Agreed. It feels oppressive.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
- Status
Agreed. It feels oppressive.
The idea that Bant Company is a new deck is silly- it's just Rally minus Rally, and Rally would have been banned without a rotation.
bizzarewars
Banned
That's good to hear. Khans was definitely one of my favorite sets to draft.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm on the autumnal gloom hype train. It flips at end of combat, which is fucking impressive. Gather the Pack is pretty much getting you there.
Is my current list. Engulf the Shore is an amazing boardwipe, and putting all of Bant Company's trix back in the box is backbreaking.
Is my current list. Engulf the Shore is an amazing boardwipe, and putting all of Bant Company's trix back in the box is backbreaking.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Just joined a prerelease sealed.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Just joined a prerelease sealed.
and no other playables in either colour?
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
Pretty much.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm on the autumnal gloom hype train. It flips at end of combat, which is fucking impressive. Gather the Pack is pretty much getting you there.
Is my current list. Engulf the Shore is an amazing boardwipe, and putting all of Bant Company's trix back in the box is backbreaking.
I'm off the autumnal gloom hype train. I tested vs the Mono White that won the Invitational and lost 3 sets 6 straight games with the gloom build but won 3 sets 6-1 in games using the regular eldrazi version. The extra removal instead of the synergy slots and the bigger creatures is a huge deal. Deathmist sucks when your opponent has a bunch of 3-power first strikers and Gloom is basically game over if it doesn't flip on turn 3.
Scavenger might not be terrible, though.
SigmasonicX
Member
Strong enter the battlefield effects on creatures have appeared with greater frequency for the past several years due to the "dies to removal" issue, but it seems like they have become a big enough issue that I think there should be ways for colors besides blue to handle them. For example, red could have something like this:
False Summoning - 2R
Instant
The next time one or more creatures enter the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, they enter the battlefield under your control instead until the end of your next turn.
This isn't the perfect counter to Collected Company, since the opponent can select no creatures, but it's still good for a hardcasted Reflector Mage.
White could have a more blunt effect like this:
Dictate of Rest - 1W
Instant
Creatures entering the battlefield do not cause abilities to trigger this turn.
Draw a card.
False Summoning - 2R
Instant
The next time one or more creatures enter the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, they enter the battlefield under your control instead until the end of your next turn.
This isn't the perfect counter to Collected Company, since the opponent can select no creatures, but it's still good for a hardcasted Reflector Mage.
White could have a more blunt effect like this:
Dictate of Rest - 1W
Instant
Creatures entering the battlefield do not cause abilities to trigger this turn.
Draw a card.
A Serious Man
Member
Eh, we'll see how the PT goes. Bant Company was probably the #2 deck before rotation and it didn't lose much. I still feel like the format is largely unexplored and the new decks certainly haven't been tuned as well as CoCo has. Every sb will be aimed directly at CoCo so if it dominates the PT, that's when I'll get worried.
Infinite Stars
Member
White has Hushwing Griff already,
charlequin
Banned
I mean white already has Hushwing Gryff.
SigmasonicX
Member
Oh, right.
At least one color other than white and blue should have a way to deal with creature ETB effects, then.
At least one color other than white and blue should have a way to deal with creature ETB effects, then.
Considering it draws a card you could probably main deck some. It's more powerful game 1 when they are less likely to play around it.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
I think they should just ban reflector Mage. Problem solved. You can mostly deal with all other ETB effects without them being insanely back breaking. Turn 4 CoCo into 2 reflector mages targeting 2 different creatures = you lose the game.
Yeah, that's not happening. It exits with the next rotation and they'll just wait for that. It's not oppressive enough to ban especially when there are a number of viable answers to use in the format.
And this is even less likely.
All said, I bet they're wishing they'd tested Reflector Mage in Constructed now.
After sleeping on it, I am doubtful Hallowed Moonlight alone is enough to stop this Company deck. It wasn't enough to do so last standard, so I don't know why it would be enough here. What's good, I guess, is that the deck that seems to deal best with it so far seems to be White Weenie, and Moonlight is in color, so it probably slots right in.
I've got to think that just about any quick aggro deck is going to run it over, but there don't seem to be many of those around right now. Maybe the meta shifts toward putting an emphasis on speed going forward and we see some new brews? I don't think any other deck can win the long game against it, which sucks, because Ramp is always fun to pilot.
I've got to think that just about any quick aggro deck is going to run it over, but there don't seem to be many of those around right now. Maybe the meta shifts toward putting an emphasis on speed going forward and we see some new brews? I don't think any other deck can win the long game against it, which sucks, because Ramp is always fun to pilot.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's why you gotta mainboard 2 or more languishes and/or Koz Return.
GregLombardi
Member
I think SOI as a limited format is pretty weak. I've done 10 drafts and 5 sealeds. Format is: Play as many 1 drops, 2 drops, 3 drops as you can / can madness out and swing for the win. Cool strategies are rarely effective in the top tier of the limited format in my experience, and red green, white blue fliers, green white tend to be the most winningest archetypes.
I wish Wizards would learn that you don't need a low curve in a limited environment, and its okay if they don't print infinite 2 and 3 drops.
I wish Wizards would learn that you don't need a low curve in a limited environment, and its okay if they don't print infinite 2 and 3 drops.
Sadly. I think this is a Rosewater thing we're stuck with. (Grizzly Bear Test and all that.)
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Grats on getting into a MaRo article charlequin
charlequin
Banned
attn kirblar:
Eh? Eh?
Yeah, I mean obviously we have to watch how things evolve, but the deck diversity at the invitational (both in what people brought and what performed well) is exactly what people were hoping for post-Splinter-Twin-ban. The 7-1 list is very diverse, with eight archetypes (Jund, G/R Aggro, Tron, Scapeshift, Zoo, Burn, Bant Company, and Abzan.) The Classic they held yesterday also had an interesting Top 8, including a weird Mardu Mentor deck.
Not the first time! This is however the first time I made both halves of the same mailbag column.
In terms of the answer I got:
For one, this is almost exactly what I wrote last month about why SOI was the best return block to date (so I'm glad he's taking what is probably the right lesson from it), and for another thing, that first part ("more like Innistrad than Avacyn Restored") hopefully contrasts nicely with their takeaway from BFZ.
maro said:
Eh? Eh?
Yeah, I mean obviously we have to watch how things evolve, but the deck diversity at the invitational (both in what people brought and what performed well) is exactly what people were hoping for post-Splinter-Twin-ban. The 7-1 list is very diverse, with eight archetypes (Jund, G/R Aggro, Tron, Scapeshift, Zoo, Burn, Bant Company, and Abzan.) The Classic they held yesterday also had an interesting Top 8, including a weird Mardu Mentor deck.
Not the first time! This is however the first time I made both halves of the same mailbag column.
In terms of the answer I got:
Maro again said:
For one, this is almost exactly what I wrote last month about why SOI was the best return block to date (so I'm glad he's taking what is probably the right lesson from it), and for another thing, that first part ("more like Innistrad than Avacyn Restored") hopefully contrasts nicely with their takeaway from BFZ.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Okay, that Mardu deck is sweet. It's like a mishmash of BW tokens and Pyromancer tempo. I'm a fan.
The Jeskai deck is exactly the sort of thing I'm expecting to do well in light of the unbannings, except playing both Thopter/Sword and Visions seems wrong to me. I almost see them as mutually exclusive, in that both of those require playing cards that don't do anything for multiple turns. I haven't played with it, but looking at it I feel like it would have a lot of awkward draws and bad mulligans.
Time to invest in some kozres then.
Giant Panda
Member
So is BW fairly well positioned to deal with Bant Company? It has access to Hallowed Moonlight, Languish, and Infinite Obliteration.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Grafdigger's Cage is the actual answer that they're not printing.
The interesting part is that Sam Stoddard directly stated they avoided graveyard hate so that Shadows Over Innistrad wouldn't be affected too harshly, and then there's barely any graveyard mechanics in either constructed or limited. Zombies is practically non-functional in either and Delirium doesn't actually care whether you move stuff from the yard or not.
Honestly, they're taking a weird direction with Standard and I don't know whether its on purpose or not, in that grindy frustratrating decks keep being the best decks.
keeblerdrow
Member
Does anyone else find it surprising that we still don't have any efficient graveyard hate in standard right now? Sideboard hate against Den Protector and Jace would go a long way toward bringing Bant Company's extreme long game under control.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
I would have liked to see the answer phrased in terms of "what SOI got right that previous 'return to' blocks got wrong", because that answer seems almost boilerplate with the rhetoric they've given during the hype cycle leading up to every single other return blockFor one, this is almost exactly what I wrote last month about why SOI was the best return block to date (so I'm glad he's taking what is probably the right lesson from it), and for another thing, that first part ("more like Innistrad than Avacyn Restored") hopefully contrasts nicely with their takeaway from BFZ.
I feel like this is them just flat out misevaluating how good one or two cards are. This time it's Company and Reflector Mage. They just weren't ready for it.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
It kills one of the set's primary mechanics in delirium, which explains why they didn't do it. Maybe in EDM and probably as a rare or something.
Edit: grafdigger's cage is a really good suggestion.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
In a world with rotations every 6 months I don't see it likely it will ever get banned.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I think the thing they were most wary of was Delirium turning "off" though. The possibility of Threshold flipping back and forth was, IIRC, one of the biggest problems they had with it in Odyssey, especially with stuff like this at common:
I'm guessing we get graveyard hate next block, they just didn't want it screwing with SoI Limited
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's true. They've admitted that they really did not think that people would warp deck construction around Collected Company. I'm pretty sure they thought they were just printing some cool new toy for Modern, and they didn't really investigate its use in Standard. This feels like a Delver-level mistake to me - if a card makes you jump through a lot of hoops to make it good, don't just assume that means it won't be playable.
I can forgive them for Reflector Mage though. Man-O-Wars haven't been a part of constructed for a very long time, so "strictly-better-but-harder-to-cast" Man-o-war isn't something that would immediately trip the "this is busted in constructed" alarm.
We're stuck with CoCo until October, so if no bans are imminent, hopefully we get answers or builds that combat it.
A Man O'War is fine. Giving it 3 toughness in a format with no good burn to kill it was a mistake, as was including it in a format that could play it at instant speed (CoCo) and regrow it (Den Protector). And that's not even getting into the whole "can't cast it again" clause that really seals the deal. I don't even mind that it's pushed a bit. It's just a combination of things that make it so irritating.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah Reflector Mage I totally can see slipped through as "this is pretty good, right?". CoCo though seriously feels like someone dropped a ball. Seriously, four mana for up to 6 mana worth of creatures, one card of advantage and a filter? All of those things are really really good
Almost every standard has one. I still remember Unburial Rites on Craterhoof like it was yesterday.
A Serious Man
Member
Reflector Mage is a brutal tempo play but the real nightmare going forward is Duskwatch Recruiter and Tireless Tracker. If they stay on the board for any amount of time the card advantage will bury you. They're both much better than the creatures they replaced after rotation IMO.
charlequin
Banned
It pretty much applies to all the previous examples as is though. Mirrodin had a good twist but did only a middling job of capturing what people liked about it the first time. Ravnica mostly captured what people liked the first time but didn't even try to have a twist. BFZ failed at capturing anything anyone liked from either half of ZEN block and also didn't have a good twist.
They've said that specifically. They thought Company would be good but not quite as good as it is; they didn't test Reflector Mage for constructed because it was intended to be a draft support card.
It will be really, really hard for cards to get banned in Standard now, for sure. If I had to guess, they will if at all possible always try to figure out if an out rotation will kill a bad deck before they ban anything in Standard, which means something would pretty much have to have six months straight of domination to get banned unless it reached insane levels.
The most fundamental problem here was misjudging how important the CMC restriction was. They've done a number of effects like this in the past that were okay, which fell into two categories. One was X spells, which usually had the card depth and CMC limited by the same factor to keep them from getting crazy. The cards in the other category get any creature, but generally cost 6+ mana. They in fact just printed one of these that they thought was going to see heavy play in Khans, See the Unwritten. That digs deep and can potentially get you two creatures of any size, and it was entirely safe. Looking at that, one could easily say "well, make it dig shallower and get small creatures, you can knock off a couple from the cost."
Unfortunately, getting small creatures feels like it's a disadvantage but it isn't. For one, most of the best creatures are 2-3 mana anyway so the stuff you care about getting already falls in that category; for another, a deck built around 2-3 CMC creatures is just better than one built around 4+ CMC creatures because it can actually cast creatures.
Right. I'm not saying anything new. I'm merely pointing out why they didn't print any kinds of foils or answers in Shadows -- this wasn't even on their radar as something to contend with, and you'd be incredibly lucky to solve a problem you didn't know about by accident.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
LSV gave CoCo a "2" in his constructed ratings I believe.
Infinite Stars
Member
Bygone Bishop also works really well in this shell. Having a Bishop in play with a Tracker is just all shades of value.
keeblerdrow
Member
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/dragons-of-tarkir-constructed-review-green/
God, we were all so innocent back then, weren't we?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
- Status