Support NeoGAF

[Maledict]

I don't get the 'investigate a puzzle' theme at all, or Maro's 'there's a secret here, go to the pre-release and find out!'. Maybe I'm stupid, but before we'd seen a single card or poster I assumed Emrakyl was on Innistrad in some way. We *just* had the set where two out of three EldraI were dealt with and the third was missing - it seemed painfully obvious that Innistrad would deal with her.

I honestly don't get how there can be any surprise here at all. Maybe had they left it a few years it would have worked, but as it is having a set where the final remaining evil is missing and then the next set dealing with a 'mysterious evil no-one knows about!' Just seems way too on the nose.

 

[HK-47]

I don't get the 'investigate a puzzle' theme at all, or Maro's 'there's a secret here, go to the pre-release and find out!'. Maybe I'm stupid, but before we'd seen a single card or poster I assumed Emrakyl was on Innistrad in some way. We *just* had the set where two out of three EldraI were dealt with and the third was missing - it seemed painfully obvious that Innistrad would deal with her.

I honestly don't get how there can be any surprise here at all. Maybe had they left it a few years it would have worked, but as it is having a set where the final remaining evil is missing and then the next set dealing with a 'mysterious evil no-one knows about!' Just seems way too on the nose.

These are the people that think Jace is a compelling character.

 

[Angry Grimace]

FWIW the deck I'm winning most against random testers is

Deck: Shadows Esper Dragons

//Lands
1 Port Town
4 Choked Estuary
4 Evolving Wilds
5 Island
1 Plains
3 Prairie Stream
3 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
2 Swamp

//Spells
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Languish
3 Painful Truths
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Void Shatter

//Creatures
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

//Sideboard
2 Ruinous Path
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Ojutai's Command
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Clash of Wills
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Icefall Regent
1 Transgress the Mind

Display deck statistics

But that's because basically everything other than it and Bant Company (which I also won pretty much all the time with when I was using it) are just random brews.

 

[traveler]

I will say Avacyn's indestructible clause feels pretty irrelevant against removal right now. All the good stuff exiles, sacrifices, or -X/-Xs.

Edit: How are you finding 3 color manabases? Worth it? Probably too cautious to just go straight to 2 color.

 

[kirblar]

I don't get the 'investigate a puzzle' theme at all, or Maro's 'there's a secret here, go to the pre-release and find out!'. Maybe I'm stupid, but before we'd seen a single card or poster I assumed Emrakyl was on Innistrad in some way. We *just* had the set where two out of three EldraI were dealt with and the third was missing - it seemed painfully obvious that Innistrad would deal with her.

I honestly don't get how there can be any surprise here at all. Maybe had they left it a few years it would have worked, but as it is having a set where the final remaining evil is missing and then the next set dealing with a 'mysterious evil no-one knows about!' Just seems way too on the nose.

A lot of people are really fucking stupid.

And I don't mean R&D.

 

[Santiako]

There's also a lot of people in denial who still think it's Marit Lage or some other garbage.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

FWIW the deck I'm winning most against random testers is

Deck: Shadows Esper Dragons

//Lands
1 Port Town
4 Choked Estuary
4 Evolving Wilds
5 Island
1 Plains
3 Prairie Stream
3 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
2 Swamp

//Spells
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Dragonlord's Prerogative
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Languish
3 Painful Truths
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Void Shatter

//Creatures
4 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

//Sideboard
2 Ruinous Path
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Ojutai's Command
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Clash of Wills
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Icefall Regent
1 Transgress the Mind

Display deck statistics

But that's because basically everything other than it and Bant Company (which I also won pretty much all the time with when I was using it) are just random brews.

I'd like to build that deck but why not more Sorins in exchange for Silumgars? He can get rid of a PW for the same CMC. Wonder if you could make an esper superfriends list. Mirrorpool could copy Silumgar once the target is taking care of or copy a draw spell

 

[traveler]

I'd like to build that deck but why not more Sorins in exchange for Silumgars? He can get rid of a PW for the same CMC. Wonder if you could make an esper superfriends list.

You haven't lived till you've stolen a +'d Chandra off red eldrazi and -5'd her to death to wipe all their thought knots and smashers.

Granted, if you've somehow reached this situation anyways, you're probably dead.

 

[OnPoint]

There's also a lot of people in denial who still think it's Marit Lage or some other garbage.

If that's in reference to conversation here, I want to point out that I was playing devil's advocate during that discussion, and am firmly on Team ItsErmie.

 

[Santiako]

If that's in reference to conversation here, I want to point out that I was playing devil's advocate during that discussion, and am firmly on Team ItsErmie.

No, not you, I was thinking of reddit mostly who is largely in denial.

 

[Haines]

What do you guys think of these cards in limited

This is a rare slot. 6 mana might be expensive at sorcery speed in what seems like a faster limited but you get 4 dudes so more per mana

This guy comes out sooner and at instant speed. Instants can let your opponent switch his wolves tho.

 

[siddx]

What do you guys think of these cards in limited

Creatures that let you ping a player or creature on death are incredibly useful. Whether killing a 2/2 it just blocked, killing off an annoying 1 toughness that is hiding and relying on effects, getting that last point of damage on a fatty or player, or just making your opponent have to over think his strategy.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Every single time I saw these cards cast in the LRR Pre-pre-release they were absurdly good.

 

[A Serious Man]

BW definitely has one of the strongest bases. I've been testing a BW tokens brew and my win rate is probably at least 70%. Would really like to mess around with Esper but I haven't cooked anything up yet.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Every single time I saw these cards cast in the LRR Pre-pre-release they were absurdly good.

Especially with the pinger angel out made all of them effectively 3/3s

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/draws-and-concessions-a-better-alternative/

BBD just wrote a follow up article on the collusion issue this time he proposes making it illegal, which I still think is enforceable

 

[Haines]

Sounds like you guys think they are both very playable. I have a hard time analyzing card types I haven't used yet and just wasn't sure about the cost but I absolutely love the flexibility. Feels like they take a lil more skill and finesse to get the most out of them.

I'm looking forward to lsv limited review today. I find this set really interesting and he k ows how to sort the nonsense outon a card.

 

[ultron87]

Especially with the pinger angel out made all of them effectively 3/3s

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/draws-and-concessions-a-better-alternative/

BBD just wrote a follow up article on the collusion issue this time he proposes making it illegal, which I still think is enforceable

He also followed up with some additional comments on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/notes/bria...ssions-a-better-alternative/10153937139505259

One point that makes me much more okay with the discussion is agreeing this should only even be considered at Professional level events (Ie Pro Tour and GP Day 2). It'd be ridiculous at local store events or even at stuff as "serious" as Day 1 at a GP. IE at FNM "Oh, my friends are getting beers, I'm 2-2 anyway, I concede." DISQUALIFIED.

At those higher events I'd still be really nervous to implement a system where it is up to a judge to determine whether a player is playing to their fullest and not making mistakes on purpose. They don't know the deck or each player's style or anything about the match up. Maybe something that looks like a mistake is playing around something the judge just isn't thinking of. But the wider you make the threshold for the judge determining this stuff, the easier it becomes to actually intentionally lose with sub optimal plays. The Reddit firestorm that would happen the first time some pro player gets DQed for this offense but was actually just tired and made a mistake or was playing around X would be insane. And then what happens if you actually only need a draw and one or both players want that outcome and just play incredibly conservatively? Is playing to ensure you don't lose (but not necessarily moving towards winning) cheating?

The idea of making it against the rules, which would make most people not do it no matter how you actually implement that, is a good one. I think the implementation is just incredibly tricky.

 

[Yeef]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/draws-and-concessions-a-better-alternative/

BBD just wrote a follow up article on the collusion issue this time he proposes making it illegal, which I still think is enforceable

Collusion is already against the rules. He was to make intention draws and intention concedes against the rules, which is completely untenable.

 

[charlequin]

I don't get the 'investigate a puzzle' theme at all, or Maro's 'there's a secret here, go to the pre-release and find out!'. Maybe I'm stupid, but before we'd seen a single card or poster I assumed Emrakyl was on Innistrad in some way. We *just* had the set where two out of three EldraI were dealt with and the third was missing - it seemed painfully obvious that Innistrad would deal with her.

I honestly don't get how there can be any surprise here at all. Maybe had they left it a few years it would have worked, but as it is having a set where the final remaining evil is missing and then the next set dealing with a 'mysterious evil no-one knows about!' Just seems way too on the nose.

One, people only started talking about Emrakul when they rolled out the initial part of the marketing campaign with the first "hints" intended to set it up so I'm not particularly inclined to credit people on this "oh well it was obvious instantly" thing, and two, look at any major forum of discussion for MTG (Twitter, Reddit, etc.) and look at what percentage of the people participating there are insistent Emrakul isn't involved.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/draws-and-concessions-a-better-alternative/

BBD just wrote a follow up article on the collusion issue this time he proposes making it illegal, which I still think is enforceable

He keeps making these comparisons to sports, but the big difference he's not accounting for is that in any significantly competitive sport, every game/match is spectated and referreed (meaning there are guaranteed to be people who can make educated calls on any collusion-like behavior) while no Magic tournament comes close to that.

 

[robosllim]

Green Sun's Zenith

I think you may have misread Traverse the Ulvenwald...

 

[kirblar]

One, people only started talking about Emrakul when they rolled out the initial part of the marketing campaign with the first "hints" intended to set it up so I'm not particularly inclined to credit people on this "oh well it was obvious instantly" thing, and two, look at any major forum of discussion for MTG (Twitter, Reddit, etc.) and look at what percentage of the people participating there are insistent Emrakul isn't involved

The instant the art book description released in late Nov/early december, both Emrakul and "Emrakul is in the Moon" became obvious.

 

[red13th]

What do you guys think of these cards in limited

This is a rare slot. 6 mana might be expensive at sorcery speed in what seems like a faster limited but you get 4 dudes so more per mana

This guy comes out sooner and at instant speed. Instants can let your opponent switch his wolves tho.

They're both by Wayne England

 

[divisionbyzorro]

He keeps making these comparisons to sports, but the big difference he's not accounting for is that in any significantly competitive sport, every game/match is spectated and referreed (meaning there are guaranteed to be people who can make educated calls on any collusion-like behavior) while no Magic tournament comes close to that.

The referees are not the incentive to play hard in meaningless games - the fans are. The reason you still try to win even when losing might be an advantage (e.g., a higher draft pick) is that you're also trying to sell a product to your fans. If you deliberately tank games, you might end up losing out on ticket sales, merchandise, etc. Of course, even then there are situations where the EV of a better draft could still outweigh the value of losing fan support, such as when there is a high-value, highly popular player in the draft (this is why the NBA runs a lottery system for the draft).

Which gets to the point - the only way to discourage this behavior in Magic players is to give them a greater incentive to play than to ID or scoop. They've started to do this by setting play/draw based on the seeding for Top 8, but they haven't extended any sort of benefits to players who are just playing for Top 8 instead of guaranteeing a spot in the Top 8. This is likely to be a very difficult thing to do with the limited prize pools that most tournaments have, but it's the only effective way to do it - you have to make players want to play, because you're never going to be able to force them to play.

I think you may have misread Traverse the Ulvenwald...

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/traversetheulvenwald.html

It lets you get any creature from your deck. You can then cast the creature. It's very similar to GSZ in that it represents any creature in your deck with an additional green mana in the mana cost.

EDIT: Wow. WotC is dropping the "prerelease tax" from their pre-release events on MTGO. You'll no longer have to pay additional money for the privilege of playing with the new set on the opening weekend on MTGO.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/article...agic-online-prereleases-reimagined-2016-03-29

You still can't enter with packs (which is a bummer).

 

[aidan]

It lets you get any creature from your deck. You can then cast the creature. It's very similar to GSZ in that it represents any creature in your deck with an additional green mana in the mana cost.

There's a big difference between being able to put any (green) creature in your deck onto the battlefield at instant speed for one additional mana, and being able to conditionally tutor one into your hand at sorcery speed. It's good, but it's not GSZ.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

There's a big difference between being able to put any (green) creature in your deck onto the battlefield at instant speed for one additional mana, and being able to conditionally tutor one into your hand at sorcery speed. It's good, but it's not GSZ.

GSZ is not an instant. You're crossing it up with Chord of Calling.

Traverse the Ulvenwald is WotC playing with a "fair" Green Sun's Zenith that can't be used to accelerate your mana in the early turns (by getting Dryad Arbor).

 

[red13th]

I think it's pretty clear it's not GSZ since it requires Delirium, but when Delirium is on I agree it's not that different from GSZ.

 

[A Serious Man]

EDIT: Wow. WotC is dropping the "prerelease tax" from their pre-release events on MTGO. You'll no longer have to pay additional money for the privilege of playing with the new set on the opening weekend on MTGO.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/article...agic-online-prereleases-reimagined-2016-03-29

You still can't enter with packs (which is a bummer).

And Prerelease Sealed Leagues? With an extra rare/mythic? All of these changes are good.

 

[robosllim]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/traversetheulvenwald.html

It lets you get any creature from your deck. You can then cast the creature. It's very similar to GSZ in that it represents any creature in your deck with an additional green mana in the mana cost.

Yep, I guess I need to think outside the box a bit...

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'd like to build that deck but why not more Sorins in exchange for Silumgars? He can get rid of a PW for the same CMC. Wonder if you could make an esper superfriends list. Mirrorpool could copy Silumgar once the target is taking care of or copy a draw spell

You actually want lifegain from Foul-Tongue and the Silumgar's Scorn hard-counter.

 

[A Serious Man]

Pretty spicy deck from reddit:

4 Loam Dryad
4 Blisterpod
1 Deathcap Cultivator
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Scion Summoner
4 Catacomb Sifter
2 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cryptolith Rite
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Zendikar Resurgent

9 Forest
1 Foundry of the Consuls
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Westvale Abbey

SB:
2 Aerial Volley
3 Clip Wings
2 Collected Company
4 Deathmist Raptor
2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Reclaiming Vines

Brutally fast but also very easy to sideboard against. Exile effects (or Clip Wings) take care of Ormendahl and Languish is very hard to come back from. On the plus side, turn four Ormendahl is hard for a lot of decks to deal with and the deck goes wide very quickly, a single Nissa -2 can win you the game. It's pretty fun and more consistent than it looks but I feel overall that most of the BW archetypes are still better.

 

[y2dvd]

+

is legit. A lot of the other mill cards in the set are too slow (Startled Awake is atrocious, Fleeting Memories requires to much support and mana to be worthwhile) but that combo can kill on turn six as long as it stays on the board for a couple turns. Another fun fact? Creation is a horror so Thing in the Ice doesn't bounce it when it flips. I'm running these plus Jace and a large mix of draw and permission. It's definitely more consistent and powerful than the old Tutelage shell.

I don't think Forgotten Creation was spoiled when I posted my mill deck awhile ago. Here are two decks I revised from existing shells to include Forgotten Creation and Startled Awaken.

UW Mill
Creatures 3
3 x Forgotten Creation

Spells 32
4 x Planar Outburst
4 x Ugin's Insight
2 x Negate
3 x Startled Awake
2 x Quarantine Field
1 x Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 x Silkwrap
4 x Sphinx's Tutelage
1 x Starfield of Nyx
3 x Suppression Bonds
4 x Stasis Snare

Lands 25
4 x Blighted Cataract
4 x Port Town
4 x Prairie Stream
5 x Island
8 x Plains

UR Mill
Creatures 8
4 x Forgotten Creation
4 x Jace, Vryn

Spells 27
4 x Startled Awake
3 x Crush of Tentacles
4 x Fiery Impulse
3 x Magmatic Insight
3 x Lightning Axe
2 x Oath of Jace
4 x Sphinx's Tutelage
4 x Chandra, Flamecaller

Lands 25
2 x Blighted Cataract
4 x Shivan Reef
4 x Wandering Fumarole
6 x Island
5 x Mountain
4 x Highland Lake


You may be right that Startled Awake will be absolutely terrible, but I wanna try it out lol. The only thing I'm iffy about with Forgotten Creation is that it doesn't draw any extra cards. Still, FC with Tutelage sounds too fun not to try.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

God I hate MTGO, instead of blocking and reducing 1 damage to myself with my defender I tapped it and reduced 1 damage to the creature I can't block anymore with it.

Lost me the game right there and I had no time to left to win the next 2 games. My opponent was at 1 life...

At least I got a loam and a doubling season so I can draft once more but god damn it I think my deck was janky but sweet.

 

[Giant Panda]

Is Kalitas going to hold value after he rotates? I'll feel less bad about buying him if he'll hold value.

 

[Firemind]

God I hate MTGO, instead of blocking and reducing 1 damage to myself with my defender I tapped it and reduced 1 damage to the creature I can't block anymore with it.

How did you manage to do that?

Also holy crap you weren't kidding about janky. :lol

 

[Insaniac]

Is Kalitas going to hold value after he rotates? I'll feel less bad about buying him if he'll hold value.

An efficient beater that keeps creatures from hitting graveyard and has synergy with vampires AND zombies? Of course he'll be good in the next set

 

[Yeef]

An efficient beater that keeps creatures from hitting graveyard and has synergy with vampires AND zombies? Of course he'll be good in the next set

He's talking about after he leaves standard. Basically asking where the Modern metagame will be in a year or so. It's hard to say, but I don't think he's amazing in any current deck. He does avoid bolt and can potentially avoid Dismember, which makes him a bit more playable in general.

As a tangent, that's got me thinking about Kaladesh. We basically already know what WUR and G look like on that plane from Chandra's origin story and cards in origins, but not really what black looks like. Things like Zombies and Vampires feel out of place there, what what we've seen so far.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

How did you manage to do that?

Also holy crap you weren't kidding about janky. :lol

I didn't say I was using MTGO correctly. It worked, slowly, very slowly.

Wouldn't Kalitas be good in Jund, he could land turn 3 and get a Zombie right away and if he sticks he's just so much value.

 

[WanderingWind]

It's impossible at this point to determine what - if any - play Kalitas will see post BFZ rotation. Too many factors. He is seeing some fringe play, but that happens with a lot of new cards that end up fizzling out. Anybody telling you for sure what to do with a non-broken new card so far out is just trying to hear themselves speak.

Personally, I got me a playset for Standard, because I feel like he'll be great in a deck soon.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Is Kalitas going to hold value after he rotates? I'll feel less bad about buying him if he'll hold value.

I don't think he's likely at all to dip much. He's generically good and has a semi-relevant hosing effect. He could end up as a pure sideboard card (that's what he does now due to Rally), but I would be surprised if he doesn't at least show up there and retain some value.

 

[Giant Panda]

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll bite the bullet and get some because he goes into any of the decks I want to make, like BW Value, Vampires, and Zombies.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Pretty spicy deck from reddit:




Brutally fast but also very easy to sideboard against. Exile effects (or Clip Wings) take care of Ormendahl and Languish is very hard to come back from. On the plus side, turn four Ormendahl is hard for a lot of decks to deal with and the deck goes wide very quickly, a single Nissa -2 can win you the game. It's pretty fun and more consistent than it looks but I feel overall that most of the BW archetypes are still better.

You're on the MTGO beta right? What's your name? I just played a guy playing this and got owned with some random brew I made, but then played the same guy again with Dragon Control.

 

[Ashodin]

Anyone down to test my deck on Cockatrice? Ashodin is my name on the server.

BTW I applied for the MTGO beta but how long does it take to get in?

 

[Insaniac]

He's talking about after he leaves standard. Basically asking where the Modern metagame will be in a year or so. It's hard to say, but I don't think he's amazing in any current deck. He does avoid bolt and can potentially avoid Dismember, which makes him a bit more playable in general.

As a tangent, that's got me thinking about Kaladesh. We basically already know what WUR and G look like on that plane from Chandra's origin story and cards in origins, but not really what black looks like. Things like Zombies and Vampires feel out of place there, what what we've seen so far.

oh whoops, reading ftw

 

[Infinite Stars]

As a tangent, that's got me thinking about Kaladesh. We basically already know what WUR and G look like on that plane from Chandra's origin story and cards in origins, but not really what black looks like. Things like Zombies and Vampires feel out of place there, what what we've seen so far.

I could see black being paired heavily with Green. I mean, we know that Innistrad is defined by Ally color tribes/groups, so I could see Kaladesh being enemy focused.

UR-Thopter Craftsmen
UG-Healers/Craftsmen who add the improvements they make into creatures. Like using Ornithopter parts to help fix an animal's wings. They'd also maybe be farmers
GB-Those who reject the Articer's advancements and are shunned by society for it.
WR-Police/Anti-Pyromancers like the guy who killed Chandra's parents
WB-Government/Religious Hierarchs

I mean, with Kaladesh being based on India they could have a pseudo-caste system? WB at the top, followed by WR, followed by UR, Followed by UG, Followed by GB to mirror the Indian castes.

 

[SigmasonicX]

As a tangent, that's got me thinking about Kaladesh. We basically already know what WUR and G look like on that plane from Chandra's origin story and cards in origins, but not really what black looks like. Things like Zombies and Vampires feel out of place there, what what we've seen so far.

We could probably see nagas and rakshasas (cat demons) make a comeback, in addition to the typical horrors and spirits. For humans, you can have capitalists and Mirrodin-style guys that care about artifacts.

 

[Firemind]

Why is Grixis never open?

 

[bigkrev]

Why is Grixis never open?

Just wait for INN flashback drafts where 8 people will be fighting over the Spider Spawning deck in every draft.

 

[Ashodin]

THE NET

Savin' my ass from here to Timbuktu

Just had some great games with Giant Panda, I went 2-1. Stone Haven Outfitter is a goddamn draw beast engine

Here's the full 75

Instead of Nahiri's Machinations I'm thinking about Always Watching. +1/+1 and vigilance for the whole team is no joke

 

[Ashodin]

I could see black being paired heavily with Green. I mean, we know that Innistrad is defined by Ally color tribes/groups, so I could see Kaladesh being enemy focused.

UR-Thopter Craftsmen
UG-Healers/Craftsmen who add the improvements they make into creatures. Like using Ornithopter parts to help fix an animal's wings. They'd also maybe be farmers
GB-Those who reject the Articer's advancements and are shunned by society for it.
WR-Police/Anti-Pyromancers like the guy who killed Chandra's parents
WB-Government/Religious Hierarchs

I mean, with Kaladesh being based on India they could have a pseudo-caste system? WB at the top, followed by WR, followed by UR, Followed by UG, Followed by GB to mirror the Indian castes.

Caste system would be neat. Would help separate the plane from Ravnica (where each guild fits neatly into its role)

 

[G.ZZZ]

Nahiri is pretty real.