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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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S

SigmasonicX

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I imagine 25% of games DO involve land problems. Whatever Maro tells you is the party line. Its not a "feature" of the game.
Click to expand...

But he also helped create Duel Masters, which does not have land problems and he claims that this led to less-interesting games, and people here say part of the problem with Hearthstone is that its mana system leads to less-interesting games.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I imagine 25% of games DO involve land problems. Whatever Maro tells you is the party line. Its not a "feature" of the game.

Not sure which mechanic you're referring to: Jeskai Ascendancy? The card is bullshit. It does too many things to be a persistent 3 mana enchantment and it does way more than all the other ones do.
Click to expand...

I'm just talking about mechanics in a broader sense - the land system is a mechanic of Magic, and you referred to it as broken. I don't think it is.

And there's a huge difference between saying that 25% of games have some mana issues and 25% of games aren't "real" games (which I'll take to mean competitive games). Part of the game is playing through mana issues - it is what it is. You either accept it and learn to play with it or go play Hearthstone.
 
S

Socat

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
I'm just talking about mechanics in a broader sense - the land system is a mechanic of Magic, and you referred to it as broken. I don't think it is.

And there's a huge difference between saying that 25% of games have some mana issues and 25% of games aren't "real" games (which I'll take to mean competitive games). Part of the game is playing through mana issues - it is what it is. You either accept it and learn to play with it or go play Hearthstone.
Click to expand...

And properly built and tested decks shouldn't have mana issues in a vast majority of games.
 
K

keeblerdrow

Member
Okay, I have shakey confidence in this deck, but I think it's only because I haven't had enough reps with it yet and the testing night that I went to on Tuesday was filled with netdecks of UB Control and Sultai Control (one guy was so netdecking that he'd never played with Kiora before and didn't know her -1 also let you play an extra land that turn). So I've only ever tested this deck against control, which was about a 50% win rate and mostly on the back of either a fast start or looooong game with Torrent Elemental.


4x Satyr Wayfinder
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3x Torrent Elemental
3x Hornet Queen
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
3x Murderous Cut
3x Dig Through Time
2x Sultai Charm
2x Whip of Erebos
2x Frontier Siege
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
LANDS

3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3x Disdainful Stroke
3x Crux of Fate
2x Drown in Sorrow
2x Bile Blight
2x Thoughtseize

Self mill with wayfinder, sidisi, and tasigur. Benefits of stuff in the yard are whip, cut, dig, and tasigur. Benefit from exile is torrent elemental. The board, from what I whipped together, transforms into a more controlling long game.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Socat said:
And properly built and tested decks shouldn't have mana issues in a vast majority of games.
Click to expand...

This is one of those things people say that doesn't make any sense because its trying to sidestep a flaw in the game. You can't "build" a deck to draw enough land; topdecking is not a skill.

divisionbyzorro said:
I'm just talking about mechanics in a broader sense - the land system is a mechanic of Magic, and you referred to it as broken. I don't think it is.

And there's a huge difference between saying that 25% of games have some mana issues and 25% of games aren't "real" games (which I'll take to mean competitive games). Part of the game is playing through mana issues - it is what it is. You either accept it and learn to play with it or go play Hearthstone.
Click to expand...

Again, I like Magic. That doesn't mean Magic doesn't have its issues; the most prominent of these issues is that your opening hand dictates the outcome of the game goes far too often, which again, comes around to the mulligan rule. Its too harsh to lose cards out of your hand.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I imagine 25% of games DO involve land problems. Whatever Maro tells you is the party line. Its not a "feature" of the game.

Not sure which mechanic you're referring to: Jeskai Ascendancy? The card is bullshit. It does too many things to be a persistent 3 mana enchantment and it does way more than all the other ones do.
Click to expand...

I'd imagine it's only a matter of time before the card is banned in Modern. Legacy, too, if someone breaks it hard enough.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Socat said:
And properly built and tested decks shouldn't have mana issues in a vast majority of games.
Click to expand...

Some people are saying it's unacceptable that a fraction of games are literally unplayable because you couldn't get access to your basic resource, and that as a "mechanic", it's broken.

Or not, because MaRo thinks variance is worthwhile, or is retroactively justifying the variance inherent in traditional card games.

And Hearthstone seems to agree, which is why their RNG is literally a feature as outlined by the developers.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Haly said:
Some people are saying it's unacceptable that a fraction of games are literally unplayable because you couldn't get access to your basic resource, and that as a "mechanic", it's broken.

Or not, because MaRo thinks variance is worthwhile, or is retroactively justifying the variance inherent in traditional card games.

And Hearthstone seems to agree, which is why their RNG is literally a feature as outlined by the developers.
Click to expand...
If you've played VS system, you'll understand why the HS designers are very worried about monotony.
 
S

Socat

Member
OnPoint said:
I'd imagine it's only a matter of time before the card is banned in Modern. Legacy, too, if someone breaks it hard enough.
Click to expand...

I don't think Ascendancy is in any danger of breaking Modern now that cruise is gone , and most of the meta will be B/G/x . Yes there will still be some decks that use it, but enchantment removal is easy to come by in Modern. It's very good in some decks built to abuse it, but still eats Abrupt Decays, Destructive Revelry, Wear/Tear, etc.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
divisionbyzorro said:
They're gambling pretty hard that banning Cruise and Dig was enough to push the deck down. It'll be fun to watch the PT.
Click to expand...

I'm very concerned the PT is going to be a bunch of Goyf-Confidant-Liliana decks, e.g. $$$$.dec. I find it highly unlikely they'd ban any of those even if they really were oppressive, but the barrier for entry is simply too high with those cards as the staple cards.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I'm very concerned the PT is going to be a bunch of Goyf-Confidant-Liliana decks, e.g. $$$$.dec. I find it highly unlikely they'd ban any of those even if they really were oppressive, but the barrier for entry is simply too high with those cards as the staple cards.
Click to expand...

That is the most obvious place to start, but there are plenty of other viable choices.

I'm actually somewhat disappointed that BBE didn't get unbanned. Maybe I'm being silly and the Rock decks would play both white and red (although it's not free without DRS), but I would like to see some variety in that shell. I think you're pretty clearly supposed to play Abzan Rock over any other Rock deck. I'm also pretty sure you're supposed to play Tasigur over Goyf in basically every Goyf deck other than Zoo. To shore up the early game, I think you're also supposed to play Lingering Souls in that deck, which is bad news for Affinity.
 
S

Socat

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
That is the most obvious place to start, but there are plenty of other viable choices.

I'm actually somewhat disappointed that BBE didn't get unbanned. Maybe I'm being silly and the Rock decks would play both white and red (although it's not free without DRS), but I would like to see some variety in that shell. I think you're pretty clearly supposed to play Abzan Rock over any other Rock deck. I'm also pretty sure you're supposed to play Tasigur over Goyf in basically every Goyf deck other than Zoo. To shore up the early game, I think you're also supposed to play Lingering Souls in that deck, which is bad news for Affinity.
Click to expand...

BBE getting unbanned would have been the tits, but zoo would have gotten crazy good. I will probably be playing some variation of zoo or twin for the forseeable future, so I am tentatively excited for what happens in the meta.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Socat said:
BBE getting unbanned would have been the tits, but zoo would have gotten crazy good. I will probably be playing some variation of zoo or twin for the forseeable future, so I am tentatively excited for what happens in the meta.
Click to expand...

That's fair. Banning Pod was huge for Wild Nacatl, so maybe letting him play with BBE would have been too good.

Also, I just realized how completely impenetrable this conversation is for new players. :/
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Socat said:
aka Rock/Jund/Junk, too many nicknames for a boring deck archetype as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure "ROCK" is just shorthand for "BG" and that style of Goyf, Lili, grind you out, kill your stuff deck.

Adding the other colors make it the other names. But yes, they do all mostly play the same because they have that ROCK foundation.
 
S

Socat

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
That's fair. Banning Pod was huge for Wild Nacatl, so maybe letting him play with BBE would have been too good.

Also, I just realized how completely impenetrable this conversation is for new players. :/
Click to expand...

Yea, that is true, but since I don't and won't play Standard unless I pull the trigger on this cart full of UW Heroic nonsense, I don't have much else to talk about.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
There's no point hoping it'll get fixed because Wizards bans everything that decreases variance. Cantrips, card draw, tutors, all banned. But things like blood moon and rest in peace that shut down decks completely and ruin player experience are totally fine.

They couldn't even find it in their hearts to reprint Serum Visions in Theros block.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149701817]There's no point hoping it'll get fixed because Wizards bans everything that decreases variance. Cantrips, card draw, tutors, all banned. But things like blood moon and rest in peace that shut down decks completely and ruin player experience are totally fine.

They couldn't even find it in their hearts to reprint Serum Visions in Theros block.[/QUOTE]

Wizards has weird priorities sometimes.

Its almost funny to me that Modern still sometimes has access to the kind of asshole hate-cards that they rarely print these days, e.g. Choke, Blood Moon.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149701817]They couldn't even find it in their hearts to reprint Serum Visions in Theros block.[/QUOTE]

But Serum was a Mirrodin plot device! It wouldn't make sense to be on Theros!

That was a stupid reason, and they had to know it.

Also, it'll almost certainly be in MM2 with Inquisition of Kozilek - or at least it should be.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149701817]There's no point hoping it'll get fixed because Wizards bans everything that decreases variance. Cantrips, card draw, tutors, all banned. But things like blood moon and rest in peace that shut down decks completely and ruin player experience are totally fine.

They couldn't even find it in their hearts to reprint Serum Visions in Theros block.[/QUOTE]

They did the same thing with Noble Hierarch in M13 when they tied Exalted to black and white only. What a stupid thing to do.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Given historic patterns, a functional reprint of Serum Visions that more closely fits Theros flavor was more likely than a Serum Visions reprint. You KNOW some players would have taken them to task for using "Serum" on Theros. Of course the problem then becomes if WOTC is ok with decks playing 8 copies of Visions in their Modern decks.
 
B

bigkrev

Member
The correct answer is to actually have just reprinted Preordain in Theros- it's a much cleaner card function wise, it fits the theme just fine, and it doesn't add a new card to Modern.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
bigkrev said:
The correct answer is to actually have just reprinted Preordain in Theros- it's a much cleaner card function wise, it fits the theme just fine, and it doesn't add a new card to Modern.
Click to expand...

I doubt they'd ever consider printing a card that's already banned in Modern.
 
F

f0rk

Member
bigkrev said:
The correct answer is to actually have just reprinted Preordain in Theros- it's a much cleaner card function wise, it fits the theme just fine, and it doesn't add a new card to Modern.
Click to expand...

I don't think reprinting an already banned Modern card to make it legal in Standard is very good practice, it would be confusing for some people. I had someone try to Memory Lapse me because it was in a duel deck or something and that's much more obvious.
 
B

blindrocket

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149701817]There's no point hoping it'll get fixed because Wizards bans everything that decreases variance. Cantrips, card draw, tutors, all banned. But things like blood moon and rest in peace that shut down decks completely and ruin player experience are totally fine.

They couldn't even find it in their hearts to reprint Serum Visions in Theros block.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that peeved me off too.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
It's always funny looking at old card anlyses:

Shardless Agent
I wish these decks were modern playable because this guy probably isn't going to make it into legacy. Its in a bad color combo (U/G has ABSURDLY good spells already) and isn't likely to do anything unless a hypergenesis deck becomes viable because of him.
Click to expand...

Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top should be allowed to fade in the folder. I think that, somewhere in Magic's R&D dept, a sweepstake is running entitled, "How many people will play this pile of manure?" Unfortunately I also think the employee that picked the largest number will win the prize. The only time this little top should be allowed to go round and round is in a draft. And please, don't think of putting it in a limited deck. Not unless you're going to play against me anyway.
Click to expand...
Note it's all MTGS.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'd rather play an opponent with 15 islands in play and a seven card hand of mana drain, mana drain, mana drain, counterspell, counterspell, counterspell, counterspell than an opponent with Divining Top in play. Fuck that card.
 
R

red13th

Member
btw kinda random but even though I'm a Wayne Reynolds fan I hate Hinder's art, I hope it's reprinted in MMA2 and they give it new art.
really want a new Chrome Mox too (STUPID Mirrodin artifact frame!) but it's banned, I hate the Modern ban list. I need a Jace!

EDIT: oh and a non-foil FNM Evolving Wilds too.
 
C

Crocodile

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I'd rather play an opponent with 15 islands in play and a seven card hand of mana drain, mana drain, mana drain, counterspell, counterspell, counterspell, counterspell than an opponent with Divining Top in play. Fuck that card.
Click to expand...

Well sure, in the first example I can play a Pearl Lake Ancient, or similar card, and get a free win :p

Haly said:
It's always funny looking at old card analyses:

Shardless Agent


Sensei's Divining Top

Note it's all MTGS.
Click to expand...

Random nobodies on the internet are wrong, news at 11 :p

To be fair to the Top critique, Counterbalance and Miracles didn't exist yet and I'm not sure the fetchland interaction is worth it all by itself in most constructed formats :p
 
L

Lucario

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149781275]I'm telling you guys, there's a way to break Temur Battle Rage. I can feel it.[/QUOTE]

People at my LGS were saying this too, one of them is bringing their brew to FNM tonight. I'm skeptical.
 
K

keeblerdrow

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149783150]Double-strike trample for two mana is insane. I'm testing it in my soulflayer hexproof deck alongside become immense but there's probably an even better choice.[/QUOTE]

What if it doesn't kill instantly? Shaman of the Great Hunt active gets you two +1/+1 counters on whatever you cast it on. Good in a GR deck. I have one built that could abuse the hell out of TBR.

Hero's Blade deck? 2 strikes from Daxos of Meletis with a blade equipped. You get 2 exiled cards and the lifegain triggers. Have Shu Yun in the deck and two people instead of one will be getting double strike for 2 more mana. Anax and Cymede get trample and so does everyone else when you target them.

A bad deck, observe:
4x Daxos of Meletis
3x Anax and Cymede
3x Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
4x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2x Ojutai, Soul of Winter
2x Medomai, the Ageless
2x Citadel Siege
4x Hero's Blade
2x Heros' Podium
4x Lightning Strike
4x Valorous Stance
4x Gods' Willing
4x Temur Battle Rage
LANDS

Then cut stuff you don't like.
 
L

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
keeblerdrow said:
What if it doesn't kill instantly? Shaman of the Great Hunt active gets you two +1/+1 counters on whatever you cast it on. Good in a GR deck. I have one built that could abuse the hell out of TBR.

Hero's Blade deck? 2 strikes from Daxos of Meletis with a blade equipped. You get 2 exiled cards and the lifegain triggers. Have Shu Yun in the deck and two people instead of one will be getting double strike for 2 more mana. Anax and Cymede get trample and so does everyone else when you target them.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure Double Strike doesn't work that way. It doesn't make abilities that care about player damage trigger twice.
EDIT; Or apparently it does. I stand corrected.
 
E

ElyrionX

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I'm very concerned the PT is going to be a bunch of Goyf-Confidant-Liliana decks, e.g. $$$$.dec. I find it highly unlikely they'd ban any of those even if they really were oppressive, but the barrier for entry is simply too high with those cards as the staple cards.
Click to expand...

Yeah plus the Abzan/Jund shell is a very boring one and everyone expects it to be top dog now.

I just can't seem to settle on deck for Modern. There just does not seem to be a strong tier 1 control shell. UWR is what I have but does not seem to be positioned well in the meta especially with Bolt gradually losing relevance in the face of powerful creatures like Rhino and Tasigur.
 
F

Firemind

Member
There's always tron!

U/R Blue Moon has decent matchups against jund, abzan, zoo, twin, scapeshift, delver. The only two really bad matchups are affinity and storm. bogles depends on who is playing first i guess. tron is in favour of tron I imagine.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";149781275]I'm telling you guys, there's a way to break Temur Battle Rage. I can feel it.[/QUOTE]

Someone is way ahead of you.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Someone on Reddit caught Rashad Miller playing a Modern Dredge deck in the MTGO practice room. No clue if he built the deck himself or if he's being careless and leaking a strategy that he's heard from someone testing for the PT.

Essentially, you're dredging as hard as you can, then you unearth Fatestitcher, cast two Gravecrawlers, and all your Vengevines come roaring back. It sounds kinda neat actually. I feel like someone has probably used this shell before, but maybe Grave-Troll would give it some more consistency.
 
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