Devotion is probably the most popular Theros mechanic, but I'd imagine heroic is second.
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Magic: the Gathering - Shadows over Innistrad |OT| Blue's Clues
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
oh yeah devotion. I should know that I still use it in my fish deck.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I appreciate it, but I don't think they'll get here from Europe in time. I did manage to confirm a third trade for two Mindwracks, but I doubt they'll be in time either.
Might just have to wait a couple weeks for the next PPTQ. Was hoping to fight through non-PT tested decks while I still can, but the other shop will have a smaller player pool so it evens out.
Vintage leagues on MTGO since it's the biggest data points we have right now just 1 weeks after restriction.
Literally everything was a mentor blue deck.
On aside, Theros wasn't bad, but the enchantment them of creature enchantments just being creatures with static effects was boring as shit to me. Just lazy design that added nothing relevant to the game interaction just like colored artifacts. Made just for the novelty.
Heroic was pretty badly designed too. Should've worked on opponent's spell to emphasize the ability of the heroes to navigate both advantages and adversities. Working it only on your spells made it way too clunky to use and a 2-for-1 festival, whereas working on enemy spells would've made it at least a sort of semi-protection from damage removal spells (which they could've used since apparently lightning strike wasn't reprinted because it warped too much standard?).
Just run Bant
A Serious Man
Member
MagicTV touched on this last week but I've been thinking about it for awhile, what is the transition to Magic Next going to look like?
Any financial model they use will almost certainly involve doing away with card redemption and thus cratering the market for online cards (at least compared to what it is now). Will collections carry over? Will MTGO players be reimbursed somehow on the new platform? How does WotC transition without losing the faith of longtime MTGO players? If they still refuse to do away with the Reserved List because it will devalue collections, how do they navigate this?
Any financial model they use will almost certainly involve doing away with card redemption and thus cratering the market for online cards (at least compared to what it is now). Will collections carry over? Will MTGO players be reimbursed somehow on the new platform? How does WotC transition without losing the faith of longtime MTGO players? If they still refuse to do away with the Reserved List because it will devalue collections, how do they navigate this?
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's fucking absurd that it costs $14 to join a draft that demands you commit the next 3 hours of your life to sitting in front of the computer. The fact that you get a lottery ticket alongside your draft is not appropriate compensation.
The entire business model of MTGO is outdated and broken at its core. It's based on squeezing dollars out of addicts. It's not a business model that's primed for growth, and WotC needs to switch it up sooner rather than later.
The entire business model of MTGO is outdated and broken at its core. It's based on squeezing dollars out of addicts. It's not a business model that's primed for growth, and WotC needs to switch it up sooner rather than later.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
There isn't any other way to run a draft since you have to play your pod. And it doesn't work that way for Sealed.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Sealed Leagues are a step in the right direction (in the sense that the time problem is solved), but it still boggles my mind that people will pay that much money to play. I can't believe I used to do it - regularly.
The 8-man draft pod format works really well in person, as its a social experience and not just a game. I don't think it plays the same way online. I think it's easy to believe that it does because of how much people talk about it, but it's such an inferior product unless you're just jonesing for a fix and can't wait for FNM.
Magic Digital Next (or whatever it ends up being called) needs to not only look at the quality of the client, but they need to spend some actual R&D time looking into formats which play better in a digital environment. For example, why can't we Winston draft online? Is there a way to do a "Draft League?" Can we take inspiration from Hearthstone's "arena" format and come up with something new?
The current ecosystem exists for the same reason the Reserved List exists - they didn't want the price of the physical cards to be affected by the existence of digital cards. That's why the packs cost the same online as in person - which is just straight dumb. Sure, there's this mythical "redemption" thing, but that's just for 1% and the bot chains/online stores. I don't really want to see Heath's work crumble to dust (I actually like the guy), but I think his business and the others in that space are taking advantage of a bad system. And I think that system needs to be stripped out and replaced with something that's going to draw people in as opposed to put them off.
GregLombardi
Member
Not sure why people keep passing Odric. He is insane, and I am pretty sure he is the only card (in concert with other cards) that could have possibly beat this insane draw / board state / graveyard from my opponent.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Pretty sure the markov dreadknight won that game
GregLombardi
Member
Yeah maybe 1 turn earlier than I would have lost it (due to my opponent getting rid of my best creature). But Odric is the card that got me there.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
How'd you get lifelink?
Not sure why people keep passing Odric. He is insane, and I am pretty sure he is the only card (in concert with other cards) that could have possibly beat this insane draw / board state / graveyard from my opponent.
Whoops forgot the 1/3 has skulk and lifelink. Gross,
A Serious Man
Member
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
He really is insane, when I got him at the thg, he just ate removal every time sadly.
The 1/3 has skulk and lifelink it didn't fit in the mtgo frame of the card apparently.
GregLombardi
Member
Also, this was the other game I won in the finals, of the 3. Perhaps a better demonstration of OdricINsanity
"God's Beard!"
Member
I ran into a whole other level of salt already today on Cockatrice.
I play turn 4 Gitrog, 2nd land dead weight the guy's creature, he kills it so I untap and thought knot his other removal spell and he just leaves the game.
He was at 18 life and concedes on turm 5 when I have one creature out.
I play turn 4 Gitrog, 2nd land dead weight the guy's creature, he kills it so I untap and thought knot his other removal spell and he just leaves the game.
He was at 18 life and concedes on turm 5 when I have one creature out.
I've given my entire board flying, vigilance, and lifelink in draft before. It was disgusting. I don't play that much Magic but IMO even just giving everyone flying seems really good in limited.
Not sure why people keep passing Odric. He is insane, and I am pretty sure he is the only card (in concert with other cards) that could have possibly beat this insane draw / board state / graveyard from my opponent.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Ggs ashodin, my internet is supeeer dead
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
God's Beard ragequits
claims internet died
checks out
claims internet died
checks out
charlequin
Banned
Card redemption is dead dead dead, I think we can all agree on that.
This is really a situation with a choice between two options. On one side, you stick with emulating the paper game as closely as possible. You drop prices a meaningful amount since redemption is no longer a factor, but keep the overall structure similar -- you pay for packs and events, you need to roll back in prizes from previous events to play "for free," etc. In this case you could probably just carry over collections as-is and even if the values dropped as a result of the changes people would still largely tolerate it.
The alternative is to go more full-throatedly in the Hearthstone direction -- make the online game properly F2P, give rewards just for playing, and move away from trading/buying as an element -- in which case collections are probably getting wiped and MTGO as we know it sunsetted for good.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The gp drafting made for some weird dynamics at gp barcelona
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm flabbergasted at what RoboRosewater can come up with sometimes:
Some sort of grandfather program into this for collection hogs would be needed. I can see tons of outrage from older players saying "I WENT ALL DIGITAL FUCK WOTC"
But then you'd get TONS of newer players "I feel like this is a hearthstone competitor, good job WOTC" because as we all know Hearthstone is one of the top watched games on Twitch.
WOTC is not that ambitious however.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It might be now
Hasbro is, though.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think you'd have to literally introduce a new product or people would howl if their MTGO collections were shuttered. A Vintage Legacy deck costs an actual thousand dollars.
Same reason it took WCW to make WWE not shit.
I don't see the basic MTGO model changing. It's set up that way to protect local shops.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They could roll over collections with the caveat that they can't be traded after being carried over.
Have to stop the trading prior to it though.
Have to stop the trading prior to it though.
divisionbyzorro
Member
They should be viewed as different products. We all know that the MTGO client is shit, but it's really the business model that's off-putting. If they don't turn that thing 90 degrees from paper, they're putting a cap on their player base right from the start.
I don't think this is correct at all.
People may not like it, but people will pay/play it anyway. People on a budget don't play MTG in the first place. The problem is that the user experience is so fucking miserable right now.
Except that Hearthstone's numbers prove that more people will play a game with a friendlier business model. There's no way for MTGO to retake ground from Hearthstone if gamers are expected to pay $15 each time they want to draft. Lord knows its why I play Hearthstone, despite being a longtime paper MTG player.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Whether more people play isn't actually material, its about money. MTGO players spend a LOT for almost no cost on WOTC's end.
It doesn't matter how many people play, it matters how many pay. MTG is aimed at people with disposable income.
Bingo, it's why they've been able to do as little as possible for so long- they could pretend that they weren't leaving gigantic wads of cash on the table.
HS proved the counterfactual, hence Hasbro finally cleaning house.
No idea the exact numbers/ratios, but the kind of people who spend money on MTGO are going to be spending a LOT of money on MTGO. Likely much more than on HS, where you can kinda get away with just buying the adventures/prerelease bundles and still have a good collection.
You can get much bigger whales in MTG.
I've always wanted to see redemption going the other way, but for that to happen, redemption on MTGO would need to go. If every booster pack you bought came with a code to get you a booster in MTGO, it'd help to get people like me more invested in the digital side. I don't have any interest in having two separate collections, but if I could draft in person then use the codes from the boosters to offset the cost of a draft on MTGO, I'd be far more open to actually drafting online.
I love the bird theme it's been pushing recently. Can't wait for prismatic bird tribal with hydromorph frog core.I'm flabbergasted at what RoboRosewater can come up with sometimes:
Giant Panda
Member
I'm flabbergasted at what RoboRosewater can come up with sometimes:
That card is stupid. Roborosewater should know Red can't destroy enchantments!
Return to Planar Chaos (RPC). The set symbol is the one of Planar Chaos, just rotated by 90°. Finally Red gets to destroy enchantments, Blue gets to gain life and there's other wacky twists. You heard it here first.
Story is about how Jace has to fix the universe since the death of the Eldrazi causes, uh, holes in time and space? Also there's Thallids, everyone loves Thallids.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I guess we're just making fundamentally different assumptions about what people want.
I think that you're leaving piles of cash on the table by pinning the business model of the digital game to the physical game. You should be trying to get as many people in the door as possible.By the way - the term "whales" really frustrates me when it comes to MTGO. The people at the top of the pyramid are "sharks," who are taking money away from the "fish." MTGO's "whales" are actually "fish" swimming in the wrong ecosystem - they're people who are paying to play a game that they aren't good at, but they keep playing. The people who are actually good are paying pennies compared to the people who are bad. Let's not kid ourselves - MTGO is just fancy online poker, and I don't believe that Magic should be chasing poker money. We've seen enough success from other games in this space to believe that they should be chasing Hearthstone/League/Counterstrike money.
I think WotC is taking the safe and lazy route. I think they're missing out on a significant profit stream by doing so.
It was somewhere in the middle of Khans draft when I realized that I actually hated the experience of drafting online. This of course sucked, because I loved drafting. I had to sit back and list off the reasons why I liked paper draft and I hated digital draft. It basically came down to this:
1) The social experience on MTGO is shit. I'm locking myself behind a screen for three hours at a time to draft - it's a completely antisocial experience. It's not like I'm a streamer who gets to share his experience with an audience. I'm either locked in my office, giving up spending time with my wife or kid (or sleep I suppose), or I'm playing on my tablet sitting next to my wife while watching some show on TV.
2) The price is ridiculous. I have to pay $10-$14 (depending upon the price of packs) for the privilege of a sub-part draft experience. And if I'm of average skill level, I can expect to cut that price down by a little bit, but not much.
3) The time commitment is crazy, but that's really just an extension of (1). I don't mind drafting for three hours when it's me and friends cracking beers at home, or me and friends hanging out at a store.
What it really comes down to is the opportunity cost. The opportunity cost of a draft at FNM is doing something else with friends, like going to see a movie. Drafting is comparable, and (IMO) even superior. The opportunity cost of a draft at home is playing another video game or spending time with family. The experience is quite similar, so the apparent cost of the entry fee skyrockets.
The reason I focus on draft, by the way, is because I'm assuming people aren't buying "cases" of packs and busting them online. My assumption is that the vast majority of Constructed players are buying their cards from bots, and the vast majority of those cards originated by Limited players opening them in drafts and sealed events.
I guarantee you it would be trivial to get people ("whales" I suppose) to spend money on dumb shit on a better MTGO digital platform. Upgrade your cards to foil. Upgrade your cards to animate. Buy sleeves for your decks. Buy sweet premium tokens. Buy playmats. Buy avatars. If you upgrade your Lightning Bolt to this limited edition version, your opponent's card will explode when it resolves! Sick, give me one of those!
And I'm not suggesting that you give away all the cards for free - I'm just suggesting that it's ridiculous for a pack of digital cards to cost the same as a pack of physical cards. Hell, Hearthstone doesn't just give away their cards. You either work your ass off for them, or you pay for packs. Even the Arena costs money.
It goes back to the apparent cost. When I'm choosing between playing something on Steam or booting up MTGO to draft, I shouldn't have a $14 hurdle standing between me and one of those options.
Yes, it's like Poker, because Poker is the game MTG is most similar to.I guess we're just making fundamentally different assumptions about what people want.
By the way - the term "whales" really frustrates me when it comes to MTGO. The people at the top of the pyramid are "sharks," who are taking money away from the "fish." MTGO's "whales" are actually "fish" swimming in the wrong ecosystem - they're people who are paying to play a game that they aren't good at, but they keep playing. The people who are actually good are paying pennies compared to the people who are bad. Let's not kid ourselves - MTGO is just fancy online poker, and I don't believe that Magic should be chasing poker money. We've seen enough success from other games in this space to believe that they should be chasing Hearthstone/League/Counterstrike money.
I think WotC is taking the safe and lazy route. I think they're missing out on a significant profit stream by doing so.
It's why trying to focus on Pros like you do in other games doesn't work because of the variance in the game- Poker builds up a large stable of personalities for this reason, because you never know which are going to make it to the last day of the tournament, but usually some number of them will.
It's the right model.
What do you guys think of this UR Dragons list that Top 4'd a PTQ in Japan with 130+ players?
9 Island
7 Mountain
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
1 Highland Lake
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Rattlechains
4 Dimensional Infiltrator
4 Silumgar Sorcerer
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Whirler Rogue
4 Icefall Regent
4 Draconic Roar
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Void Shatter
SB:
4 Rending Volley
4 Fevered Visions
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Tears of Valakut
1 Roast
Flash creatures, counters, burn, and Silumgar Sorcerer tech to deal with Avacyn and problem creatures. I really like it and it is cheap as all hell.
rest of the top 8 was 4xBant Company, Abzan Midrange, Mono white humans, Mono red Eldrazi.
9 Island
7 Mountain
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
1 Highland Lake
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Rattlechains
4 Dimensional Infiltrator
4 Silumgar Sorcerer
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Whirler Rogue
4 Icefall Regent
4 Draconic Roar
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Void Shatter
SB:
4 Rending Volley
4 Fevered Visions
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Tears of Valakut
1 Roast
Flash creatures, counters, burn, and Silumgar Sorcerer tech to deal with Avacyn and problem creatures. I really like it and it is cheap as all hell.
rest of the top 8 was 4xBant Company, Abzan Midrange, Mono white humans, Mono red Eldrazi.
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