WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I always knew there was something tentacley about you
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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
- Status
I always knew there was something tentacley about you
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Could do with another mono black dragon.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
But it has to be another zombie dragon.
charlequin
Banned
That doesn't really seem relevant to me at all. PV wants to have his cake and eat it too here, by saying that Modern is good now but that he was still right to be opposed to the Twin ban -- even though the Twin ban is the fundamental causal agent that got us where we are now, and even though we probably would have seen something like the Visions unban even without Eldrazi Winter. He was wrong to be opposed to it at the time (probably negatively influenced by this admitted hatred of the format) and events since that time have backed that up.
People say this all the time and all it results in is miserable formats like Kamigawa-era Standard where WotC dragged their feet on blowing up Affinity so they could "be sure."
(All that putting aside the fact that there was probably more data on Twin than any other ban in Modern's history.)
They used to not do this and the result was mostly a more awkward competitive calendar. It's better to have the card pool change exactly four times a year than to make people target interim formats. Plus they're not going to ban stuff from a set one month after it comes out, so this would just mean it takes an extra month to ban anything that's actually a problem.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Bladewing should have been a skeleton the next skeletal dragon better be a skeleton this time.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Deal, but only if Emmy gets food poisoning as a result and dies and we never hear from the Eldrazi ever again.
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's totally relevant! At the time that Twin was banned, we had no idea what was going to happen next. All we knew was that they killed the decks that were in the finals of the last Pro Tour right before the next Pro Tour. It's absurd to say that the reactions there were "wrong" just because you have more data now than anyone else could have had back them. You have to evaluate the correctness of the decision to act based on the evidence available at the time.
charlequin said:
Standard is a fundamentally different beast since it rotates every year (now every six months). If you wait for data, you ruin the whole season. To be honest, my metric for standard bannings wouldn't be based on standings, but rather on tournament attendance. If stores and TOs report lower attendance because Standard is broken, and I think a simple banlist update would fix that, I would make that change.
charlequin said:
And all that data indicated that it was very good but never oppressive.
charlequin said:
That's an interesting perspective I hadn't considered before.
And all that data indicated that it was very good but never oppressive.
The old axiom when Twin was legal when building a deck was you either had to win by turn 4 or you had to have a way to stop Twin. Some came to view that type of thinking as the format warping around the Twin archetype. What's your position on that line of thinking?
SigmasonicX
Member
Has someone made an Emrakul version of the "IT'S ME AUSTIN!" gif yet? I'll need it for the Eldritch Moon OT.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
On it
I almost posted this in the boardgame thread but I suppose the MTG thread is more appropriate.
Got in a cube draft on the weekend! We haven't done one in a while, and my cube is falling behind a bit in terms of the newer cards but it's still good fun. Ended up with a white black weenie deck that basically won games on the back of super strong picks (mind twist, balance, demonic tutor, etc)
Anyways, anyone know of a good way to learn/teach Magic the Gathering? There are some people who I think would have fun with something like a cube draft (no monetary investment needed on their part), but it's pretty damn complex to learn on it's own without a few years of playing MTG to fall back on. It's not really like other board games where you can run down the rules in 15-20 minutes and then everyone is good to go.
I tried making some simple starter decks but never actually tried them with new players. Is that a good place to start? Is it the kind of thing where they'll need to get all invested on their own? (which is unlikely for the kind of player I'm thinking of).
Got in a cube draft on the weekend! We haven't done one in a while, and my cube is falling behind a bit in terms of the newer cards but it's still good fun. Ended up with a white black weenie deck that basically won games on the back of super strong picks (mind twist, balance, demonic tutor, etc)
Anyways, anyone know of a good way to learn/teach Magic the Gathering? There are some people who I think would have fun with something like a cube draft (no monetary investment needed on their part), but it's pretty damn complex to learn on it's own without a few years of playing MTG to fall back on. It's not really like other board games where you can run down the rules in 15-20 minutes and then everyone is good to go.
I tried making some simple starter decks but never actually tried them with new players. Is that a good place to start? Is it the kind of thing where they'll need to get all invested on their own? (which is unlikely for the kind of player I'm thinking of).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The set being hot garbage for MTGO value is offset by the fact that there is a week of 10 ticket Triple ZEN drafts and a week of ZZW drafts. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the ninth most valuable card in a ZZW draft on MTGO. There are 10 cards in that format worth 10 tix (the price of the draft) or more, and 2 of them are Mythics.
Scalding Tarn
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Celestial Colonnade
Arid Mesa
Marsh Flats
Creeping Tar Pit
Mindbreak Trap
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Bloodghast
There are 8 more cards worth more than 5 tix.
I understand watching coverage is a small sample size and my own viewing is anecdotal, but many of the games I've seen recently go well past Turn 4. Do we have any data on the Turn 4 situation since the Eye of Ugin ban? Do we know how many games end at what point? I'd like to know if this is a myth or if it's actually still a Turn 4 format since the bannings.
And last I checked, the whole Turn 4 thing was in reference to Wizard's decree that no deck shall win before Turn 4, not that the format itself is or should be a Turn 4 format. But a more knowledgeable person could correct me if I'm wrong.
When are these drafts?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The format is not a 4 turn format. That's why Nahiri is an actual card in Modern - because in a world where the most popular deck just wins if you tap out, you can never play a card like that. That's why Twin was oppressive even though it didn't always seem like it.
Just practice more cube drafts. It's not like the cards change that much. Give them pointers before the draft and rules/deckbuilding advice during and after the match. It's a slow learning process but it's so much more fun to cube than playing preconstructed decks that will suck the fun out in a matter of hours.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They aren't for a couple months (I think they start 8/17) but EMA is only going to be online for 2 weeks, same as the amount of time in which you can draft Zendikar block.
charlequin
Banned
I think the way I would frame my position here is: there was a reading of WotC's banning choices for Modern that reduced it to arbitrary choices like "ban whatever won last," and under the assumption that they were applying this methodology, the results of any given ban could go in a variety of directions -- but there was also an argument for Twin specifically based on the fundamentals of how the deck played and how it affected deck construction, which I think was solidly supported before the ban, and that the effect of a Twin ban on PT OGW construction (i.e. the day one field before we found out that Eldrazi steamrolled everything) already suggested that the ban was having the intended effect.
Like, this is why I say there was plenty of data gathered: there wasn't enough to support a Twin ban on the basis of "it's too dominant in terms of wins," because the deck never quite got there; but looking at the effect it had on blue deck construction or metagame deck choices was possible for a long, long time before they finally dropped the hammer.
Scapeshift? Ad Nauseam? Swordthopter technically involves equipping creatures but I if that takes off again I don't think it should count. Does mill count? I still see people trying to make Ascendancy or Storm happen, too, and there's a bunch of weird random stuff for rogue brewers to tinker with like Pili-Pala/Grand Architect or Turns or Enduring Ideal or Shape Anew.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Replace Nexus with Glistener Elf and you have accurately described some folks' view on the deck.
I agree about precons, that would probably be pretty boring.
I'm just concerned about throwing someone whole hog into a draft with only basic knowledge for how the game works! I'm talking about folks who play plenty of board games, but haven't touched MTG yet. However, maybe I'm overestimating a straight forward creature based deck? (which I could recommend they aim for when starting out)
Infinite Stars
Member
There's also Bubble Hulk, for however much that deck is played.
Infect feels fine. As much as I don't like the deck, it's still easy to beat. Most of the deck is pump spells and as long as you don't try and kill during combat you should be golden.
Honestly, if anything is going to get banned from Modern in the near future, let it be SSG. Sure, it would kill off some combo decks, but screw decks that fart out 9 Mana on turn 4 for an instant kill.
Infect feels fine. As much as I don't like the deck, it's still easy to beat. Most of the deck is pump spells and as long as you don't try and kill during combat you should be golden.
Honestly, if anything is going to get banned from Modern in the near future, let it be SSG. Sure, it would kill off some combo decks, but screw decks that fart out 9 Mana on turn 4 for an instant kill.
charlequin
Banned
I would never recommend teaching someone via draft, especially cube draft. Here's what happens when you don't know Magic and this is your introduction: you spend twenty minutes doing something you don't understand well, either making choices in the dark or slowing everyone down to ask advice; then you spend the next three hours playing games where you get completely blown out for reasons that are completely obscure to me, with no ability to adjust from experience because the drafting part is already done. That's not going to drive everyone off but it's definitely not doing them a favor in terms of learning what's fun about the game.
On the other hand, sealed works pretty well since it gives you experience right away with deckbuilding, but it constrains your options significantly (to avoid analysis paralysis) and it gives you the ability to learn from mistakes and change your deck based on what you've learned -- and any situation where you can learn a lesson and apply it immediately is the best possible thing for learning.
On the other hand, sealed works pretty well since it gives you experience right away with deckbuilding, but it constrains your options significantly (to avoid analysis paralysis) and it gives you the ability to learn from mistakes and change your deck based on what you've learned -- and any situation where you can learn a lesson and apply it immediately is the best possible thing for learning.
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's easy to make the argument that the format is warped by any number of cards. If "warping" was the issue, I bet I could make a really good case for banning Lightning Bolt. I agree that Twin was format warping - I don't believe that means it deserved a ban any more than any card in any Tier 1 deck.
If I were to summarize my read on all this, I would say that the Splinter Twin ban was a "format sculpting" move. It was banned to change the way the format plays, not necessarily to fix an immediate problem (hence the different reads we might get from the same data set). And I'm sure it's clear by now that I'm opposed to this sort of move on principle.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah, infect winning turn 3 occasionally isn't a big deal since it's a small portion of the time and it's easy to hate out without burning a ton of resources to do so. I think the big concern is that it's in constant danger of getting more consistent and dangerous with semi-random and otherwise innocuous printings (like, Become Immense itself is a perfect example here.) It's probably going to be a permanent watch list item just in case it breaks out at some point.
I wouldn't hit it right now just because the metagame is still interesting so probably better not to rock the boat, but it absolutely should go at the slightest pretense when they do need to make a move.
I just consider "this format sucks and is bad" to be an immediate problem, at least for a non-rotating format.
For some reason I had completely discounted sealed. That's actually a fantastic idea!
It lets myself and others help with deck building too if they need it, since the card pools are already set up from the start.
A Serious Man
Member
Team Eureka suspends Anteri.
It seems this was widely know in the Pro community. Of all the reactions from the Pros I saw yesterday, none of them expressed shock. Owen and Efro gleefully crowing about the suspension is a little off-putting though.
It seems this was widely know in the Pro community. Of all the reactions from the Pros I saw yesterday, none of them expressed shock. Owen and Efro gleefully crowing about the suspension is a little off-putting though.
SigmasonicX
Member
There's a getting started section in the OP.
You can have them play Magic Duels. For the paper game, it's better to teach them with decks you've made than for them to play with draft. My recommendation for those decks is:
* Two colors.
* Simple effects with a clear strategy.
* Avoid having too many card types. For example, you could easily get away with not having any artifacts.
* When explaining the rules, just go straight into a practice game and explain as you go along. Play with your hands revealed.
Basically, combo decks are spreading thin after Twin and Bloom got banned. Remember when Mind's Desire and Dragonstorm were decks? Elves? Hypergenesis? I'm not a combo player, but it's still sad to see Wizards adhere to some dumb arbitrary rule like the turn four rule.
Do they know how to play Hearthstone?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Never heard of any but elves of these even before the twin ban and I've seen elves since. Magic Origins really pushed them surprisingly.
charlequin
Banned
Owen's reaction seemed totally reasonable to me; I think it's fair to praise teams for kicking cheaters to the curb and to be angry at someone who's effectively been stealing income from you. Efro's passive-aggressive whining about PotY is pretty obnoxious though.
They were Extended combo decks. They were from a time when Wizards weren't trying to be the fun police.
Yes, the Fun Police who suddenly managed to make a format people liked a lot better "coincidentally" after removing the most oppressive feature of the format?
charlequin
Banned
Elves is still a thing. Hypergenesis is obnoxious as fuck. Mind's Desire was never Modern legal and Dragonstorm somebody could still make a go at.
I honestly can't understand how anyone can be against the turn 4 rule. Legacy and Vintage both rely on zero-cost counters and (in Vintage's case) an elaborate, high-interaction turn-one game to be interesting despite combos that can win on turn 1+. Modern doesn't have any tools to deal with that and the matchups you get without that type of rule in place are dominated by boring double-goldfish bullshit.
Yeah I don't know in what alternate universe nobody ever complained about Extended or Modern when they were coinflip formats full of uninteractive combo decks.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
then what is the connection to the Twin Ban, extended is how many years past?
Funnily my first post in a Magic OT voiced my disdain of Twin
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=178663403&postcount=1375
charlequin
Banned
Studies show the #1 cause of consistent Modern hatred is carrying a torch for a format that died six years ago.
divisionbyzorro
Member
As far as I'm aware, the majority of the "modern sucks" narrative was pushed by pros who didn't like having to play a format they would never have played otherwise for the PT. The majority of players who actually played it on the regular thought it was pretty good. Taking it out of the PT is what quieted that storm.
My point is: the turn four rule is only applicable if the combo in question is reliable and hard to disrupt. Hypergenesis? Okay. Twin? Okay. Elves? Could be acceptable with Glimpse but without GSZ.
Like, I'm pretty sure Seething Song won't suddenly make Mind's Desire or Dragonstorm broken. They weren't broken before. What I'm saying is, Wizards IS trying to be the fun police by limiting our options through reasoning that is completely subjective.
Like, I'm pretty sure Seething Song won't suddenly make Mind's Desire or Dragonstorm broken. They weren't broken before. What I'm saying is, Wizards IS trying to be the fun police by limiting our options through reasoning that is completely subjective.
Quoting myself from 2013: https://kirblar024.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/grand-prix-kc-modern-postmortem/
)
3 years of trying to get SSG and Twin killed! (On the other hand, I loved Pod and was trying to rationalize it staying.
)charlequin
Banned
I think it all goes together, honestly, which is also why I kind of consider Twin and Visions/Sword to be of a piece. Having Modern in the Pro Tour (it turned out) ensured that the format got 100% solved; having Twin in the format ensured that that solution was uninteractive and boring.
Anyway, I'm glad most of us can at least agree that however we got here (and however awful Eldrazi Winter was) the format's in a pretty good spot now.
charlequin
Banned
This is just a weird framing when the vast majority of relevant people you can ask (whether pros or semi-competitive Modern event players) will say that the extended-style combo decks were miserable. I get that there are people who enjoyed playing them but it's not like WotC was moralizing against something most people loved here.
Yeah, if you're gonna do a victory lap on anything, this is a great candidate.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Going back to extended
That's the initial banlist of which many cards have been unbanned since, any among them that'd warrant an unbanning? I'd argue for chrome mox as it puts you down 2 cards but probably only after a SSG ban.
That's the initial banlist of which many cards have been unbanned since, any among them that'd warrant an unbanning? I'd argue for chrome mox as it puts you down 2 cards but probably only after a SSG ban.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that the Twin ban made the format worse or anything. I just don't think it needed to happen, and I think that unnecessary bans erode confidence in the format and are unfair to players who made significant time and monetary investments. I think it was a negative move that shouldn't have happened, but the format did recover.
"We shouldn't ban it because players invested money"
Fuck that shit. Ban what needs to be banned, and feast on their tears while everyone else enjoys a better world.
The idea that they've "just been banning the best deck" is based on idiots not understanding the rationale behind the decisions. Pod didn't get hit until it became a legit issue, and Twin was a matter of them being unable/unwilling to see the true depths of its problems until ripping the bandaid was going to be incredibly painful.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I'd like to see them experiment with a Preordain unbanning.
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