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[G.ZZZ]

LSV gave CoCo a "2" in his constructed ratings I believe.

Which is absurd because double creature draw + cheat up to two mana for 6 is clearly a good card. It isn't even subtle like something like Pod which is harder to evaluate as you have to consider its value over multiple turns and then you have to make a particular deck for it (with a steady curve of different cmc creatures). This is like a draw 2 + add 6 for 4 at instant speed. Not always, but it often is in the right deck. Which is clearly absurd, even if not downright broken.

Tales from Vintage after the lodestone restriction: everything was blue mentor decks. Well played wotc, we've lost the policeman of the format and now everyone can play his favourite blue deck. Bah. I hope Shops can bounce back a little but seeing the policeman of the format, which was the second most played deck, not even the first, gutted by restrictions is really a depressing view. It's as if they banned FoW in legacy because too many decks run it.

Tales from Legacy, Eldrazi disappeared from the face of the earth, going from the most placing deck in march to the fifth in april. Lands resurgence, as well as many loam abzan strategies and veteran explorer decks basically killed it. On the other side, combos has seen a significant uptick with FoW being the least played it has been in years and Eldrazi being predated up to extinction. Soon delver will rise again to predate on said combo lists, and then Eldrazi will go up again. What kind of equilibrium will the format reach, i'm curious to see.

 

[The Technomancer]

The most fundamental problem here was misjudging how important the CMC restriction was. They've done a number of effects like this in the past that were okay, which fell into two categories. One was X spells, which usually had the card depth and CMC limited by the same factor to keep them from getting crazy. The cards in the other category get any creature, but generally cost 6+ mana. They in fact just printed one of these that they thought was going to see heavy play in Khans, See the Unwritten. That digs deep and can potentially get you two creatures of any size, and it was entirely safe. Looking at that, one could easily say "well, make it dig shallower and get small creatures, you can knock off a couple from the cost."

Unfortunately, getting small creatures feels like it's a disadvantage but it isn't. For one, most of the best creatures are 2-3 mana anyway so the stuff you care about getting already falls in that category; for another, a deck built around 2-3 CMC creatures is just better than one built around 4+ CMC creatures because it can actually cast creatures.

Yeah I think comparing it to similar dig spells is a mistake. It very very much feels like Cascade 2.0 with how it actually plays out.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I mean, that's exactly what happened, right? A few more sets worth of creatures, and blam-o - it's busted.

 

[G.ZZZ]

See the unwritten problem is that it is a card that want to cheat bombs, but you don't want to place many bombs in your deck. And STU dig only 8 deep. To abuse the cheat aspect you'd need to fill your decks with bombs, like 10+ of them, in which case your hands would sucks and you'd have no plays until later. The mechanic of the card is extremely counter-productive to the effect you'd like to have. Which is a fine balancing method, but hard to evaluate. Personally, i thought StU was trash from the first moment i saw it. Once you realize that you'd need to have a deck full of bombs and an unreliable 6 cmc spell to cheat what, 2 mana at most? Because tbh, griselbrand is the best creature you can get anyway.

Coco on the other hand place way less restrictions on your deckbuilding. Build a good midrangey decks a bit more heavy on 3 cmc creatures and add 4 CoCo. There, you've built a deck that give you the most potential out of CoCo.

Playing with cards like Survival make you understand better the value of deck restrictions. CoCo play a restriction on your deckbuilding which is not far from how you constructs decks anyway (use 22-25 creatures, more heavy on the 2-3 cmc curve). StU ask you to build a pile to abuse it, or use it with more midrangey creatures and have what is essentially a 6 mana sorcery CoCo that sometimes get only 1 creature but can get also a 4 or 5 cmc creatures if you're lucky. Survival is absurd but ask you to build what is essentially a pile in eternal formats, aka ~30 creatures decks, for the benefit of having an alternate combo kill that is comparable to elves, but way slower than actual elves! (even god survival hands don't win until T3 unless you run shit like ESG) but with the upside of having the possibility of playing all kind of creatures instead of just elves.

 

[charlequin]

Tales from Vintage after the lodestone restriction: everything was blue mentor decks. Well played wotc, we've lost the policeman of the format and now everyone can play his favourite blue deck. Bah. I hope Shops can bounce back a little but seeing the policeman of the format, which was the second most played deck, not even the first, gutted by restrictions is really a depressing view.

Still not sure what this is based on. In the absence of something like a Pro Tour to directly examine I'm gonna fall back on the person with data, and in this case the most extensive metagame data I've seen (Menendian's) didn't support the idea that Shops was a "policeman" at all.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

It pretty much applies to all the previous examples as is though. Mirrodin had a good twist but did only a middling job of capturing what people liked about it the first time. Ravnica mostly captured what people liked the first time but didn't even try to have a twist. BFZ failed at capturing anything anyone liked from either half of ZEN block and also didn't have a good twist.

Sure, but I mean how in every preview cycle they always talk about how they've cracked the code for nostalgia+twist (although much of that is PR speak to market the set I presume). The fact that they actually happened upon the right formula for SOI feels more accidental than intentional.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Still not sure what this is based on. In the absence of something like a Pro Tour to directly examine I'm gonna fall back on the person with data, and in this case the most extensive metagame data I've seen (Menendian's) didn't support the idea that Shops was a "policeman" at all.

Shop was literally the fun police.

Spoiler

That doesn't mean it was healthy for the metagame and as an outsider I fully support the restriction.

 

[charlequin]

Sure, but I mean how in every preview cycle they always talk about how they've cracked the code for nostalgia+twist

I think SOM and this are the only times they've really hit that note. Ravnica's marketing was pure, unabashed nostalgia. BFZ they seem to have known was crap well before launch since they were making excuses from day 1 for why they couldn't actually make it feel like Zendikar.

For all the faults of WotC, they're actually pretty good at admitting to and going in depth on their mistakes once a set's out of the sales cycle, and I do think his answer is, like, factually correct about what they did right this time, so to my mind it's a good answer. What I'd be looking for more is whether they try to call back to this line to market their next return block and, if so, whether it seems to be earned.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think SOM and this are the only times they've really hit that note. Ravnica's marketing was pure, unabashed nostalgia. BFZ they seem to have known was crap well before launch since they were making excuses from day 1 for why they couldn't actually make it feel like Zendikar.

For all the faults of WotC, they're actually pretty good at admitting to and going in depth on their mistakes once a set's out of the sales cycle, and I do think his answer is, like, factually correct about what they did right this time, so to my mind it's a good answer. What I'd be looking for more is whether they try to call back to this line to market their next return block and, if so, whether it seems to be earned.

What could similar return twists be? Having Phyrexia invade somewhere else seems obvious, and the most natural way to do things. What do you do with Theros?
Perhaps most interestingly: although they set things up for Tarkir 2 to be a mirror of Tarkir 1 (from dragons to clans), I don't actually think that's all that interesting: what else could they throw in the mix?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'd think the next phyrexia, would be Elspeth's plane and that also means it can only really come after Return to Theros.

 

[SigmasonicX]

What could similar return twists be? Having Phyrexia invade somewhere else seems obvious, and the most natural way to do things. What do you do with Theros?
Perhaps most interestingly: although they set things up for Tarkir 2 to be a mirror of Tarkir 1 (from dragons to clans), I don't actually think that's all that interesting: what else could they throw in the mix?

For Theros, they've already set up that people are starting to understand that the gods are made from their own beliefs, so they could have a New Gods vs. Old Gods thing, with a bunch of new minor gods at rare. Mechanically, adjusting the enchantment focus and targeting theme in either direction could produce something that feels different but similar.

 

[The Technomancer]

2017

Phyrexians invade Zendikar

Nahiri has an aneurism

 

[bigkrev]

Why would we return to Theros? I don't think anyone would care. Theros sold well but was really disappointing compared to Ravnica, Born of The Gods is probably the least exciting small set of all time, and it made Journey into Nyx look better in hindsight. I don't think people give a shit about Greek Mythology- I'm sure the set was Greenlit in an era where Clash of the Titans was a pretty big deal, but that's years ago at this point

 

[Angry Grimace]

Why would we return to Theros? I don't think anyone would care. Theros sold well but was really disappointing compared to Ravnica, Born of The Gods is probably the least exciting small set of all time, and it made Journey into Nyx look better in hindsight. I don't think people give a shit about Greek Mythology- I'm sure the set was Greenlit in an era where Clash of the Titans was a pretty big deal, but that's years ago at this point

Yeah, but let's level: the fans are dumb and only like planes where the cards were objectively powerful and don't give a fuck if the world and story itself was cool which is a stupid reason to pick a setting.

Zendikar was never all that cool to begin with, it's generic fantasy-adventure-land(?) world, very little of which came through in the cards, and the limited environment sucked. The real reason people wnated to go back was the first block was powerful from a constructed standpoint.

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah, but let's level: the fans are dumb and only like planes where the cards were objectively powerful and don't give a fuck if the world and story itself was cool which is a stupid reason to pick a setting.

Zendikar was never all that cool to begin with, it's generic fantasy-adventure world, very little of which came through in the cards, and the limited environment sucked. The real reason people wnated to go back was the first block was powerful from a constructed standpoint.

Yo hey, some fans are spikes and some aren't

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yo hey, some fans are spikes and some aren't

That's my point: spikes are dumb loud people who complain about shit on r/magicTCG so when they say "nobody wants to go back to Theros" they're usually just whining that Theros was a low power block, not that it wasn't cool from a flavor and story perspective.

 

[Firemind]

Wow, my opponent played Incorrigible Youths on t3, t4 and t5 and I still managed to win the game. Madness is so shit lol. Odyssey this is not.

 

[charlequin]

What could similar return twists be? Having Phyrexia invade somewhere else seems obvious, and the most natural way to do things. What do you do with Theros?

Well given that it'll be about Elspeth, focusing it on the Underworld seems like a good starting point. I liked the idea of doing a mismatched buddy comedy thing with Elspeth and Xenagos having to team up to escape back to life with their personalities intact.

Why would we return to Theros?

Some people want to return to every previous plane, and Theros at least had a cool setting.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The only way I win at limited is to pick an archetype by pick 5 and then force it as hard as possible.

I am not a good limited player.

 

[Xis]

It's plausible a return to Theros would hit on the similar but slightly different Roman mythology. Rosewater said in his podcast that for Theros they originally started with Greco-Roman themes, but eventually decided to focus on the Greek, and save most of the Roman themes for later.

Edit: perhaps they would show the same plane, but advance the timeline by hundreds of years? Over the centuries the beliefs of the people may change, and those beliefs maybe effect the gods?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Oh Romulus and Remus, Hannibal,... I like it.

They could probably make a compelling story about a budding monotheistic sect a la the persecution of christians. Centered around elspeth after she reemerges from the underworld intact, omg fangirlboying right now.

 

[hermit7]

Oh Romulus and Remus, Hannibal,... I like it.

They could probably make a compelling story about a budding monotheistic sect a la the persecution of christians.

Someone like Elspeth perhaps?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Someone like Elspeth perhaps?

Lol just edited in the same idea. I really love that idea. Jesus did vanish afterward his resurrection in the story so it'd leave the option for elspeth to leave and return decades later to see the consequences.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

That's my point: spikes are dumb loud people who complain about shit on r/magicTCG so when they say "nobody wants to go back to Theros" they're usually just whining that Theros was a low power block, not that it wasn't cool from a flavor and story perspective.

I fucking loved Theros and will defend it to death. I legit miss drafting Triple Theros.

 

[El Topo]

That's my point: spikes are dumb loud people who complain about shit on r/magicTCG so when they say "nobody wants to go back to Theros" they're usually just whining that Theros was a low power block, not that it wasn't cool from a flavor and story perspective.

Well, I mean, it's Reddit.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well given that it'll be about Elspeth, focusing it on the Underworld seems like a good starting point. I liked the idea of doing a mismatched buddy comedy thing with Elspeth and Xenagos having to team up to escape back to life with their personalities intact.



Some people want to return to every previous plane, and Theros at least had a cool setting.

Theros as a setting is super duper salvagable. Theros as a standalone set is still a strong entry in the Magic canon, it just evolved poorly through the block

 

[hermit7]

Lol just edited in the same idea. I really love that idea. Jesus did vanish afterward his resurrection in the story so it'd leave the option for elspeth to leave and return decades later to see the consequences.

They have it set up apparently already with Ajani trying to dispel the whole gods thing.

Seems like a decent story the old gods quarrel with her and her rise as a deity.

 

[Firemind]

I fucking loved Theros and will defend it to death. I legit miss drafting Triple Theros.

wingsteed rider is a dumb card in a format with gods willing and almost no removal and you should feel bad for liking it

 

[charlequin]

Edit: perhaps they would show the same plane, but advance the timeline by hundreds of years? Over the centuries the beliefs of the people may change, and those beliefs maybe effect the gods?

They can't do big time skips anymore, they have a fixed cast.

Theros as a setting is super duper salvagable. Theros as a standalone set is still a strong entry in the Magic canon, it just evolved poorly through the block

Yes, Theros is a very good set, and there's a second very good set to be had between the cards in BNG and JIN. I think it could've been a pretty sweet two-set block.

 

[The Technomancer]

I've said before that I really really like my friend's Theros cube. There's something sort of...classical feeling about it fittingly enough, when compiled like that it sort of feels like a set from 1999 that was re-developed with modern standards

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They have it set up apparently already with Ajani trying to dispel the whole gods thing.

Seems like a decent story the old gods quarrel with her and her rise as a deity.

good catch I could really imagine this being the theme for the return sets now.

 

[kirblar]

The big problem with Theros 1.0 is that it's near-completely cut/paste from Greek Mythology in a way Innistrad isn't.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

wingsteed rider is a dumb card in a format with gods willing and almost no removal and you should feel bad for liking it

git gud scrub

Spoiler

Legitimately though - nothing in Theros is unbeatable. Wingsteed Rider is definitely a crazy good common, but it's not impossible to deal with.

The big problem with Theros 1.0 is that it's near-completely cut/paste from Greek Mythology in a way Innistrad isn't.

When you do Greek Mythology, you're ripping off things with names. When you do Gothic Horror, you're just riffing on concepts.

I think both sets nail their flavor. I think your critique is inevitable of a "Greek Mythology" set. You'd have to start from a completely different foundation if you want to avoid that.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Man, I'm getting real tired of people confirming online trades then waiting 4 days before backing out. It's not even that the trade backfired that bothers me, but that they waited so long. Now I can't count on orders arriving by friday and the shop the pptq is at is out of the card.

ALL I NEEDED WAS 2 MINDWRACK DEMONS


;_;

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

More Kalitas instead

 

["God's Beard!"]

More Kalitas instead

I only have one and I don't feel like buying expensive cards on top of a 30 dollar entry just to play a build I'm not happy with.

I guess I can wait 2 more weeks to play in the next one but still. It's really annoying.

 

[Angry Grimace]

P3P4 Declaration in Stone? What?

I mean, its worth 3/4 of a MODO draft is.

 

[Yeef]

Almost every standard has one. I still remember Unburial Rites on Craterhoof like it was yesterday.

Never forget.

Why would we return to Theros?

People wanted a heavier Enchantment theme from Theros, so when they go back, I could see them trying to hit that. Story-wise, there's also lots of loose ends there.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Been rewatching the draft section of GP Barcelona and everything but Fabrizio Anteri was pretty boring, I tuned out of all the other drafts.

That guy is insane and awesome. For some reason he was using sleeves from my LGS but he isn't from here nor affiliated with it as far as I can tell.

 

[Giant Panda]

I think Theros would be a pretty interesting return. Just bring back Bestow and Constellation plz WOTC. There's plenty of interesting directions the story could go. Did we ever find out what exactly Ashiok was doing?

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think Theros would be a pretty interesting return. Just bring back Bestow and Constellation plz WOTC. There's plenty of interesting directions the story could go. Did we ever find out what exactly Ashiok was doing?

Casting his opponent's siege rhinos and giving them back torrent elementals

 

[Yeef]

I think Theros would be a pretty interesting return. Just bring back Bestow and Constellation plz WOTC. There's plenty of interesting directions the story could go. Did we ever find out what exactly Ashiok was doing?

I doubt Bestow will be back, as much as I like the mechanic. It was on the high side of the complexity limit, so they'll probably do something else in a similar space. Hell, if it's far enough away, they could do DFC Auras that turn into creatures, a la Skin Invasion.

I think Ashiok hooked up with Phenax to torment some villagers' nightmares or something.

 

[Hero]

I doubt Bestow will be back, as much as I like the mechanic. It was on the high side of the complexity limit, so they'll probably do something else in a similar space. Hell, if it's far enough away, they could do DFC Auras that turn into creatures, a la Skin Invasion.

I think Ashiok hooked up with Phenax to torment some villagers' nightmares or something.

They already did licids though.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I doubt Bestow will be back, as much as I like the mechanic. It was on the high side of the complexity limit, so they'll probably do something else in a similar space. Hell, if it's far enough away, they could do DFC Auras that turn into creatures, a la Skin Invasion.

I think Ashiok hooked up with Phenax to torment some villagers' nightmares or something.

They went back to DFC for innistrad arguably a rather complex mechanic with lots of triggers to be missed so I doubt that'd be an issue for Theros.

Enchantment creatures make much less sense w/o bestow as well.

 

[WanderingWind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201309160]Man, I'm getting real tired of people confirming online trades then waiting 4 days before backing out. It's not even that the trade backfired that bothers me, but that they waited so long. Now I can't count on orders arriving by friday and the shop the pptq is at is out of the card.

ALL I NEEDED WAS 2 MINDWRACK DEMONS


;_;[/QUOTE]

Bro, I got a whole playset for ya.

 

[Yeef]

They went back to DFC for innistrad arguably a rather complex mechanic with lots of triggers to be missed so I doubt that'd be an issue for Theros.

Enchantment creatures make much less sense w/o bestow as well.

Rosewater put it at a 7 on the storm scale due to complexity. Granted, he put Madness at an 8 and we still got it back, but I'd espect them to go in a different direction for Theros 2. I think we'd definitely see Enchantment Creatures and Heroic when we return to Theros, but I think Bestow, specifically, feels less likely.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Concerning what Ashiok was doing, they were basically just messing around with dreams and how belief can influence gods. Apparently they were also doing something else to destroy Theros in the IDW comics, but I doubt Wizards will actually reference those beyond acknowledging that Dack Fayden exists.

As for bestow and enchantment creatures, MaRo seems to have come around on the idea of having enchantment creatures that don't act like enchantments, like Lucent Liminid. It also seems unlikely that bestow will return in Standard from his statements, since a lot of people were confused by it and it was only moderately popular. If heroic doesn't return, there's no need to have creatures that can become spells that can target.

EDIT: I expect that we'll get new bestow cards in a Commander product, but probably not in a Standard set.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I love bestow, my sealed at the prerelease was awesome with multiples of the white 1 drops, and the rare dude that basically is and bestows */* = creatures + auras.

Heroic, constellation and the other mechanics I was much lukewarmer on. I actually don't remember any of the others. Oh yeah there was that untap thingie, that felt just like a worse shadowmoor thing.

 

[bigkrev]

I hate bestow because it works differently from every other Aura in the history of Magic

 

[WanderingWind]

That's my point: spikes are dumb loud people who complain about shit on r/magicTCG so when they say "nobody wants to go back to Theros" they're usually just whining that Theros was a low power block, not that it wasn't cool from a flavor and story perspective.

This marks the first and last time anybody has confused r/magictcg, home of mana symbol cakes and brews built on puns, as being spikey.

Theros was dull thematically, it was dull mechanically and it used all of its good ideas already. It being low powered isn't too high up on the list on why Theros was garbage. Of course, considering BFZ was roughly twice as bad, I can see why folks are getting nostalgic. The lukewarm grill cheese made with Kraft singles isn't going to excite anybody, but at least it's better than a glass of scalding hot lemonade.