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[Matriox]

So if I have access to zero flip-Jace and zero Avacyn, what should I play in standard next weekend?

Gr Eldrazi ended up winning the open in Columbus last week?: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=101079

 

["God's Beard!"]

Turn 4 Bane of Bala Ged seals the deal once again.

 

[Ashodin]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201488692]Turn 4 Bane of Bala Ged seals the deal once again.[/QUOTE]

Mana issues continue to be the plague upon the game's existence

 

["God's Beard!"]

Mana issues continue to be the plague upon the game's existence

It's ok, your lands would have gotten annihilated anyway.

 

[ThLunarian]

Reposting for the new page.

Some judges in California have filed a class action lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast for unpaid wages. Shaw et al v. Wizards of the Coast, LLC

Wizards has publicly responded to this suit: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/wizards-responds-lawsuits-2016-04-20

Whether or not this is an optimal vehicle to enact change, I hope this inspires someone who can actually put forth an effective case to do something about the unfairness of the entire WOTC judging system.

 

[ultron87]

That's definitely fallout from the judge banning fiasco at the start of the year. Justin Turner is one of the plaintiffs. He's the Regional Coordinator for the U.S. Southeast, was probably the highest profile judge banned, and was super pissed about it on the Judgecast episode where they talked about that stuff. Part of their argument is likely that Wizards was able to suspend them as judges in this incident and prevent them from working, even though they supposedly aren't under Wizards' purview.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Black isn't evil, but black is the color most associated with evil traits. Black is ambitious, it's self-interested, and it's the color that most wants Power. None of these are bad by themselves, it's just that evil tends to have black traits.

 

[Firemind]

When are zombies ever not evil?

 

[ThLunarian]

When are zombies ever not evil?

Jesus Christ says hello?

In terms of motivations, zombies (at least the mindless ones) actually wouldn't be black. They run on pure instinct and aren't particularly interested in either carnage or self-advancement, and would probably be green (maybe with a dose of red). That goes back to what Grimace said about the distinction being arbitrary, and where tropes get in the way of color pie philosophy.

 

[Joe Molotov]

When are zombies ever not evil?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Jesus Christ says hello?

In terms of motivations, zombies (at least the mindless ones) actually wouldn't be black. They run on pure instinct and aren't particularly interested in either carnage or self-advancement, and would probably be green (maybe with a dose of red). That goes back to what Grimace said about the distinction being arbitrary, and where tropes get in the way of color pie philosophy.

Zombies go against the natural order which makes them the enemy of green. They'd fall in line with deathcults and be associated with black.

Even in DnD druids have boni against undead.

 

[ThLunarian]

Zombies go against the natural order which makes them the enemy of green. They'd fall in line with deathcults and be associated with black.

Even in DnD druids have boni against undead.

The magic that created them would be black, but I can't see any motivational reason for a mindless zombie to be black. They don't know that they're against the natural order; they're just following their insticts. No different than an animal.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The magic that created them would be black, but I can't see any motivational reason for a mindless zombie to be black. They don't know that they're against the natural order; they're just following their insticts. No different than an animal.

Yeah, but you the player are summoning them. It should require black mana to summon them.

 

[ThLunarian]

Yeah, but you the player are summoning them. It should require black mana to summon them.

A fair point. To be the most accurate to the color pie, a zombie would cost black mana to cast, but count as a green creature, I think

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

then every non domesticated animal creature would be green?

 

[ThLunarian]

then every non domesticated animal creature would be green?

To be accurate to the color pie, yes.

I'm not saying that's what they should actually do, but for the purposes of color pie adherence, that's exactly what should happen.


Some of the smarter animals might get a pass, like dolphins and crows and elephants and Apes.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I always preferred the idea of area of living. Lions live in the steppe which are plains and is white because of that. Rats should be black in a city landscape but white in the wild as they are rodents. Rodents being green doesn't make the most sense.

 

[charlequin]

Every colour does evil shit, giving evil a colour is limiting imo.

It doesn't "give evil a color" in the sense that anyone who's evil with a small e must be black; it's just labeling where a certain philosophy lives. A pretty big segment of the things people think of as "evil" lives under black's umbrella: thinking it's okay to be cruel to other people, or torture them, or steal things just because you want them, or kill people because they get in your way, or rule people with an iron fist. Most people who fall in these categories won't self-identify as "evil" certainly, but if someone uses the word these are the sorts of people that will quickly fall into the category.

(Also, it should be noted that demons exist in MTG, and in many cases they are actually a concrete manifestation of Evil with a capital E, fundamentally motivated to commit cruel and destructive acts, so there's some legitimate evil that clearly should be associated directly with black.)

Some judges in California have filed a class action lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast for unpaid wages. Shaw et al v. Wizards of the Coast, LLC

Good, I hope they nail WotC to the wall.

Dragons are red because they breathe fire and live on mountains despite the fact that in-game they should be green most of the time.

It's all arbitrary and thinking about it too hard is just mental masturbaiton.

"Arbitrary" isn't really the right word here. It's true that there isn't some "one true color pie" lying underneath that people are trying to reach, but you also can't just do anything whatsoever with the system without breaking it (and making a much worse game in the process.)

Instead, I'd say that like all good symbolic meaning systems, the color pie works because it's built on semantically powerful concepts (stuff like "law" and "nature" and "emotion" that people have strong associations with, but a wide range of interpretations of) and it divides them up in such a way that almost any person or idea can be slotted into them, and combining them can produce resonant new ideas (I'd say this is why gold blocks are always so popular.) There are tons of mechanical interpretations of it, and a certain amount of philosophical give, but ultimately some realizations are going to work better than others.

I do think Rosewater's entirely right that respecting and using the color pie is vital to designing good Magic sets, but I think he gives a little too much attention to the current execution rather than the philosophical underpinnings. There are lots of things that can make sense in the bigger picture of the game and be justified by color pie without anyone really blinking and without breaking anything, but which don't hew perfectly to the idea of This Is Our Exact Mechanical Color Pie of today. It'd be better off if he'd just accept that supplemental sets are gonna print non-Standard-legal cards that fit a different, broader picture of the color pie and That's Okay.

Zombies go against the natural order which makes them the enemy of green. They'd fall in line with deathcults and be associated with black.

Really properly they should be green/black (an unnatural intervention that produces an instinctual, unthinking predator), which is why Golgari is far and away the best graveyard faction ever. I think to really sell the black zombies you have to accept that even instinctive, animal-level creatures can be black if they bring death and disease (i.e. zombies are just giant undead humanoid rats.)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It doesn't "give evil a color" in the sense that anyone who's evil with a small e must be black; it's just labeling where a certain philosophy lives. A pretty big segment of the things people think of as "evil" lives under black's umbrella: thinking it's okay to be cruel to other people, or torture them, or steal things just because you want them, or kill people because they get in your way, or rule people with an iron fist. Most people who fall in these categories won't self-identify as "evil" certainly, but if someone uses the word these are the sorts of people that will quickly fall into the category.

(Also, it should be noted that demons exist in MTG, and in many cases they are actually a concrete manifestation of Evil with a capital E, fundamentally motivated to commit cruel and destructive acts, so there's some legitimate evil that clearly should be associated directly with black.)

steal things just because you want them - that's blue (black mugs)
rule people with an iron fist - that's white

Black can have biblically evil but the way it's used often has black at comically evil instead.

Much of that umbrella also just sounds red to me. No one but comically evil will self identify as evil. Even demons are just following their nature, which is technically evil, but doesn't make them evil.

 

[Ashodin]

the MTGO beta is up again! Who wants to fight!?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I've been in a queue for 10 minutes and a very bad sealed pod. Who wants a rare that lets defenders attack in sealed?

 

[Ashodin]

I've been in a queue for 10 minutes and a very bad sealed pod. Who wants a rare that lets defenders attack in sealed?

lol Assault Formationnnnn

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Actually got the old white and wprse version

Lost the first match in the standard league against Grixis minus blue and while I played game 2 pretty loose and deserved to loose game 3 was just my opponent drawing way better. I saw his hand turn 2 from a duress and with zero removal he just drew 1 removal spell after the other. Left me very salty.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Avacyn looks sarcastic

 

[SigmasonicX]

Avacyn looks sarcastic

That reminds me, I watched the Flash / Supergirl TV crossover, and the latter's version of Livewire is basically an Avacyn cosplayer.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Ramp is a really bad matchup for me, especially while lacking lands already.
I was at 4 lands after 2 painful truths for 3.

 

[charlequin]

steal things just because you want them - that's blue (black mugs)

This is pretty arguable. Blue (and red for that matter) has no problem with theft, but only black is going to do it and justify it purely by the idea that they should just get whatever selfish desires they want.

rule people with an iron fist - that's white

This one definitely not. White can be authoritarian but your typical petty dictators and totalitarians are very much black. A harsh white regime is still fundamentally built on rule of law (even if that law is stifling and cruel) while a black dictator will do whatever they want.

Even demons are just following their nature, which is technically evil, but doesn't make them evil.

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[keeblerdrow]

MTGGoldfish Against the Odds Triskaidekaphobia is up. He loses the very first game to his own enchantment cause he tunnel visioned on their life total and didn't pay attention that he was at 13 himself. Yep.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

This is pretty arguable. Blue (and red for that matter) has no problem with theft, but only black is going to do it and justify it purely by the idea that they should just get whatever selfish desires they want.

Let me preface I'm talking here how it is in magic imo not how I'd like it to be.

Black as is always has a malicious side to it, stealing alone I'd argue isn't enough for black in its current form.
Ninjutsu is a good example of the difference imo.

This one definitely not. White can be authoritarian but your typical petty dictators and totalitarians are very much black. A harsh white regime is still fundamentally built on rule of law (even if that law is stifling and cruel) while a black dictator will do whatever they want.

Rule with an iron fist fist doesn't say anything about law and is much more white than black. Authoritarian, martial law, military rule are all frequently seen in white and all of those fall under that. Black's rulers rule with intimidation, bribery, intrigue, murder,... much more underhanded than iron fist.

That doesn't make any sense.

The lack of choice makes the difference, demon's don't choose to be demons and they don't choose to act like demons. It's their nature and following one's nature isn't evil, even if that nature is being perceived as evil.

 

[charlequin]

Rule with an iron fist fist doesn't say anything about law and is much more white than black.

No, I don't think this is accurate to how the idiom is used. Nobody says "rule with an iron fist" to talk about harsh but fair regimes, it pretty much requires an element of capricious or arbitrary action in preserving the ruler's control. That aside: whether or not this is the right way to refer to it, the concept of a totalitarian ruler who just uses force to crush insurrections and doesn't care about rule of law is entirely black.

The lack of choice makes the difference, demon's don't choose to be demons and they don't choose to act like demons.

That's just kind of inventing setting details. Demons in Magic are intelligent and self-motivated, there's no underlying concept of them following some abstract nature to do what they do.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Rise from the Tides is a good card.

Pore over the Pages -> Nagging Thoughts is the wombo combo.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

No, I don't think this is accurate to how the idiom is used. Nobody says "rule with an iron fist" to talk about harsh but fair regimes, it pretty much requires an element of capricious or arbitrary action in preserving the ruler's control. That aside: whether or not this is the right way to refer to it, the concept of a totalitarian ruler who just uses force to crush insurrections and doesn't care about rule of law is entirely black.

It's neither unique to black or white any colour can rule with an Iron Fist, heck even Radha (RG) did it in the books.

That's just kind of inventing setting details. Demons in Magic are intelligent and self-motivated, there's no underlying concept of them following some abstract nature to do what they do.

Considering there's next to no lore to demons in MTG that I know of and that it could vary by plane that's hard to say. Just because they are intelligent doesn't mean they aren't just following their nature. Whether they are self motivated or not is arguable. If they were, why wouldn't there be demons doing undemony stuff. The sign of choice would be that there have been exceptions.

 

[WanderingWind]

I think a dictator who believed themselves to be serving the greater good would be white. One who knew that he was doing things to remain in power would be black.

 

["God's Beard!"]

This might be the best limited format for control decks in the past several years, but I don't know if you can actually draft the deck without Rise From the Tides.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Fabrizio Anteri begs to disagree with his RW all the combat tricks.dec

 

[WanderingWind]

Are there any other MTG video makers besides
• ChannelFireBall
• MTGGoldfish
• Modern Maniacs

I'm stuck at work and need some stuff to put on in the background.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I joined a game with a dude named Spooky and I was hoping it was the fgc stream runner, but he was super afk despite having made a new room.

Boo.

 

[WanderingWind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201523098]I joined a game with a dude named Spooky and I was hoping it was the fgc stream runner, but he was super afk despite having made a new room.

Boo.[/QUOTE]

Yo, you thought I went AFK because I switched to the private chat. Cockatrice isn't as polished as it could be.

 

[charlequin]

Considering there's next to no lore to demons in MTG that I know of and that it could vary by plane that's hard to say.

There's tons of backstory stuff, plus the whole Liliana plotline is all about how demons behave.

Just because they are intelligent doesn't mean they aren't just following their nature.

At this point it's a tautology. Yes, if we're going to get in a freshman-year philosophy argument about what free will really means, man then I don't think I have a good counterargument, but I kind of don't know what you're trying to prove here. Demons in MTG are intelligent beings that have a self-identified agenda of evil, and they're black by color identity because that's one of the things that falls under black's pie. Whether it's "in their nature" to do that doesn't really come into the picture anywhere.

I think a dictator who believed themselves to be serving the greater good would be white. One who knew that he was doing things to remain in power would be black.

Again, not a capricious one. Like, I think you could split hairs into an opportunistic dictator with no respect for the law being black/white if their motives were intensely white, but in general if someone uses power to get what they want without respect for any underlying rule of law that's always going to be black in identity.

 

[Haly]

I wonder if any demon's tried to reform himself.

Like maybe one day he woke up and went: "wait, do I really need to feed on the souls of the innocent?"

 

[Ashodin]

I wonder if any demon's tried to reform himself.

Like maybe one day he woke up and went: "wait, do I really need to feed on the souls of the innocent?"

Repentant Vampire is an awesome card btw

 

[keeblerdrow]

Are there any other MTG video makers besides
• ChannelFireBall
• MTGGoldfish
• Modern Maniacs

I'm stuck at work and need some stuff to put on in the background.

Twitch streams are a go-to when you're bored. If you want solid modern action watch Jeff Hoogland archives from this week forward. Catch some rebroadcasts this time of night or do what I do: watch Hareruya's stream. It's usually 4-5 rounds of magic live from Japan. I've gotten a few solid card ideas from watching a non-American meta more than a few times.

 

[WanderingWind]

Twitch streams are a go-to when you're bored. If you want solid modern action watch Jeff Hoogland archives from this week forward. Catch some rebroadcasts this time of night or do what I do: watch Hareruya's stream. It's usually 4-5 rounds of magic live from Japan. I've gotten a few solid card ideas from watching a non-American meta more than a few times.

Forgot about Hoogland, thanks. Twitch is a no-go at work, but SFW YouTube is cool.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

There's tons of backstory stuff, plus the whole Liliana plotline is all about how demons behave.

I really didn't follow that storyline much but from what I gathered Liliana made a pact with 5 or so demons, not a very good one considering she can breach it just by murdering them apparently, but that doesn't say much about demons and their motives just what they do.
Demons as the iconic black creature type get as much backstory as dragons do which is next to nil.

At this point it's a tautology. Yes, if we're going to get in a freshman-year philosophy argument about what free will really means, man then I don't think I have a good counterargument, but I kind of don't know what you're trying to prove here. Demons in MTG are intelligent beings that have a self-identified agenda of evil, and they're black by color identity because that's one of the things that falls under black's pie. Whether it's "in their nature" to do that doesn't really come into the picture anywhere.

This argument started when demons were brought forth as to why black has to be evil. I tried arguing against that by saying demons aren't actually evil.
Free will is a fascinating subject but one I never found a satisfying answer to personally.

Again, not a capricious one. Like, I think you could split hairs into an opportunistic dictator with no respect for the law being black/white if their motives were intensely white, but in general if someone uses power to get what they want without respect for any underlying rule of law that's always going to be black in identity.

Or red. I really don't see anything underlyingly black in this.

 

[WanderingWind]

Again, not a capricious one. Like, I think you could split hairs into an opportunistic dictator with no respect for the law being black/white if their motives were intensely white, but in general if someone uses power to get what they want without respect for any underlying rule of law that's always going to be black in identity.

White is about law and order. If a dictator truly believed themselves to be providing that, he'd be an example of the bad side of white's tendencies. For there to be a respect for rule of law, that first has to exist and it has to establish that all governments must be mandated by the people. You can't break a rule of law if that isn't a concept.

 

[Ashodin]

UR control dies horribly to my RW equipment!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Sinister concoction is really good to flip jace, might try more than 1 mainboard.

 

[A Serious Man]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";201521082]This might be the best limited format for control decks in the past several years, but I don't know if you can actually draft the deck without Rise From the Tides.[/QUOTE]

I'm not embarrassed to admit I've drafted multiple Rise decks that never found a Rise. You can still win, it's just going to take awhile. Stitchwing Skaab and Stormrider Spirit have done some real work for me. Mill is also an option but it's hard to pull off since everything you need is at uncommon.

 

[ThLunarian]

Again, "evil" can't be part of any color's identity because none of them would use the word to describe themselves. If you asked a demon in MTG "Are you evil?" The demon wouldn't say "Yes I am! Mwahahaha!" They would just say something like "No. I just enjoy my freedom and my ability to get what I want by exploiting others who aren't smart or strong enough to resist me. The evil ones are the made-up societies that prevent me and others from realizing our true potential."

The society we live in and the ideals we have are what make us believe that demons are evil. The color itself isn't inherently evil. It's moral relativism.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Again, "evil" can't be part of any color's identity because none of them would use the word to describe themselves. If you asked a demon in MTG "Are you evil?" The demon wouldn't say "Yes I am! Mwahahaha!" They would just say something like "No. I just enjoy my freedom and my ability to get what I want by exploiting others who aren't smart or strong enough to resist me. The evil ones are the made-up societies that prevent me and others from realizing our true potential."

The society we live in and the ideals we have are what make us believe that demons are evil. The color itself isn't inherently evil. It's moral relativism.

I think Ob Nixilis would.