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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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OnPoint

Member
In my opinion, that kind of thing is wrong because it tends to overcentralize the metagame: Say, if you were running a deck that aimed to do its thing during the midgame, then you basically had to own a few titans in your colors (or wurms), or you wouldn't stand a chance against decks which did pack those cards, making them expensive as well, which would act as a deterrent for newer players who can't afford higher-end cards.

Having a bunch of cards that are good but not one-size-fits-all would help keep individual card prices in check, and also allow deckbuilders more chances to build their decks differently, placing further emphasis in the skill required to decide on one of the many available cards that gives you more of an edge in the current metagame you plan to take on with that deck.

I'm not good at analyzing individual MtG cards, but I'd say that the stronger cards are the ones that give you as many choices for as few risks as possible. Say, like how Cryptic Command gets to do an awful lot of stuff for 1UUU, or how Snapcaster lets you recast any card in your graveyard with an attached 2/1 body on top of that. Also, toning down the value you get for your mana over time means that they can experiment a bit more with spell effects, like how Counterspell was too strong at UU and constricted the design of "worse" variants to 1U or less, while Cancel at 1UU gave designers more leeway to work with (2U, UU, 1U and U), or how Shock rather than Lightning Bolt allowed them to fine-tune how much damage and/or added effects you'd be getting on top of your baseline 2 damage for R at instant speed.

1. I think if Wizards fills the creature pool right, the theoretical 6CMC cards I'm suggesting wouldn't always be the game ending threat the titans proved to usually be. They could help lock it up, but they don't HAVE to be the end of the world. I'd like to think the 5CMC creatures wouldn't be too far behind in power level. Even something like Huntmaster at 4CMC was awesome way back when. People could build decks that don't have 6CMC or 5CMC at all if the power can be spread properly across the 4 and lower tiers.

However, the haymakers don't have to be creatures. They can be anything. I still say Elspeth is a modern-day titan. Planeswalkers are totally viable finishers.

My problem is that since the titans, they seem to be scared to print anything of consequence at 6 CMC in higher numbers. Landing a huge threat is empowering. It makes you feel like you're doing something devastating. But people are winning now by Pack Ratting and Master of Waving and Fleecemane Lioning all over the place. It just doesn't have that same feeling to me right now.

This is why I'm so disappointed by the Gods. What a letdown.

2. In terms of your price issues, make them available at rare, or even put them in intro packs or something, and give Mythics a reason to exist. Let's stop using Mythic as a limited balancing mechanic and instead create unique cards that do crazy shit.

3. I personally don't think Counterspell was overpowered at UU. I think it was the crazy amount of other counters they printed around it that made it seem that way. Things like Mana Leak are busted. Counterspell forces you into heavy blue. UU is pretty restrictive. Countering spells is something they've really cut back on in terms of power, though.

4. Cryptic should have been UUUU. And even then it's probably still too good. I do, however, think it's funny that most of the balance issues you're talking about there are blue. Shock vs Lightning Bolt is really a call by Wizards on how they want to build Standard, btw. We'll see Bolt in standard again someday.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
As a relatively new player (just started playing in Theros) it's quite obvious that the power level of the creatures is somewhat insane at the moment and even THOSE creatures aren't getting played. What's the point of trying to play a 5 cmc creature with no protection ? Planeswalkers are harder to hit and don't die to doomblade/ultimate price and at least make the person have an answer specifically for a planeswalker.

Look at a card like Polukranos; a 5/5 on turn 4; a card that should be a powerhouse, but with all the cheap removal around how many winning decks have you seen play him ? Off the top of my head I can only think of when R/G Monsters, or Jund monsters was a thing. It never made sense to me from a perspective of; I can kill your guy outright for 2 or 3 mana that it cost you 5 or 6 mana to put on the board.

I think this is the way they are going; if you look at the white removal spells; Pillar of Light, Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Reprisal.

One exile's for toughness greater than 4, one kills power greater than 4, one exiles on attacking, and one can be removed and you get your creature back. All of them have drawbacks to playing them and makes it so you have to choose which card to take depending on the matchup.

Lots and lots of decks play Polukranos. Dies to Doom Blade doesn't necessarily apply when a creature is 5/5 for 4 CMC.
 

JulianImp

Member
1. I think if Wizards fills the creature pool right, the theoretical 6CMC cards I'm suggesting wouldn't always be the game ending threat the titans proved to usually be. They could help lock it up, but they don't HAVE to be the end of the world. I'd like to think the 5CMC creatures wouldn't be too far behind in power level. Even something like Huntmaster at 4CMC was awesome way back when. People could build decks that don't have 6CMC or 5CMC at all if the power can be spread properly across the 4 and lower tiers.

However, the haymakers don't have to be creatures. They can be anything. I still say Elspeth is a modern-day titan. Planeswalkers are totally viable finishers.

My problem is that since the titans, they seem to be scared to print anything of consequence at 6 CMC in higher numbers. Landing a huge threat is empowering. It makes you feel like you're doing something devastating. But people are winning now by Pack Ratting and Master of Waving and Fleecemane Lioning all over the place. It just doesn't have that same feeling to me right now.

This is why I'm so disappointed by the Gods. What a letdown.

2. In terms of your price issues, make them available at rare, or even put them in intro packs or something, and give Mythics a reason to exist. Let's stop using Mythic as a limited balancing mechanic and instead create unique cards that do crazy shit.

3. I personally don't think Counterspell was overpowered at UU. I think it was the crazy amount of other counters they printed around it that made it seem that way. Things like Mana Leak are busted. Counterspell forces you into heavy blue. UU is pretty restrictive. Countering spells is something they've really cut back on in terms of power, though.

4. Cryptic should have been UUUU. And even then it's probably still too good. I do, however, think it's funny that most of the balance issues you're talking about there are blue. Shock vs Lightning Bolt is really a call by Wizards on how they want to build Standard, btw. We'll see Bolt in standard again someday.

1- I didn't mean to argue just about 6 CMC creatures, but more about not printing cards that are considerably better than every other option at their CMC and also command an overpowering presence compared to other cards, mostly due to the raw power, usefulness and/or sheer versatility they provide. Unless you're very certain of using a certain metagame card to hate on a deck or card that you predict will be everywhere, most of the time you'll end up running the cards that maximize your chances of winning against as many archetypes as possible, therefore restricting your choices to one or two cards tops, all of which are probably going to be in high demand due to being universally useful.

2- Yeah, I believe that mythics should do crazier things more often. For example, I loved Mirror-Mad Phantasm despite how the current combat damage rules relegated it to junk mythic status (damage using the stack would've made it at least somewhat viable). Quirky mythics like that feel a lot better to me than ones which break limited games in half but don't offer anything for constructed players.

3- I was trying to imply not that Counterspell was too good, but that having it in standard would automatically place a stranglehold on what other counters they could print alongside it. More splashable counters are indeed worse for the game's well-being than ones that cost lots of blue mana, but moving the baseline counterspell to 1UU: Counter + small benefit looks like a good thing.

That reminds me how Psychic Strike ended up not being that much of an issue despite it only costing a single blue mana, contrary to a poster's speculation. Could that mean we're more likely to see 1CD counterspells in the near future?

4- Yeah, CC is the single command that's an instant, as well as the one that costs the least (outside of Profane, which costs XBB and could be cast for 3 mana), which combined with the usefulness of its many modes made it into quite the figurative swiss army knife. Then, there're cards such as Bitterblossom, where players at first were debating whether a 1/1 flier each turn was better or worse than a card drawn by Phyrexian Arena, and then they finally realized how well it worked alongside Lorwyn's tribal theme and how much that lower mana cost mattered (it probably helped that faeries had acces to Thoughtseize and Cryptic Command at the time as well).

Basically, I'd say scaling down the average power of both creatures and cards which answer creatures could lead to more granularity in the designs they can come up with, in the same way that settling on a baseline of 2 damage for R let them print 3 damage for 1R, which would've made a lot less sense had Lighting Bolt been in standard at the time. It's true that they could eventually move the baseline cost:effect ratio around back into LB's area, but that also depends on how tough the creatures are at the time.
 

Crocodile

Member
I posted this earlier but I'm asking again because I want some more opinions:

Trade 1: Gilded Lotus, Thassa, Jace the Mind Scupltor, Ulamog, Kozilkek and Cryptic Command (Player's Reward) for Lightly Played Revised Volcanic Island

Trade 2: Lightning Greaves (FNM), Vendilion Clique, Restoration Angel, Elspeth Knight Errant (Duel Deck), Creakwood Liege, 2x Cascade Bluffs, 2x Wooded Bastion, Fire-Lit Thicket, Iona, Sheild of Emeria for Lightly Played Revised Tundra

(I'd be getting the duals BTW)
 

Firemind

Member
Seems fair. Duals are only going to get more valuable, especially blue duals. Out of those cards, JTMS might increase in value (if he gets unbanned in modern).
 

Kerrinck

Member
Seems fair. Duals are only going to get more valuable, especially blue duals. Out of those cards, JTMS might increase in value (if he gets unbanned in modern).

Kinda doubt that is going to happen and I really hope I don't get to be proven wrong. Jace is way too overpowered for the format imo.
 

Kerrinck

Member
Iterating on my Modern Faeries deck, but I still can't figure out what I want in the sideboard. There's a few cards in the main that I don't love either, mostly Pharika's Cure (double black is bad, but I can't think of other options for lifegain) and Sword of Light and Shadow (which is almost always worse than Feast and Famine). Any ideas?

No Negate and Sower? I usually see at least a couple of them on most of the lists sb.
 

f0rk

Member
Iterating on my Modern Faeries deck, but I still can't figure out what I want in the sideboard. There's a few cards in the main that I don't love either, mostly Pharika's Cure (double black is bad, but I can't think of other options for lifegain) and Sword of Light and Shadow (which is almost always worse than Feast and Famine). Any ideas?

Threads is a pretty good sideboard card right now
Maybe a Batterskull
 

Lucario

Member
One thing I hope they revise is white's removal suite. Over the years white has been getting great removal cards which is baffling to me. Black/red should have the strongest/most efficient creature removal, white and blue situational creature removal and green the worst of the bunch.

It's insane how much better white removal is than black in Vintage Masters.

It's insane how little work WoTC put into balancing Vintage Masters. White and red are so amazing that there's no real need to look at the other colors. Even if you're the only drafter in something like B/U or G/B, you're still probably going to lose to the boros or selesnya player.

I've played forty drafts of MMA and over half my decks were W/R. The ones that weren't were mostly W/G, mono white, or mono red. Simic madness is overdrafted, but even if you manage to be the only person drafting it, you'll still lose to Rites of Initiation goblins & defblade elite auras.
 

ultron87

Member
Midnight Gen Con drafts wooooo!

In the course of getting to the finals to split I managed to kill myself with an Ob Nixilis trigger off an Evolving Wilds and won a game where my opponent resolved a Soul of Shandalar, a two for one Cone of Flame, and a Hornet Queen. Best of time and worst of times, yo.
 
Helping my friend prep for the WMCQ and we went to FNM. My matches with Esper Control:

Swiss:
  1. No Limit Soldier Tribal
  2. Burn
  3. Rabble Red
  4. Jund Planeswalkers
  5. Split to top 8

Top 8
  1. BG Midrange

I bricked out in top 8 like you wouldn't believe. Double thoughtseize, triple dissolve, double d-sphere, 10 lands. I saw something like 26 cards and couldn't find a rev or win condition. Dude has a clear board except a mutavault and no cards in hand so I scry a last breath to the top. Dude rips a duress for the win -_-

I beat the burn player with 62 life at the end LOL
 
Just got back from another sweet day of Magic. Started off with a grab-bag draft; I had a pack of Innistrad, then Conspiracy, then Apocalypse. The Innistrad rare was a Stromkirk Noble, which I passed for a Civilized Scholar. I took a Brago from the Conspiracy pack, and a Mystic Snake from the Apocalypse pack (which I wasn't planning on playing, but it's a card I love and wanted to put into my Zegana EDH deck). I ended up playing a three-color Esper control deck that got to blink Fate Foretold with Brago multiple times, make giant fliers with Empyrial Armor, and plow through my deck with Civilized Scholar to get threshold for Cabal Torturer.

Grab-bag drafts are so sweet. It's a shame they can't (wont't?) do it on MTGO. They sometimes do chaos sealed events, but chaos/grab-bag drafts are so much better.

We then did a draft of my Peasant cube, which turned out really good. Most of the decks were really well matched up against each other, save for a savage Dimir control deck that just throttled everything it came up against. I had a Boros aggro deck that somehow always cast a turn 1 Reckless Waif and (usually) got there.

Finished it up with another Conspiracy draft, finally finishing off the box that's been floating around. Opened a Mirari's Wake and managed to force GW. I also managed to draft a Lurking Automaton at sixth, then an Agent of Acquisitions near the end of pack one. When my second pack had a Pelakka Wurm, Custodi Soulbinders, and another Lurking Automaton, plus some other decent stuff, it became clear that I had to pop the Agent.

I got to cast 15/15s for 5, and even cast my Soulbinders as a 28/28 for 4. Emrakul-sized critters for next to nothing. Sometimes I love Conspiracy. :)
 
JTMS doesn't have the support in Modern to make him as broken as he is in Legacy or even in standard at the time.

How Lili is broken in Modern but not in Legacy.

The tools present.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Yeah we call it Potluck draft and we do it whenever its someone's birthday usually. I always try to bring at least one pack of Planar Chaos to the table, since its fairly cheap and everyone gets a laugh out of the bizarre cards.
 

y2dvd

Member
Went 3-1 in draft tonight, losing to a W/U tokens deck. Holy crap, Raise the Alarms into Triplicate Spirits is broken. Backed with Selfless Cathar, Paragon of New Dawn, and a few tempo spells and it's peace out. I'm going to splash black no matter what to sideboard for Festergloom now.

Pack1, Pick1 was Hornets Queen, so I drafted green pretty heavily and had a Reclamation Sage. 2nd pack had Kalonian Twingrove and a foil Reclamation Sage. I took Kalonian Twingrove thinking I already have a Reclamation Sage. What I didn't know was that foil Reclamation Sage is going for $10. Oh Modern. After the draft, I still think I made the right choice draft wise. Twingrove gives you two bodies and Invasive Species allows me to bounce Groove back and cast for more tokens.

There's definitely a case for a 2nd Reclamation Sage. There are a lot of targets to hit as many of the artifact creatures are actually playable. Being able to recycle the Sage with Invasive Species felt so good. I pretty much destroyed artifact decks with that play.
In both games, my artifact opponent played T1 Ornithopter, T2 Ensoul Artifact swinging in the air for 5 already. Thankfully, I had the Sage turn 3 each time.

2xSunblade Elf
1xElvish Mystic
1xVenom Sliver
2xRuneclaw Bear
2xInvasive Species
1xReclamation Sage
1xNetcaster Spider
1xLiving Totem
1xParagon of Eternal Wilds
1xKalonian Twingrove
1xHornet Queen
1xSiege Wurm

1xRanger's Guile
1xVerdant Haven
2xHunt the Weak
1xLightning Strike
1xRestock


1xBlastfire Bolt
1xFeral Incarnation

11xForest
3xPlains
3xMountains

Brought in Bronze Sable for Intimidate creatures which saved me a lot of life.
Inferno Fist for pesky evasive creatures.
Gather Courage and Titanic Growth for burn decks.

I passed 2 other Elvish Mystics that I should've probably valued higher. Verdant Haven probably wasn't necessary either as I wasn't playing with too many bombs, though it definitely did it's job and ramped me up a few times. I probably could've replaced Living Totem with Shaman of Springs for the draw card. Recycling it with Invasive Species probably would've been better.

Why is NIssa $40?
 

kirblar

Member
SPEED

1x Frenzied Goblin
1x Infantry Veteran
2x Leonin Snarecaster
2x Dregscape Zombie
1x Goblin Deathraiders
1x Hellraiser Goblin
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Goblin Warchief
1x Hell’s Thunder
1x Kathari Bomber
1x Shambling Remains
1x Mardu-Heart-Piercer
2x Beetleback Chief
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Ogre Battledriver
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Scourge Devil
1x Zurgo Helmsmasher
1x Oni of Wild Places
1x Reckless Abandon
1x Shock
1x Bone Splinters
1x Arc Trail
1x Goblin Bombardment
2x Krenko’s Command
1x Act of Treason
1x Dauntless Onslaught
1x Orcish Cannonade
2x Fiery Fall
1x Fury of the Horde
1x Banefire
2x Evolving Wilds
1x Ghitu Encampment
2x Nomad Outpost
10x Mountain
3x Plains
6x Swamp



CUNNING

2x Faerie Imposter
2x Coral Trickster
2x Fathom Seer
1x Jeskai Elder
1x Willbender
1x Sparkmage Apprentice
1x Lone Missionary
1x Master Decoy
1x Echo Tracer
1x Kor Hookmaster
1x Stonecloaker
2x Aquamorph Entity
1x Hussar Patrol
1x Lightning Angel
1x Faerie Invaders
1x Thousand Winds
1x Arcanis the Omnipotent
1x Sphinx of Uthuun
1x Fleeting Distraction
1x Stave Off
1x Swift Justice
1x Impulse
1x Mana Leak
1x Lightning Helix
1x Hold the Line
1x Inferno Trap
1x Steam Augury
2x Traumatic Visions
1x Whiplash Trap
1x Arrow Volley Trap
1x Repeal
2x Mystic Monastery
2x Terramorphic Expanse
10x Island
3x Mountain
7x Plains
 
Note that this is another instance of Wizards mistakenly putting up the decklists on their site early. The pages have since been taken down.

New cards are:
Nomad Outpost - probably RWB (Mardu) land
Mystic Monastery - probably URW (Jeskai) land
Jeskai Elder

Already previewed:
Mardu Heart-Piercer
Zurgo Helmsmasher
Thousand Winds
 

Yeef

Member
No goblin guide is crazy
Unless Goblin Guide is going to be in the block. They've been making a point to reprint Modern cards in Standard over the last couple of years and some signs in M15 point to the possibility of Goblin tribal being a thing come rotation. Guide is also a pretty good enabler for Raid.
 
Okay guys, we're getting to the point where some of the Theros cards are going to be pretty reasonable pickups: what cards are you going to pick up in advance of Khans coming out? Or are you just going to wait until spoilers?

Pretty much waiting until spoilers, but I do have this shell:

rotationxpx5y.jpg

The proxies other than the nissas are stuff that's in other decks at the moment. Sideboard's super random because we don't know the meta yet.
 

MjFrancis

Member
I never thought about Goblin Guide possibly being in Khans. I may wait until the spoilers are finished before buying a playset. I don't play enough to need them immediately, even if they do creep up a bit in the meantime.

I'd rather grab another Jace v. Vraska before buying Speed v. Cunning. The recent goblin theme does lend credence to a Goblin Guide reprint too, so if that happens I'll just save money all around and trade for new ones.
 

OnPoint

Member
I never thought about Goblin Guide possibly being in Khans. I may wait until the spoilers are finished before buying a playset. I don't play enough to need them immediately, even if they do creep up a bit in the meantime.

I'd rather grab another Jace v. Vraska before buying Speed v. Cunning. The recent goblin theme does lend credence to a Goblin Guide reprint too, so if that happens I'll just save money all around and trade for new ones.

It's one of those cards that I thought would make sense in Zend-II-kar, but maybe putting it in Khans makes sense too.
 
I suppose Goblin Guide's downside does make sense as, well, a downside, in an environment where color fixing is likely important. Though just to be clear, we're only entertaining the thought of it being in Khans due to it not being in Speed vs. Cunning, right?
 
You know, one of the biggest issues people have with magic is mana flood/screw and people complain all the time "mulled to five so I lost". So I thought that, what if every time you mulliganed, your opponent draws a card and you go to seven? That way you're more likely to start off the game with a good balance of spells and lands.

But then I realized the obvious problem with this solution, where you could intentionally mulligan until your opponent decks.

Maybe if you could only mulligan 3 times? I think that would be reasonable.
 

Yeef

Member
The mulligan rules have to be what they are to prevent abuse. There really isn't any other realistic solution.
They should have separate mulligan rules for limited, just like there are separate deckbuilding rules. Having to mull to 5 or 4 in a limited game is much worse than it is in constructed.
 

ironmang

Member
Played some paper magic in the first time yesterday in about 3 weeks and ended up going 5-2 at a 74 person PTQ which was good enough for 12th. My losses were against affinity and burn that just had really fucking busted draws. Burn player killed me on his turn 3 by going T1 guide, T2 vex+guide, T3 spike and bolt. Had 2 obstinate baloths in hand and ramped so I would have had access on my T3 but he had a pretty unbeatable hand against me.
 

f0rk

Member
I didn't realize they got that small in the States. Yesterday in the UK I played in a 280+ player one and they've all been that size this season.
 
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