Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues

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Familienoberhauptvogel said:
Going back to extended



That's the initial banlist of which many cards have been unbanned since, any among them that'd warrant an unbanning? I'd argue for chrome mox as it puts you down 2 cards but probably only after a SSG ban.
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I'd argue SFM, if only because I think it's needed in Modern for Equipment to not suck. I'd be fine with a Batterskull ban if it means Mystic is unbanned, because there's a bunch of modern legal equipment synergy cards that could be boosted if she gets unbanned.
 
Infinite Stars said:
I'd argue SFM, if only because I think it's needed in Modern for Equipment to not suck. I'd be fine with a Batterskull ban if it means Mystic is unbanned, because there's a bunch of modern legal equipment synergy cards that could be boosted if she gets unbanned.
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They just printed a second tutor, no?

The cost reduction issue w/ her is the problem, it's way too restrictive for future design space.
 
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Familienoberhauptvogel said:
That's the initial banlist of which many cards have been unbanned since, any among them that'd warrant an unbanning? I'd argue for chrome mox as it puts you down 2 cards but probably only after a SSG ban.
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Out of the current banned list, the only things I'd really even investigate (and I don't feel confident any of these are safe) are Bloodbraid Elf, JTMS, and maybe Stoneforge Mystic? Wescoe has a theory about how they should unban the artifact lands but ban Disciple, which is... interesting...

divisionbyzorro said:
Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that the Twin ban made the format worse or anything. I just don't think it needed to happen, and I think that unnecessary bans erode confidence in the format and are unfair to players who made significant time and monetary investments. I think it was a negative move that shouldn't have happened, but the format did recover.
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Fair!

The Technomancer said:
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this is incredible
 
charlequin said:
Out of the current banned list, the only things I'd really even investigate (and I don't feel confident any of these are safe) are Bloodbraid Elf, JTMS, and maybe Stoneforge Mystic? Wescoe has a theory about how they should unban the artifact lands but ban Disciple, which is... interesting...
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No way, I play that in kitchentable affinity w/o ravagers and it's busted. The consistency of turn 1 2 + 1 mana is insane. You won't need glimmervoid to cast galvanic blast or heck even Tezzeret.
 
charlequin said:
Out of the current banned list, the only things I'd really even investigate (and I don't feel confident any of these are safe) are Bloodbraid Elf, JTMS, and maybe Stoneforge Mystic? Wescoe has a theory about how they should unban the artifact lands but ban Disciple, which is... interesting...
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Unbanning the artifact lands is a recipe for disaster. FOV has already pointed out some of the problems.
 
charlequin said:
This is just a weird framing when the vast majority of relevant people you can ask (whether pros or semi-competitive Modern event players) will say that the extended-style combo decks were miserable. I get that there are people who enjoyed playing them but it's not like WotC was moralizing against something most people loved here.
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I'm really questioning whether those people ever played Mind's Desire pre-Modern. Unlike say Hypergenesis/Living Dead or Scapeshift, Mind's Desire isn't a vomit style of combo deck with almost zero risks. I've seen and played against very good players, with a much better understanding of the game than I do, who struggled to find the right line of play. It's because Mind's Desire is intrinsically random. They have to think long and hard whether it's worth to go for it or wait and draw an extra card so that they might increase the storm count. And because the deck played Invasion sac lands, if you go for it, it's do or die.

That's the type of combo deck that is sorely missing in Modern; the risk and reward combo strat. Twin was never this type of deck because it was more of a control deck with a combo finish. Same with Pod. The only strats who come close are Pyromancer's Ascension Storm and Ad Nauseum. I don't really have any stakes in this as I never really played these decks. Precisely because of how difficult they were to successfully operate, but I respect the players who did play these decks a hell of a lot. Maybe some people were annoyed how long it took to lose, but I always found it super impressive.
 
SigmasonicX said:
There's a getting started section in the OP.

You can have them play Magic Duels. For the paper game, it's better to teach them with decks you've made than for them to play with draft. My recommendation for those decks is:
* Two colors.
* Simple effects with a clear strategy.
* Avoid having too many card types. For example, you could easily get away with not having any artifacts.
* When explaining the rules, just go straight into a practice game and explain as you go along. Play with your hands revealed.
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Thanks.

I like this idea especially for the first game or two, if only to just to get turn structure down.
 
Firemind said:
I'm really questioning whether those people ever played Mind's Desire pre-Modern.
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They probably haven't because very few people ever played that deck, and there isn't a good analogous deck to propose instead specifically because that type of combo deck isn't really something that exists in many other forms.
 
kirblar said:
"We shouldn't ban it because players invested money"

Fuck that shit. Ban what needs to be banned, and feast on their tears while everyone else enjoys a better world.

The idea that they've "just been banning the best deck" is based on idiots not understanding the rationale behind the decisions. Pod didn't get hit until it became a legit issue, and Twin was a matter of them being unable/unwilling to see the true depths of its problems until ripping the bandaid was going to be incredibly painful.
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Whoa there tiger. Take a chill pill.

First of all, that's not at all what I said. Bans are painful for a multitude of reasons - player investment is just one of them. You shouldn't put the player base through that unless absolutely necessary. My argument continues to be that Splinter Twin didn't need to be banned based on empirical evidence, and that it was only banned because the powers that be wanted to reshape the format into something else. You clearly agree with the move they were trying to make - I dislike it because not only do I believe that Twin wasn't a "problem," it was also a fixture of the format and didn't break a single "rule" that had been applied to previous bannings. It was such an obviously safe investment (which I also believe contributed to its reputation as the go-to deck). So banning it incurred a huge penalty from a player confidence standpoint, in addition to the usual pain.

I agree that the majority of the bans in the past 3-5 years were predictable and understandable, but reputation is important, and that's the reputation Modern has. By timing major shakeups to the PT (including postponing the incredibly necessary hit to the Amulet Bloom decks), that reputation wasn't even all that far off from the truth. In that regard, killing the Modern PT was huge for restoring confidence.
 
kirblar said:
They just printed a second tutor, no?

The cost reduction issue w/ her is the problem, it's way too restrictive for future design space.
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The cost reduction is an issue, but Wizards hasn't been pushing high cost equipment in a long time. Looking on Gatherer, the highest cost equipment ever is Elbrus, the Binding Blade. Wizards hasn't exactly been pushing equipment above 3CMC(By my count, Modern has 175 Equipment under 3 CMC vs 31 above it). Of course, that's just casting cost, and most of the ones above 3 CMC that don't have Living Weapon have high equip costs.

The worst offenders with Stoneforge are Elbrus and Batterskull IMO, and the lack of equipment above 3CMC in recent years makes me think that it's not this big area of design space.
 
Once you get the format into a healthy state, you won't need to make major changes except in reaction to new shit. (Like the Eye ban.)

Modern hadn't been in that form EVER, and their reluctance to rip the band aid off specific problem cards was the reason why.
 
charlequin said:
whiny nerds on reddit bitching that emrakul was too easy to figure out give me life
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the fuck? do these people not understand what

Ulamog's set is BFZ, Kozilek's set is OGW, oh shit we were gonna have a third set but now are doing a two block cycle shit what do we do

OH. Yeah. Write a narrative that's longer that has OH HEY

Emrakul's set is EDM
 
The idea that banning problematic cards is going to erode confidence is the format doesn't seem all that meritorious based on everyone I know that plays Modern. Everyone I know just beats off to the idea of getting to play some other deck.
 
"emrakul is too obvious," says the 27-times-upvoted post in the same thread as people explaining why everyone else is an idiot who doesn't understand that this is the phyrexians
 
Angry Grimace said:
The idea that banning problematic cards is going to erode confidence is the format doesn't seem all that meritorious based on everyone I know that plays Modern. Everyone I know just beats off to the idea of getting to play some other deck.
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I think eventually it'd be a problem for the guy who puts together a $1000 deck for fnm and sees the namesake banned. Everybody I know plays modern but we're degenerates who drive 7 hours for GPs so possibly being forced to change decks once a year isn't going to do much.

I know my interest in having a large collection has kind of died over the past couple years though. Between bannings and reprints it's just not worth it to own more cards than the main deck I'm using for each format.
 
I'm playing the Nahiri deck in Modern and I took out the Cryptic Commands and put Goblin Dark-Dwellers in.

I mean, playing creatively is fun, but playing a GDD off, flashing back Ancestral Vision, then casting it again next turn for Helix or another Vision is pretty good. Someone just Slaughter Games'd my Emrakul so I pulled up the GDD with a Bolt and it was still a pretty good play.

ironmang said:
I think eventually it'd be a problem for the guy who puts together a $1000 deck for fnm and sees the namesake banned. Everybody I know plays modern but we're degenerates who drive 7 hours for GPs so possibly being forced to change decks once a year isn't going to do much.

I know my interest in having a large collection has kind of died over the past couple years though. Between bannings and reprints it's just not worth it to own more cards than the main deck I'm using for each format.
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This is anecdotal evidence obviously, but I can show you my copies of Splinter Twin, that was literally me in this thread who was the Twin player when the card got banned. I mean, big deal, trade the rest of the cards and play something else *shrug*
 
As an aside, I kind of feel like Emrakul is a fucken dumb card. Like, why is there a card that doesn't have the Phage clause that does 15 damage, can't be interacted with and makes you sac 6 permanents?
 
Angry Grimace said:
I'm playing the Nahiri deck in Modern and I took out the Cryptic Commands and put Goblin Dark-Dwellers in.

I mean, playing creatively is fun, but playing a GDD off, flashing back Ancestral Vision, then casting it again next turn for Helix or another Vision is pretty good. Someone just Slaughter Games'd my Emrakul so I pulled up the GDD with a Bolt and it was still a pretty good play.
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I was thinking about that, do you put boom busts into your sideboard?
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
I was thinking about that, do you put boom busts into your sideboard?
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Nope. I didn't think I needed to get more cute than just drawing 3 cards when he shows up, or getting a Helix or Bolt or Path, etc.

The problem I was having is that I straight up don't like Cryptic Command in the deck. Getting to UUU isn't necessarily really easy, especially if you want to have board options like Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict.
 
Angry Grimace said:
Nope. I didn't think I needed to get more cute than just drawing 3 cards when he shows up, or getting a Helix or Bolt or Path, etc.

The problem I was having is that I straight up don't like Cryptic Command in the deck. Getting to UUU isn't necessarily really easy, especially if you want to have board options like Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict.
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I always strain manabases to put in cryptics, what do you have in store for the tron matchup it can be tough from my experience.

I've been experimenting with a transformative Mentor sideboard and the mirror match was pretty favourable. Their spot removal doesn't trade so well with prowess tokens.
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
I always strain manabases to put in cryptics, what do you have in store for the tron matchup it can be tough from my experience.

I've been experimenting with a transformative Mentor sideboard and the mirror match was pretty favourable. Their spot removal doesn't trade so well with prowess tokens.
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Stony Silence and Crumble, mostly.
 
EMA box at FaceToFace Games for the low low price of 399 CAN.

Think I'll just be watching singles prices :)

EDIT: Is it crazy to hope Phyrexian Altar is in Commander 2016?
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
The 1 of crumble has been a bit rare to find in games and even then almost too slow. I vastly preferred the Fulminator mage matchup with Grixis I tried before that.
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I just don't think its worth putting in a ton of cards to shore up a bad matchup anyways. The meta is too diverse to worry about specific archetypes out of broad strokes (e.g. Timely Reinforcements for fast aggro decks)
 
I think now the format is somewhat better off without Twin. UWR is trying to find it's ground and the decks are indeed more diverse and more fun to play with. It's only that control still has to put it's mark in and maybe it needs a new trick for that in an upcoming set.

One thing that was bad though about the ban was the timing. It was done before the release of a set that brought one of the most broken Modern decks in recent history. Twin was the only thing that could keep Eldrazi in check easily and because it wasn't at the PT we got like 6/8 Top 8 that were Eldrazi. With both of them gone more balance has been brought in however, so they at least fixed that.

Angry Grimace said:
I'm playing the Nahiri deck in Modern and I took out the Cryptic Commands and put Goblin Dark-Dwellers in.

I mean, playing creatively is fun, but playing a GDD off, flashing back Ancestral Vision, then casting it again next turn for Helix or another Vision is pretty good. Someone just Slaughter Games'd my Emrakul so I pulled up the GDD with a Bolt and it was still a pretty good play.
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Got some other playtesting to share and do you mind sharing your whole build? I'm currently building my UWR deck (which is almost finished) and will compete in more competitive tournaments within a month. I feel like the Nahiri combo is too easily stopped and without it it's sometimes a struggle to finish of your opponent before they start doing crazy things.
 
I feel like I must have offended someone because I get flooded *constantly* playing a 23 land deck with 4 Nahiri in it. Like every single time I use her +2, I discard a land, draw a land. Bad man feels.
 
I forgot about that gif. Remind me to include both in the next OT.

EDIT: More on skulk not becoming evergreen
herowithoutacause asked: May I ask why you feel Skulk won't become evergreen? I thought it'd be an obvious shoo-in for blue/black's combat keyword.

It has a few problems. The design space is narrower than we originally thought. It proved to be harder to process than we first thought. And developmentally, it’s a touch trickier than we thought.

We walked into it optimistic that we found out Blue/Black mechanic but so far it’s not working out as well as we hoped. Note I’m talking about evergreen status. It’s a fine normal mechanic.
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I wonder if they'll make the new Emraku a15/15 again or make itl a 13/13. It still leaves her as the biggest Eldrazi titan, but also fits with the 13-theme from Innistrad.
 
Yeef said:
I wonder if they'll make the new Emraku a15/15 again or make itl a 13/13. It still leaves her as the biggest Eldrazi titan, but also fits with the 13-theme from Innistrad.
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This would not shock me. Especially since I feel like Innistrad's days are numbered, it would be a fitting send off if so.
 
Harmonize is a better P1P1 than Dack right? It's safer, more guaranteed advantage and in a color I like better than blue or red in the set.

I guess the real question is between Harmonize or FoF. FoF is better but blue is worse.
 
Release weekend/week after release weekend tends to be the best pickup time for these set online. Lots of people rushing to Ebay and such w/ singles.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";205190285]Harmonize is a better P1P1 than Dack right? It's safer, more guaranteed advantage and in a color I like better than blue or red in the set.

I guess the real question is between Harmonize or FoF. FoF is better but blue is worse.[/QUOTE]

...in what?
 
Yeef said:
I wonder if they'll make the new Emraku a15/15 again or make itl a 13/13. It still leaves her as the biggest Eldrazi titan, but also fits with the 13-theme from Innistrad.
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I think it depends on what form we get Emrakul. If it's just one card, we're probably getting a 13/13. If that Giant End Bringer was a design idea that was accidentally found, then she's going to be fricking massive to reward the payoff for getting her out.
 
Yeah I'm picking my box up on the 10th and buying the singles the following week, I don't think the prices will get better if wait.
 
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