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[divisionbyzorro]

Yes, it's like Poker, because Poker is the game MTG is most similar to.

I suppose? In the sense that it's a) a mix of skill and luck and b) it takes fucking ages to run a tournament. But you've got tunnel vision if you think that just because the game features luck and skill that you have to structure your digital business model around large entry fees, guaranteed time commitment, and generally poor EV.

It's why trying to focus on Pros like you do in other games doesn't work because of the variance in the game- Poker builds up a large stable of personalities for this reason, because you never know which are going to make it to the last day of the tournament, but usually some number of them will.

An interesting point, but it's not really relevant here.

It's the right model.

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I don't really buy the argument now. You say it's "the right model," but that reads to me like someone who's just afraid to change. To be fair - I would have agreed with you before the success of Hearthstone. WotC didn't need to rock the boat or "fix what ain't broke" before. But Hearthstone has demonstrated (quite clearly, in my opinion) that there is a market out there that they've completely missed. The way I see it, they can tap into that market by changing their digital business model. For starters, you decouple it from paper. From there, you have a world of opportunities.

I appreciate that there is a crazy big hurdle when it comes to people who have invested in significant online portfolios. That's not a small thing to deal with, and I don't have an easy answer. But I think WotC needs to look long-term.

 

[kirblar]

HS has a relatively small upper bound to what people will pay for in the game compared to other titles. Dailies + adventures + prerelease packs = you're actually pretty good to go.

MTG has a gigantic one.

HS goes wide. MTG goes deep.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I don't think people spend money on a daily basis in HS more like it happens in MTG, buy a display and buy the adventures but then they can grind while in MTGO you have to sink more and more money into it.

 

[Bandini]

Though the games of poker and Magic are very similar as far as being a combination of luck of skill, I personally feel like MTGO being based on a so-called "poker model" is very misguided.

I've played over a million hands of online poker for real money over the last 12 or so years. I play poker to win money. If you play poker to have fun, you might have some short term success, but you're certainly not going to win long term. Playing well means grinding. But it can also be satisfying - being smart by cutting your losses constantly and then seeing the payoffs over time. You put in the effort, play right, and you expect to see profit.

Magic payouts, quite frankly, are garbage. I'm totally ok with that, because Magic is fast-paced and provides a visceral thrill, and I really enjoy the aspect of deck-building. I just think it's silly for people to treat it like a potentially profitable endeavor. You might spend $1000 on a Modern deck. How are you supposed to make your money back when you have to travel hundreds of miles to a tournament where the top prize is $3000? It's futile.

So I think it's right to go in another direction. Make a reward system that actually keeps people playing. Make the buy-ins smaller or eliminate them altogether. Or hell, just roll and the dice and make something new. Hearthstone has proved that the player base is there, if word-of-mouth gets going they could build something big. Find a way to make it accessible for anyone.

 

[kirblar]

Though the games of poker and Magic are very similar as far as being a combination of luck of skill, I personally feel like MTGO being based on a so-called "poker model" is very misguided.

I've played over a million hands of online poker for real money over the last 12 or so years. I play poker to win money. If you play poker to have fun, you might have some short term success, but you're certainly not going to win long term. Playing well means grinding. But it can also be satisfying - being smart by cutting your losses constantly and then seeing the payoffs over time. You put in the effort, play right, and you expect to see profit.

Magic payouts, quite frankly, are garbage. I'm totally ok with that, because Magic is fast-paced and provides a visceral thrill, and I really enjoy the aspect of deck-building. I just think it's silly for people to treat it like a potentially profitable endeavor. You might spend $1000 on a Modern deck. How are you supposed to make your money back when you have to travel hundreds of miles to a tournament where the top prize is $3000? It's futile.

So I think it's right to go in another direction. Make a reward system that actually keeps people playing. Make the buy-ins smaller or eliminate them altogether. Or hell, just roll and the dice and make something new. Hearthstone has proved that the player base is there, if word-of-mouth gets going they could build something big. Find a way to make it accessible for anyone.

You have fish in Poker for the same reason you have fish in MTGO. They're playing for fun.

 

[Bandini]

You have fish in Poker for the same reason you have fish in MTGO. They're playing for fun.

Absolutely. I just feel like as time goes on, that pond is drying up more and more - for both MTG and poker. They need to find a way to bring more new ones in.

 

[kirblar]

Absolutely. I just feel like as time goes on, that pond is drying up more and more - for both MTG and poker. They need to find a way to bring more new ones in.

N.W.O. Game's bigger than it ever has been.

McCain fucking Online Poker back in '04 is whats hurting it now. It boomed when barrier to entry was hyper-low.

 

[The Technomancer]

MTG has never been healthier with new players. MTGO is the problem

 

[SigmasonicX]

Something I'd be willing to try out for a new online game is something that provides drafts only, for a much cheaper price since you wouldn't keep the cards afterward, provided that it's actually a modern game and not a 90's relic.

On another note

 

[Angry Grimace]

that sounds like phantom drafts

 

[charlequin]

Whether more people play isn't actually material, its about money. MTGO players spend a LOT for almost no cost on WOTC's end.

I think the fact that Hasbro is dumping a ton of money and effort into a brand-new Magic platform tells us that they aren't satisfied with a high return on zero investment and would rather work to get a higher top-line revenue instead.

I don't think this is correct at all.

People may not like it, but people will pay/play it anyway. People on a budget don't play MTG in the first place. The problem is that the user experience is so fucking miserable right now.

This depends a lot on how tightly you define business model, I think. I think people are willing to spend money to play Magic in a way that wouldn't apply equally to Hearthstone, but I think the pricing of cards online holds back a lot of potential players and there's a free-to-play market they really need to tap if they want this to be as successful as it can be.

 

[Ashodin]

Add to the fact that right now they could use a high-profile client that they could drive sales digitally and paper wise. They'll never stop making paper cards; so they need something that's easy to play and popular enough that players want to experience the unique pleasure of playing at FNM and prereleases.

 

["God's Beard!"]

What do you guys think of this UR Dragons list that Top 4'd a PTQ in Japan with 130+ players?

9 Island
7 Mountain
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
1 Highland Lake
4 Stratus Dancer
4 Rattlechains
4 Dimensional Infiltrator
4 Silumgar Sorcerer
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Whirler Rogue
4 Icefall Regent
4 Draconic Roar
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Void Shatter
SB:
4 Rending Volley
4 Fevered Visions
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Tears of Valakut
1 Roast


Flash creatures, counters, burn, and Silumgar Sorcerer tech to deal with Avacyn and problem creatures. I really like it and it is cheap as all hell.

rest of the top 8 was 4xBant Company, Abzan Midrange, Mono white humans, Mono red Eldrazi.

I tried a few games with it just now and to be honest I'm not super impressed. The creatures are pretty below rate against aggro decks so you can get tempo'd out pretty bad by stuff like mono white. It's good against control decks, though.

The nice thing is that my girlfriend played Temur Dragons last season so I already have access to 75% of the decklist in paper.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Most recent build:

Trying to make Mindwrack more consistent. It doesn't happen often, but I do lose to his triggers every once in a while. So I made the decision to fill the deck with a few more spells I could play proactively. Gather the Pack has been pretty good so far. Good synergy with Mindwrack, Pulse and Gitrog, and it's not hard to turn on since I'm spell heavy anyway. I'm considering swapping the 4th Transgress the Mind for a Clip Wings in the board, I dunno.

Also, WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TELL ME MINDWRACK HAD TRAMPLE?

I've been playing this card for weeks now and I just never noticed lol, I was happy enough with a 4/5 body.

edit: sorry about the double post, didn't check

 

[WanderingWind]

lol. Mindwrack is sort of my pet card this set. Well, that and Thalia's Lt., but everybody is playing that. Mindwrack isn't a great card, but it's a fun card. It's such a feel bad though when you have 3 card types in your yard, the trigger hits, you whiff and then your guy gets Ultimate Price'd.

As for the online discussion, WotC is up against the same thing they were up against with regards to the Reserved List. They can't instantaneously devalue everybody's online collection to zero dollars. They also can't continue a pricing structure that treats imaginary goods just as expensive as a real product, especially considering how difficult it is it to turn those imaginary cards into real world dollars. And for all the talk of Hearthstone, I'm not entirely convinced they have a lot of maneuver room chasing Blizzard in that arena. While of course they'd like to get Hearthstone's audience, I just don't think it's feasible.

Hearthstone was built from the ground up to be digital. Animations, special effects, abilities that only work online...these are things that Magic simply isn't built to do. The stack alone negates any real parity on that front. It's also worth pointing out that just because Hearthstone has an enormous audience, that doesn't mean WotC has any real chance of stealing any portion of it, or growing to that level. More than one company went bankrupt trying to become the next WoW. More than one company will go bankrupt trying to be the next LoL or DotA.

That's not to say they shouldn't do something, or aren't. But it's an insanely complex situation they've gotten themselves into. It's not going to be an easy fix and no matter what they end up doing with Next, people are going to be pissed off.

 

[lupin23rd]

If one were to be interested in acquiring some foreign black-bordered dual lands, is there a recommendation on where to find them for a decent price (and not have to worry about fakes)?

I've picked up a few from the big online shops but looking for Italian Bayou and Tundra, and not seeing those around from the usual suspects at least. Want to stick to Italian so I've got the old-school tap symbol (seen a bunch of German ones).

Hoping to get a set of one of each by the end of the year, although after Bayou I only have the blue ones left...

 

[Firemind]

If one were to be interested in acquiring some foreign black-bordered dual lands, is there a recommendation on where to find them for a decent price (and not have to worry about fakes)?

I've picked up a few from the big online shops but looking for Italian Bayou and Tundra, and not seeing those around from the usual suspects at least. Want to stick to Italian so I've got the old-school tap symbol (seen a bunch of German ones).

Hoping to get a set of one of each by the end of the year, although after Bayou I only have the blue ones left...

What have you gotten yourself into...

I considered this briefly, but no, not going down this rabbit hole.

 

[WanderingWind]

If one were to be interested in acquiring some foreign black-bordered dual lands, is there a recommendation on where to find them for a decent price (and not have to worry about fakes)?

I've picked up a few from the big online shops but looking for Italian Bayou and Tundra, and not seeing those around from the usual suspects at least. Want to stick to Italian so I've got the old-school tap symbol (seen a bunch of German ones).

Hoping to get a set of one of each by the end of the year, although after Bayou I only have the blue ones left...

Honestly, without being there to inspect them yourself and without knowing exactly what to look for, this is almost 100 percent guaranteed to lead to you getting sold fakes. They're too good and nobody cares enough to really crack down on it. Big money, international shipping, little regulation, easily forged...I put the odds of you getting actual, non-faked copies at about the same odds as me getting to make out with with the entire lineup of the Laker Girls while carrier pigeons drop dodo eggs at my feet.

 

[pelicansurf]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201436348]Most recent build:

Trying to make Mindwrack more consistent. It doesn't happen often, but I do lose to his triggers every once in a while. So I made the decision to fill the deck with a few more spells I could play proactively. Gather the Pack has been pretty good so far. Good synergy with Mindwrack, Pulse and Gitrog, and it's not hard to turn on since I'm spell heavy anyway. I'm considering swapping the 4th Transgress the Mind for a Clip Wings in the board, I dunno.

Also, WHY DIDN'T ANYBODY TELL ME MINDWRACK HAD TRAMPLE?

I've been playing this card for weeks now and I just never noticed lol, I was happy enough with a 4/5 body.

edit: sorry about the double post, didn't check[/QUOTE]
What do you do if someone resolves something dumb like an ulvenwald hydra in one of the slower games the deck can have?

 

[SigmasonicX]

Magic Story - Liliana's Indignation
* Liliana is visited by Raven Man, but she's unsure of if he's actually there or if it's just in her head.
* Jace attacks Liliana with his mind, creating illusions and such. He appears to use white magic to bind a bunch of her zombies. He's accusing her of being behind the Eldritch Moon.
* Apparently Liliana has never seen Jace lose a fight he planned ahead for, so he's Batman.
* Without her zombies to help, Liliana is just blasting black magic everywhere while both Jace and Raven Man taunt her.
* One of the Jaces expresses confusion at seeing Raven Man, so Liliana realizes he's the real one and blasts him with Liliana's Indignation.
* Liliana can't bring herself to kill Jace because Unresolved Sexual Tension. Raven Man groans and leaves.
* Jace explains his reasoning for accusing Liliana in a rambling and incoherent way. My favorite part (he's talking about the Chain Veil here):

"It's full of ghosts," he said. "Souls. And you want to be rid of the ghosts but keep their power for yourself. And if there's one thing they know about here, it's ghosts—"

Her throat tightened, and for a moment she thought he really had read her mind. Then he snapped his head to one side, where there was nothing but a silent zombie, holding him in place.

"Shut up!" he hissed. "Geists, fine! Who cares?"

* Liliana explains that she isn't behind any of the madness, and they go back to being buddy buddy.
* Liliana wants Jace to stay and rest, and get his head examined, but he refuses, and she calls him a baka. Jace thinks it would be a great idea to talk to Avacyn in person and leaves.
* After Jace leaves, an Igor named Gared tells Liliana that his master, Dierk, is ready to do Innistrad Science on the Chain Veil.
* Some hints that Raven Man really was there. So he really just visited Liliana to have a laugh?

The story was alright.

EDIT: Interesting historical document - the note Richard Garfield sent out on what should be done with later expansions of Magic (called Mana Clash at this time). I know that the rule about keeping rules text clear and simple at common wasn't followed.

 

[kirblar]

Kelly Digges is by far their strongest writer.

Liliana comparing Jace to a pet dog was amazing.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

* Liliana wants Jace to stay and rest, and get his head examined, but he refuses, and she calls him a baka. Jace thinks it would be a great idea to talk to Avacyn in person and leaves.

Sigh, Sorin couldn't have waited five more minutes and let Avacyn do one last piece of good before unmaking her?

 

["God's Beard!"]

What do you do if someone resolves something dumb like an ulvenwald hydra in one of the slower games the deck can have?

Well, I have 11 deathtouch creatures, 4 edicts, 2 downfalls and 4 grasp of darkness I can use as combat tricks.

 

[lupin23rd]

Honestly, without being there to inspect them yourself and without knowing exactly what to look for, this is almost 100 percent guaranteed to lead to you getting sold fakes. They're too good and nobody cares enough to really crack down on it. Big money, international shipping, little regulation, easily forged...I put the odds of you getting actual, non-faked copies at about the same odds as me getting to make out with with the entire lineup of the Laker Girls while carrier pigeons drop dodo eggs at my feet.

Are you saying even from if I purchased them from someone like StarCity or Hareruya that I'd be likely to end up with fakes, or is that more a concern with individual sellers / Ebay?

 

[charlequin]

Interesting historical document - the note Richard Garfield sent out on what should be done with later expansions of Magic (called Mana Clash at this time). I know that the rule about keeping rules text clear and simple at common wasn't followed.

It's funny to me how many of these are better followed and more strongly held now than they were in any of the early expansion sets, especially the thing about making sure commons are simple.

(Of course far and away the most prominent discussion on the reddit post is a ludicrous argument about the part where he uses the word "evil" in connection with black.)

 

[Ashodin]

I mean, black has a skull for its mana symbol

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I always felt that being a bad direction for black. It limits their designspace in regards to the colour pie when 1 colour is already predestined to evil and grotesque.

Maybe if we get a set based on egypt we'll get an interesting black for once.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Honestly, without being there to inspect them yourself and without knowing exactly what to look for, this is almost 100 percent guaranteed to lead to you getting sold fakes. They're too good and nobody cares enough to really crack down on it. Big money, international shipping, little regulation, easily forged...I put the odds of you getting actual, non-faked copies at about the same odds as me getting to make out with with the entire lineup of the Laker Girls while carrier pigeons drop dodo eggs at my feet.

An acquaintance of mine in high school was a Laker Girl.

I never made out with her, no. She wasn't impressed by my collection of Legends Elder Dragons.

 

[WanderingWind]

Are you saying even from if I purchased them from someone like StarCity or Hareruya that I'd be likely to end up with fakes, or is that more a concern with individual sellers / Ebay?

It's your money. Obviously, the big sellers are safer, but this isn't like buying a car or some other high-ticket item. Magic cards right now are ludicrously easy to counterfeit. When talking anything over the 50 dollar range, you really have to be smart. When talking about cards that are 300+ bucks a pop I just don't think the risk of potentially throwing your money at a literally worthless piece of cardboard is worth having a really neat card.

An acquaintance of mine in high school was a Laker Girl.

I never made out with her, no. She wasn't impressed by my collection of Legends Elder Dragons.

Psh. Her loss. Those cards are super sweet.

 

[El Topo]

Sigh, Sorin couldn't have waited five more minutes and let Avacyn do one last piece of good before unmaking her?

If we're honest Jace isn't really the problem.

 

[The Technomancer]

An acquaintance of mine in high school was a Laker Girl.

I never made out with her, no. She wasn't impressed by my collection of Legends Elder Dragons.

As much as you want to you cannot show it to the Laker girls. Keep Mr. Dragon in the pants. I know you wanted to show it to a Laker girl, but you must never show it to the Laker girls

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If we're honest Jace isn't really the problem.

Neither is he the solution.

 

[Ashodin]

I can see being so close to the Drownyard Temple made Jace go a bit bonkers.

 

[Angry Grimace]

As much as you want to you cannot show it to the Laker girls. Keep Mr. Dragon in the pants. I know you wanted to show it to a Laker girl, but you must never show it to the Laker girls

She wasn't a Laker Girl at the time, she was just a super hot girl in my math class. She was a nice girl, though, she ended up adding me on facebook a while back, which is good since IDK what the fuck my wife would say if I tried to friend request a Laker Girl.

It's your money. Obviously, the big sellers are safer, but this isn't like buying a car or some other high-ticket item. Magic cards right now are ludicrously easy to counterfeit. When talking anything over the 50 dollar range, you really have to be smart. When talking about cards that are 300+ bucks a pop I just don't think the risk of potentially throwing your money at a literally worthless piece of cardboard is worth having a really neat card.



Psh. Her loss. Those cards are super sweet.

I think the other issue is that there's a LOT of natural variance in random Third Edition cards to begin with. Even if you walked in with a 100% mint Revised Tundra and tried to run a comparison you'd have no clue if you were looking at a real or fake card.

 

[Ashodin]

Laker Girl!!!

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't understand the objection to black doing evil shit.

....yeah it does evil shit so?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Every colour does evil shit, giving evil a colour is limiting imo.

 

[TheBlackMarvel]

If we're honest Jace isn't really the problem.

No, but I find the character annoying as hell.

Every colour does evil shit, giving evil a colour is limiting imo.

100% this.

 

[ThLunarian]

The problem with giving "evil" a color is that everyone has different definitions of evil and no one thinks they themselves are evil. The philosophies of each color need to be described in a way that the color itself would agree with. White and Green would call black evil, sure. Red would call it liberated. Blue would call it a go-getter.

It's just not a good concept to include in a color's own philosophy.

 

[Joe Molotov]

I mean, black has a skull for its mana symbol

Red has a flame in it's symbol, but it's not like they print burn or anything.

 

[Ashodin]

Red has a flame in it's symbol, but it's not like they print burn or anything.

savage

They do still print fireballs tho

 

["God's Beard!"]

This discussion reminds me of the color pie I made a while back:

edit: fixed for diction

I wish I had a more selfish word than ambition for UB. Lot of combinations are ambitious. Shamanism is slightly awkward as well.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Dragons are red because they breathe fire and live on mountains despite the fact that in-game they should be green most of the time.

It's all arbitrary and thinking about it too hard is just mental masturbaiton.

 

[ThLunarian]

Dragons are red because they breathe fire and live on mountains despite the fact that in-game they should be green most of the time.

It's all arbitrary and thinking about it too hard is just mental masturbaiton.

The application of the principles when used to make cards can be arbitrary, and dragons are a good example of that, but the principles themselves are pretty robust. I'm pretty sure that someone smarter than me could legit write a philosophy book based around the color pie in the real world

 

[jph139]

I'd put the color pie next to, if not above, the D&D Alignment chart. It really is a great way to determine character ideology and such, even if its roots are pretty reductive.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Another issue with that are swamps, they are almost always dull and lacking life when swamps are some of the most densely populated and biodiverse areas irl.
That's why I like Lorwyn swamps so much, too river like though at times

 

[Ashodin]

This is why you don't play EDH in cockatrice

 

[The Technomancer]

I'd put the color pie next to, if not above, the D&D Alignment chart. It really is a great way to determine character ideology and such, even if its roots are pretty reductive.

It is, frankly, light-years above the D&D alignment system, in large part due to a lack of explicit good or evil

 

[inthrall]

So if I have access to zero flip-Jace and zero Avacyn, what should I play in standard next weekend?

 

[ThLunarian]

Some judges in California have filed a class action lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast for unpaid wages. Shaw et al v. Wizards of the Coast, LLC

Wizards has publicly responded to this suit: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/wizards-responds-lawsuits-2016-04-20

Whether or not this is an optimal vehicle to enact change, I hope this inspires someone who can actually put forth an effective case to do something about the unfairness of the entire WOTC judging system.