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[y2dvd]

Cedric Phillips and Patrick Sullivan deep dive into the Pro scene, the challenges MtG faces as a spectator sport and what needs to happen to keep it relevant. Pretty interesting, especially their discussion on why MtG tournament broadcasts are falling behind.

I think Patrick was pretty spot on. The biggest way to grow is accessibility. Visually, MtG is not casual friendly in the least. I mean I consider myself casual/competitive in standard/limited and I don't bother watching streams of other formats because I just don't know what the cards are. Deck techs and pop up graphics helps briefly, but it can't keep up with the pace of cards being played. Sometimes, the glare of the sleeves makes it impossible to identify the cards.

Here's some possible inprovements in no particular order.

1) All use sleeves with no glare. I know it cuts down on team sponsorships and identity as teams have their own sleeves, but as mentioned earlier, sometimes you just can't see the cards.

2) Time delay. Now I know the negatives to time delay. Broadcasting truly live an appeal within itself. Someone at the events can tweet out spoilers. Etc. But a time delay will give the graphics team ample time to make the presentation more accessible to view. I dunno how much delay is needed though. 7 minutes? How do most "live" poker broadcast do it?

3) If the claim is gonna be made that pro players help sell and advertise the game, make more of an emphasis on the pros themselves. Sell us a story about their journey instead of just giving us their stats. Stories sells.

 

[Jhriad]

I think Patrick was pretty spot on. The biggest way to grow is accessibility. Visually, MtG is not casual friendly in the least. I mean I consider myself casual/competitive in standard/limited and I don't bother watching streams of other formats because I just don't know what the cards are. Deck techs and pop up graphics helps briefly, but it can't keep up with the pace of cards being played. Sometimes, the glare of the sleeves makes it impossible to identify the cards.

Here's some possible inprovements in no particular order.

1) All use sleeves with no glare. I know it cuts down on team sponsorships and identity as teams have their own sleeves, but as mentioned earlier, sometimes you just can't see the cards.

2) Time delay. Now I know the negatives to time delay. Broadcasting truly live an appeal within itself. Someone at the events can tweet out spoilers. Etc. But a time delay will give the graphics team ample time to make the presentation more accessible to view. I dunno how much delay is needed though. 7 minutes? How do most "live" poker broadcast do it?

3) If the claim is gonna be made that pro players help sell and advertise the game, make more of an emphasis on the pros themselves. Sell us a story about their journey instead of just giving us their stats. Stories sells.

1) Cards would still be illegible regardless of whether or not the sleeves cause glare. The problem with card visibility is that you need to know all the cards simply by looking at the art and the new/casual players probably aren't familiar enough with the art of all the cards for them to know the board state at a glance.

2) Professional poker doesn't have to throw up new graphics or bring up a specific card on screen for the viewership to understand what's going on. Poker tournaments are, from what I've seen, recorded and then aired a good bit later. Poker tourneys are frequently delayed for a couple reasons:

• You're able to put the tournament on television when it would be most advantageous either because there's an open time slot and/or potentially higher ratings.
• You can have several cameramen moving around the room at something like the WSOP getting B-roll, dropping in on the Pros considered to be 'of interest' at the moment, and if your cameras catch a few things of interest you can add the commentary in post rather than having to use larger crews of commentators to cover the floor.
• The ability to add in the human interest story bits about participants that are doing well or might have a compelling storyline.

That said, a bit of a time delay might not hurt if they were able to use the delay for something like inserting the proper card graphics on the side when they're relevant or things of that nature. Given how streamlined I'm sure that process is now I doubt they'd even need much of a delay.


3) See the third point above. It's a lot more compelling to tell a human interest piece about someone that's doing well rather than someone that gets knocked out on Day One. Given that their coverage is live they're limited in the types of pieces they can run. The focus on things like teams over a single individual is a good way for them to skim over potentially interesting stories but it does give up a bit of the draw that a longer form human interest segment would garner.

 

[red13th]

omg :lol

 

[kirblar]

Poker tournaments are time-delayed because they're massive, because there's lots of dead action during rounds, and because they need to synch up the hole cams to record commentary. Live is rare, and its almost always final table only.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

This is almost certainly not possible right now, but what coverage needs is a way to track cards on the board (excluding lands) and present a stream overlay that will let me hover over a card on the stream and see it pop up.

It'll never happen, but it would be awesome.

 

[Haly]

This is almost certainly not possible right now, but what coverage needs is a way to track cards on the board (excluding lands) and present a stream overlay that will let me hover over a card on the stream and see it pop up.

It'll never happen, but it would be awesome.

I think it's technically possible. Computer vision is advanced enough to be able to pick out these things, just look at what AR can do with arbitrary images: https://youtu.be/qfxqfdtxyVA?t=737

Of course the sleeve glare are still a problem, but what you're describing is very within reach... if a company like Valve was in charge of the digital MtG experience.

 

[ultron87]

What if all the matches happened on motorcycles.

 

[Haly]

What if they projected holograms from giant wristwatches?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What if all the matches happened on motorcycles.

I understood that reference and that makes me sad and a bit embarrassed.

 

[SigmasonicX]

An idea for improving coverage:
* Have some prepared graphics for Day 1 explaining certain cards and card interactions that are expected to appear, that can be shown when relevant. For example, a series of pop-ups explaining Avacyn:
"Avacyn is a powerful guardian angel who can appear in a flash to protect your creatures, by granting them indestructible until end of turn."
"If you're facing a deck that uses white magic, this means you have to be careful as long as your opponent has the mana available to cast her."
"When a creature dies under Avacyn's watch, she undergoes a dark transformation where she becomes stronger and deals 3 damage to every creature and opponent."
"Thanks to Avacyn's transformation having a different name than the normal version, it's possible to cast another Avacyn without running into the legend rule that prevents you from having two legendary creatures with the same name."
"All of this combines to make Avacyn a card you must deal with as soon as possible."
* You can even include some flavor-related pop-ups to get viewers more interested.
* It would be understandable if they didn't have pop-ups for stuff like Seasons Past on Day 1, but they need to then prepare them for Day 2. In general, coverage of cards and strategies need to be better as the tournament goes on, and the coverage needs to be great by the time the finals are reached and the ins and outs of the final decks are known.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The problem is that streaming a paper card game tournament is a logistical fucking nightmare.

If MTGO was the only way the game existed it would be way easier, but it isn't.

 

[The Technomancer]

The problem is that streaming a paper card game tournament is a logistical fucking nightmare.

If MTGO was the only way the game existed it would be way easier, but it isn't.

I've thought for a while that someone needs to come up with a computer vision system that recognizes the cards on the table and renders them as a more readable set of graphics. The problems are primarily sleeve glare, I suppose. There's lots of really easy criteria you can use for filtering down the space of possible cards though; the number of blue cards with a typeline of visual length similar to Instant in Standard at any given time isn't too many pieces of art to compare

 

[Joe Molotov]

Two words: Strip Magic.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Two words: Strip Magic.

...have you seen what the average player looks like

 

[Ashodin]

...have you seen what the average player looks like

Do we get that guy going around to tables again doing the pray pose?

 

[kirblar]

Two words: Strip Magic.

No more Cock Magic Randy.

 

[Santiako]

Cock Magic would definitely improve stream numbers.

Spoiler

 

[Joe Molotov]

...have you seen what the average player looks like

Paulo Vitor is my waifu.

 

[Ashodin]

Husbando

 

[SigmasonicX]

Some of the decks here are interesting.

I like the idea of a UG deck that uses Sight Beyond Sight for the rebound to cast Crush of Tentacles surged on turn 5, though the deck presented doesn't seem good. I also like the Naya planeswalkers + oaths deck and the BG ramp deck.

 

[cooltrainer]

Can someone explain to me the logic of cutting pro fees? How does that make the game more exciting and visible? I know it's bullshit but I can't believe that's the line they are going with.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Can someone explain to me the logic of cutting pro fees? How does that make the game more exciting and visible? I know it's bullshit but I can't believe that's the line they are going with.

They went back on it but they don't want to fund a "Pro Lifestyle." They want the top level to be semi-pro, not serious pro that expects continuous pay raises and such because they don't see any return on it.

 

[Ashodin]

They went back on it but they don't want to fund a "Pro Lifestyle." They want the top level to be semi-pro, not serious pro that expects continuous pay raises and such because they don't see any return on it.

We need sponsorships

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

We need sponsorships

well there's glorious much room on 8 by 3cm sleeves

 

[Infinite Stars]

Of That Naya Walkers list, I still have my question as to why GW Tokens at the PT wasn't running Oath of Gideon. It gets Tokens, gives Nissa/Gideon more room to use buffs, etc.

 

[Ashodin]

well there's glorious much room on 8 by 3cm sleeves

playmats, t-shirts, hats... there's stuff there.

 

[kirblar]

We need sponsorships

That would require WotC to not block them like they have the past 20 years.

NOW they want in on the game after everyone else did it w/ massive success. And they're super LTTP.

 

[Ashodin]

That would require WotC to not block them like they have the past 20 years.

If you want to pay the pros less yourself, you have to have sponsorships.

 

[kirblar]

If you want to pay the pros less yourself, you have to have sponsorships.

Correct, but again, they're having to overcome 20 years of screwing this up and being UFC/Reebok.

Having faith in WotC (as a sponsor) is not going to be easy.

 

[Ashodin]

Having faith in WOTC in general to adapt to the times is generally not a good investment of your faith.

They're surprisingly slow to realize how to grow the game on the internet, as evidenced by how long MTGO has been around as well as how their coverage pales in comparison to SCG.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

playmats, t-shirts, hats... there's stuff there.

aside from playmats none of that usually gets featured in streams.

 

[A Serious Man]

The way forward is streaming + tournament prize pools but this is reliant on WotC providing the world with a competent digital experience so the whole thing is probably doomed.

 

[Ashodin]

At the top you also have Hasbro who want to hedge their bets and eat their cake too.

The way forward is streaming + tournament prize pools but this is reliant on WotC providing the world with a competent digital experience so the whole thing is probably doomed.

Well hopefully Digital Next is that experience. It should be absolutely capable for streaming. If it lessens the travel costs for streamers/players, all the better for it. They can still have paper tournaments, but the prize pool needs to be huge. That way, many pros assume you transition from casual paper -> digital pro -> paper tourney pro. It would create a route where they get a revenue stream no matter the phase the player transitions into.

 

[A Serious Man]

Owen Turtenwald sees the writing on the wall.

Before these changes I was happy to say that I wanted to be a Magic professional for the foreseeable future, but this new model looks like it may be unsustainable and I do not know if playing Magic at the highest level will be something I want to do 2 years from now.

 

[Ashodin]

Coming from him, that's pretty big I'd say.

 

[bigkrev]

Take your kid to work day at WOTC, they had the kids design cards and they mocked them up.
Younger Kids:

Older Kids:.

 

[SigmasonicX]

The flavor text on both of them is great.

 

[Ashodin]

Legacy playable

 

[A Serious Man]

Younger Kids: 1
Older Kids: 0

 

[SigmasonicX]

Just saw this pointed out.

This is actually hilarious on Avacyn.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Owen Turtenwald sees the writing on the wall.

Let's hope he has any marketable job skills because he's kind of a smuggo.

 

[Ashodin]

Let's hope he has any marketable job skills because he's kind of a smuggo.

"Can I just keep writing for websites"

 

[Yeef]

Even young kids know that blue is supposed to be the best color.

"I really like dragons!"

"Okay, so then i guess you want to make a red card."

"No, blue."

 

[A Serious Man]

Even young kids know that blue is supposed to be the best color.

"I really like dragons!"

"Okay, so then i guess you want to make a red card."

"No, blue."

Everyone knows children play control and love a good finisher.

 

[OnPoint]

Even young kids know that blue is supposed to be the best color.

"I really like dragons!"

"Okay, so then i guess you want to make a red card."

"No, blue."

It's even one less mana than the black card.

 

[charlequin]

That said, a bit of a time delay might not hurt if they were able to use the delay for something like inserting the proper card graphics on the side when they're relevant or things of that nature.

This shouldn't be hard, it's probably a one-time investment to write software to manage this stuff and then just the cost of having a guy actually sit there and do it.

Like, think about it this way: how long does it take to open a tab and find a card you know the name of (say, Archangel Avacyn) on magiccards.info? Like ten seconds. So: build a tool that has high-res pictures of every card (which you have, because you're Wizards) and a notes field where you pre-populate notes about cards you know will be interesting going in and where stuff can get added during the tournament. Get everyone's deck lists (which, again, you can easily have because there's only four feature matches per round) and give the guy running the overlay each one as links so he can just click each card to put it up, along with options to show the notes, to put a little pointer over the stream for that card, or to show the decklists.

(Also, force featured players to make their hand visible to a camera so the cards in hand lists for both players can always be up and always be accurate.)

Can someone explain to me the logic of cutting pro fees?

Don't listen to anything they've actually said about it, the logic of cutting pro fees is that if it turns out that doing so isn't a huge brand detriment (this part of the logic seems to have been incorrect) it lets you boost the Worlds prize pool a ton without spending any extra money.

Let's hope he has any marketable job skills because he's kind of a smuggo.

Asked and answered?

 

[Joe Molotov]

Even young kids know that blue is supposed to be the best color.

"I really like dragons!"

"Okay, so then i guess you want to make a red card."

"No, blue."

I like how it's indestructible but it still has 12 toughness. You know...just in case!

 

[WanderingWind]

I like how it's indestructible but it still has 12 toughness. You know...just in case!

Dies to Tragic Slip.

 

[f0rk]

Didn't that SOI prerelease streamer draft thing have some tech that read whatever card a player put in the middle of the table automatically?

 

[Yeef]

Didn't that SOI prerelease streamer draft thing have some tech that read whatever card a player put in the middle of the table automatically?

Yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3YkcdnYHjE