizards' part not to have Legacy be active.
keeblerdrow
Member
I like Legacy fine enough. Never actually played it before because of the barrier to entry. I'm super un-excited about the Open being streamed this weekend being Legacy. Right now, Standard is more interesting than a format that will be "shaken" by a banning, an unbanning, and possible-maybe-Idunno Tasigur. The last Legacy 20k they streamed was about 100% longer than I have any tolerance for. I liked it when they were the 2nd show on Sunday and I still got my Standard stream in for the weekend. A weekend without Standard drama right now is frustrating.
And don't say watch the WotC streams. They are poorly produced and if I have to hear Marshall Sutcliffe guffaw and fake amazement at someone's turn 1 Elvish Mystic again, I'll eat my hat.
And don't say watch the WotC streams. They are poorly produced and if I have to hear Marshall Sutcliffe guffaw and fake amazement at someone's turn 1 Elvish Mystic again, I'll eat my hat.
SigmasonicX
Member
I thought something interesting to do would be to consider how some blocks would be handled if they were only two sets, large-small, like the upcoming blocks, instead of three sets. For some bounds, perhaps assume that only cards that already exist in the three sets can be used to make up the two sets.
For example, for Innistrad block, you'd leave Innistrad more or less the same, but combine Dark Ascension with Avacyn Restored.
Darkness is Ascending but Avacyn is also Restored
Combine the storyline of the two sets. Avacyn is released, but the demons are too, so both darkness and light get a power boost.
Returning Mechanics
Transform
Flashback
Curse (Wikipedia lists it as a mechanic, so *shrug*)
Morbid is dropped for room. The only real loss is Tragic Slip.
New Mechanics
Undying - Monsters getting stronger.
Soulbond - Better showcase of the light side banding together than Fateful Hour.
Miracle - Only appears on 4-8 cards
Of course, this sort of thought process doesn't work well for some blocks without completely changing what they're about, such as the current block.
For example, for Innistrad block, you'd leave Innistrad more or less the same, but combine Dark Ascension with Avacyn Restored.
Darkness is Ascending but Avacyn is also Restored
Combine the storyline of the two sets. Avacyn is released, but the demons are too, so both darkness and light get a power boost.
Returning Mechanics
Transform
Flashback
Curse (Wikipedia lists it as a mechanic, so *shrug*)
Morbid is dropped for room. The only real loss is Tragic Slip.
New Mechanics
Undying - Monsters getting stronger.
Soulbond - Better showcase of the light side banding together than Fateful Hour.
Miracle - Only appears on 4-8 cards
Of course, this sort of thought process doesn't work well for some blocks without completely changing what they're about, such as the current block.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
They stay worried about a crash like the market - hell, the world - is as it was back in the late 90s. At some point they have to get serious about addressing the cost of the game, because if anything is going to drive away players, it'll be that. Legacy cards are to the point where even when a player stops playing, they'll just hoard the cards instead of introducing them back into the pool by sell off. The same is starting to happen with modern. Prices continue to rocket and a non-reserve, french vanilla creature is going for 200 bucks a pop.
Limited print MMA2 at $10 a pack
"God's Beard!"
Member
Nobody else going to gp san jose?
Modern, assuming that they print enough MM2 and future expansions that people can buy a reasonable amount, is fine. They have shown they are willing to reprint money cards in standard legal sets (Shocklands, Fetchlands, Thoughtsieze, Mutavault, Chord of Calling, ect), and are reprinting cards for the format in forms normal people can obtain (ie, not Judge/FTV printings).
The cost of standard has risen dramatically over the past 10 years- There used to be tier 1 decks that had -zero- rares in them (U/G Madness post IPA block), cards used to never get over 20-25 dollars in their standard lifespan, and there were fewer expansions a tournament player would need to care about each year (core sets used to be only reprints). And seeing how Magic has grown over the 10 years since then, I don't think the rising cost of Standard has really hurt the game. We are only a few years removed from having a $100 card in the format, for gods sake!
I think they're going to be quite careful about ever printing another $100 card in standard again.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I think I'm on to something.
Gruul Control
Creatures(30):
Spells(7)
Land(23):
Sideboard(15):
Gruul Control
Creatures(30):
- 4 Elvish Mystic
- 4 Sylvan Caryatid
- 4 Courser of Kruphix
- 4 Frontier Siege
- 4 Ashcloud Phoenix
- 4 Whisperwood Elemental
- 3 Bearer of the Heavens
- 3 Hornet Queen
Spells(7)
- 4 Life's Legacy
- 3 See the Unwritten
Land(23):
- 7 Forest
- 4 Mountain
- 3 Rugged Highlands
- 4 Temple of Abandon
- 4 Wooded Foothills
- 1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Sideboard(15):
- 4 Xenagos, the Reveler
- 4 Nissa Worldwaker
- 4 Circle of Flame
- 3 Hornet Nest
SigmasonicX
Member
Unless you mean reprint, then I'm not really sure how they can prevent that, except by never printing cards in rare that are capable of being put into winning decks as 4-ofs.
Yeah, Jace getting so high was a perfect storm of bad things- A small set that was only drafted for 3 months, a set without many other money rares, and it being the best card printed since 1993 all combined to make that card 100 dollars.
I could see them printing some of the really expensive modern cards into standard, though. I see no reason that Dark Confidant would be unsafe to reprint into some environments, for example.
At least we know when Standard will rotate.
Modern is a money pit at this point. If it wasn't a PT format, people would have long abandoned it like Extended. Fuck knows which next card will get banned. Shit, they have to ban cards to keep it from regressing to being Super Standard where the same decks keep winning.
I'm considering selling off my Scalding Tarns at this point. Zendikar 2 announcement when?
Modern is a money pit at this point. If it wasn't a PT format, people would have long abandoned it like Extended. Fuck knows which next card will get banned. Shit, they have to ban cards to keep it from regressing to being Super Standard where the same decks keep winning.
I'm considering selling off my Scalding Tarns at this point. Zendikar 2 announcement when?
I really hope that Wizards is a little bit more liberal with their reprints going forward, because if they really want the eternal formats to survive and be diverse, they have to keep these cards in circulation. I cannot afford to keep up with Standard and Modern to the same level, so I focus on Modern. Having a price of $200 on Tarmogoyf for anyone wanting to play green competetively can't be healthy, not to mention $60-80 for Liliana, Heirarch or Confidant. The second hand market will survive regardless, so Wizards shouldn't be beholden to them regarding reprints.
Zendikar fetches will likely be in Dragons of Tarkir, MM 2015 or the next block, so selling now is the time while they are still high value.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Wait Goyf is at $200 now? What in the ever loving fuck?
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm so excited for FRF drafts. I got so tired of everybody playing colorless Gray Ogres on turn 3 every game. Hopefully I can find some time to do some drafts next week(end).
Wait for Tasigur to start replacing him and his price will go down.
Seriously guys. Play Grixis Twin with Tasigur in Modern. I'm pretty sure that's a very real thing.
Wait for Tasigur to start replacing him and his price will go down.
Seriously guys. Play Grixis Twin with Tasigur in Modern. I'm pretty sure that's a very real thing.
I'm starting to think that even the people who thought Tasigur was very good were underrating him. And I thought he was just above average. :/
Well, not slapping free Brainstorms onto cards at the last minute then failing to test them is a start.
Print runs are bigger now. They seem much more aware of what cards should be mythic vs rare as well. Also they aren't afraid to throw bigger cards in supplimental products like Clash Packs and Duel Decks.
Considering it. Not sure if finding the room for discard is worth it though, more excited for murderous cut.
Still want to try a BUG list as well but I'm missing a lot of cards
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Wait for Tasigur to start replacing him and his price will go down.
Seriously guys. Play Grixis Twin with Tasigur in Modern. I'm pretty sure that's a very real thing.
Got a list I can look at? I've been looking for a Modern deck to build lately
All of those cards you mentioned are pretty narrow- Liliana and Confidant sees almost no play outside of Jund, and now that Pod is dead, the only deck that really wants Noble is Infect. Tarmogoyf is a more ubiquitous card, but it's also the only one of those cards you mentioned that sees heavy Legacy play, which also inflates it's price.
The reprint sets have done a good job keeping the value of non-rares down to reasonable prices. Had Kitchen Finks not been in MM1, it probably would have been a 30 dollar card before the pod ban (it was already creeping towards 20 before the reprint). Path would be over 10 dollars now if WOTC wasn't reprinting it in seemingly every special release
"God's Beard!"
Member
SCG is a pretty poor way of determining card values.
Heirarch is in quite a few zoo lists as of late, which seems to be a decent deck type moving forward, or at least something I want to play.
divisionbyzorro
Member
So I don't own any Modern cards anymore. This is just me extrapolating from successful
In order to get delve going, you need cantrips. I don't know if the payoff is high enough to justify something as low impact as Thought Scour (previous versions with Dig Through Time happily did that), but you definitely need the Serum Visions, Remands, and a pile of fetchlands. Probably 1-2 Tec Edges, or Ghost Quarter if you really want to get cute (Quarter is an interesting way to attack Tron, which is probably a matchup that gets worse the further away from pure combo you get).
From there I would draw inspiration from successful RUg Twin decks. I don't think the lists look all that much different - it's just that the upside of Tasigur is so much higher than the upside of Goyf.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
That 100 dollar card broke standard to the point where they banned it. Some part of it was that the deck was oppressive, but another part of that was you needed 400 dollars just for 4 cards, in standard, to be the most competitive it could be. The market spoke, attendance dropped and WotC banned it.
And we're assuming quite a lot about MM2. Yes, they're printing more of it, but they've also increased the base price substantially. If they don't print enough that shop keepers can keep it around, the real price point will be even higher. This could lead to the same result of MM1, which was that the prices didn't change all that much. Goyf, for instance, is more expensive now. As the joke goes, "you know what goes good with the Gofy you opened at MM? Three more Goys."
I hope the prices lower on the back of MM2. I am all about affordable Magic cards.
Yeah its not really different to RUG, I think you have to play thought scour for cut to be good though. Also enables turn 2 Tasigur.
What was the MSRP on packs of MM originally? I hope that the higher MSRP indicates the overall power level of the set. And speaking of standard, I was about to build a version of UB Heroic just because it is cheaper than most other current decks out there, and seems well positioned in the current meta.
I was pretty unhappy when my local dealer confided in me that "there is no way I sell those packs at $10 each."
$6.99. It sold for MSRP at a few places for maybe a week or two from what I could tell. Went up to $10-$12 a pack pretty fast.
That basically says to me as a consumer "buy it online instead of giving me money" . Ridiculous.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm a real weirdo. You know what I want from Modern Masters 2? More rarity downgrades for my Peasant Cube. I have this dream where they print Mystic Snake and Shadowmage Infiltrator at uncommon; plus, you'd get them in a modern frame too!
Hell, if you remove the lands (which you can do but WILL make the deck less consistant), The average U/W Heroic deck is 4 Heros (4 dollars on SCG) and a bunch of draft droppings.
I have Strands, and temples are cheap, so not that much more to build the average list.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They banned it like way too late though.
Yup. It cost them a lot and almost certainly cost Mike Turian his dev spot.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Reading Kingcobweb's Alara review and it just makes me smile when players actually acknowledge the truth about a fundamentally broken part of MTG: "One of the shitty parts of Magic is that a certain percentage of games just aren’t games because of land issues. We’ve all heard the annoying guy complaining about it to no one in particular about how he just can’t get any lands, but there is some truth there. Something like one out of four games, one player or the other doesn’t draw the lands to play their spells, so they lose." Most players hate admitting this to the point they'll argue you can deckbuild out of it. You actually can't. It happens no matter what you put in your deck.
Another thing I like is how he brings up some of the issues that I have with Khans - the only really interesting deck in Standard are Whip decks. U/B Control is an incredibly boring iteration of draw-go control (I'd argue more boring than Sphinx's Rev), Abzan decks are just goodstuff piles and Tokens is built around a stupidly broken card like Jeskai Ascendancy.
Another thing I like is how he brings up some of the issues that I have with Khans - the only really interesting deck in Standard are Whip decks. U/B Control is an incredibly boring iteration of draw-go control (I'd argue more boring than Sphinx's Rev), Abzan decks are just goodstuff piles and Tokens is built around a stupidly broken card like Jeskai Ascendancy.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'd argue that it's not a "broken" mechanic, and saying that 25% of Magic games aren't real games is absurd, but yes - Magic's one weakness is that it has enough non-games to be bothersome at times.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Only strengthens my point that rising costs in standard have hurt the game in spots. It needed banning earlier. I am a adult with a job and disposable income, as I imagine most of you guys are (judging by the decks you play). But there is a breaking point for affordable costs and standard has hit that.
Then again, we're in a standard format where the most expensive card (last I checked) was a card that is played in all formats. Once again, the standard environment right now is basically perfect.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I imagine 25% of games DO involve land problems. Whatever Maro tells you is the party line. Its not a "feature" of the game.
Not sure which mechanic you're referring to: Jeskai Ascendancy? The card is bullshit. It does too many things to be a persistent 3 mana enchantment and it does way more than all the other ones do.
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