Support NeoGAF

[chicko1983]

Spoiler

If the identity of the bones were not brought into question by the defense team, then it was most likely not a relevant issue to broach.

I'm not sure what the coincidence is regarding finding a jaw bone? I guess you're suggesting that the jaw bone was not tested because it would prove to belong to another person?

It seems pretty clear that the body was moved in some capacity from the quarry to the fire pit using the barrel (or at least that's how everything was staged to appear, we don't know for certain). What I don't understand is why you believe the police substituted in a second corpse. For what purpose? What would be the logistics of even doing this? Especially when it would requite bones ranging from the skull all the way down to the shin (essentially a full corpse). And then burning them and placing them in multiple locations, planting Theresa's DNA (from where exactly?), all without having Theresa's actual body? What if her true body was later discovered?

I mean, come on now.

Spoiler

No, I initially thought they only found a jaw bone without any teeth, which is weird. However, it turns out that they did find some teeth, but a positive identification of Theressa could not be made.

The article I just posted shows that the identity of the bones was brought into question by the defense.

Neither the dentist or the forensic anthropologist or the police officer who found the remains could definitively conclude it was Theressa, the race and stature of the body, how she was killed, that it was a complete body or if it was more than one body. All of these people were engaged by the state as well.

The only evidence which concluded it was Theressa's bones was DNA which was confirmed by the State Crime Lab, which I would question their motive to prove it was done.

If anyone can get a full corpse, even one already burnt, it would be the cops. What is their motive - shit, they need a body to be found on the plot. It is extremely difficult to convict a murder without a clear motive, finding a murder weapon, and finding a body (in Australia, it would be impossible to convict without at least two of those things according to the discussion I had with my old man over Christmas, who is a former judge). In Steven's case - they did not have any of those three key elements for a conviction. The cops had a huge motive to plant bones and call it Theressa's.

As for if they find the real body of Theressa - its going to be hard to find a body when the cops are not even looking for it. The search party was directed by the cops. They let the search party onto the Avery yard when they found the car. The ex-boyfriend was taking direction of where to search from the cops, if you recall his interview on the news. Also, the defense did ask why further searching for body didnt continue after the bones in the burn pit were found - the cops answer "I believe we did", but I doubt they did.

 

[knkng]

Spoiler

No, I initially thought they only found a jaw bone without any teeth, which is weird. However, it turns out that they did find some teeth, but a positive identification of Theressa could not be made.

The article I just posted shows that the identity of the bones was brought into question by the defense.

Neither the dentist or the forensic anthropologist or the police officer who found the remains could definitively conclude it was Theressa, the race and stature of the body, how she was killed, that it was a complete body or if it was more than one body. All of these people were engaged by the state as well.

The only evidence which concluded it was Theressa's bones was DNA which was confirmed by the State Crime Lab, which I would question their motive to prove it was done.

If anyone can get a full corpse, even one already burnt, it would be the cops. What is their motive - shit, they need a body to be found on the plot. It is extremely difficult to convict a murder without a clear motive, finding a murder weapon, and finding a body (in Australia, it would be impossible to convict without at least two of those things according to the discussion I had with my old man over Christmas, who is a former judge). In Steven's case - they did not have any of those three key elements for a conviction. The cops had a huge motive to plant bones and call it Theressa's.

As for if they find the real body of Theressa - its going to be hard to find a body when the cops are not even looking for it. The search party was directed by the cops. They let the search party onto the Avery yard when they found the car. The ex-boyfriend was taking direction of where to search from the cops, if you recall his interview on the news. Also, the defense did ask why further searching for body didnt continue after the bones in the burn pit were found - the cops answer "I believe we did", but I doubt they did.

Fair enough, I'll concede that there is a possibility that this could have taken place. But it seems way too outlandish to me (even considering many of the other aspects of this case).

Spoiler

I mean, the body is the easy part. Whoever did this clearly already had access to the vehicle (with her blood in it), the ignition key, and the entire Avery property at various points in time. I don't see why they would need to "fake" the body. She was killed, just use her corpse. Why even risk bringing in outside elements as dangerous as an alternate corpse?

It just doesn't add up for me.

 

[chicko1983]

Fair enough, I'll concede that there is a possibility that this could have taken place. But it seems way too outlandish to me (even considering many of the other aspects of this case).

Spoiler

I mean, the body is the easy part. Whoever did this clearly already had access to the vehicle (with her blood in it), the ignition key, and the entire Avery property at various points in time. I don't see why they would need to "fake" the body. She was killed, just use her corpse. Why even risk bringing in outside elements as dangerous as an alternate corpse?

It just doesn't add up for me.

Spoiler

They need to fake the body because they could never find the body. It may have been that they assumed they would find the body on the Avery yard, or elsewhere, but couldnt. So without a body its bloody hard to convict Avery, hence they planted it.

The defense lawyer asks the same question at some point "why take these sorts of risks to convict someone?" and his answer to his own question is "because they never thought they would be caught".

My own opinion is this is the timeline of events, the normal font is fact, the italic font is my own opinion:

Oct. 31, 2005: Freelance photographer Teresa Halbach, of St. John in Calumet County, vanishes. That day, she had three appointments to photograph vehicles for sale for Auto Trader magazine. The Avery Auto Salvage was slated to be her last stop of the day.

Sometime between Oct 31 and Nov 3 the Police officer rings in dispatch to check a Rav 4 with the same number plate. I think this was before she is even reported missing. This is where the police see their opportunity to frame Steven Avery (SA). However there is no body with the car. The car is moved to the Avery's plot sometime between when the Avery's are kicked off the property and Nov. 5

Nov. 3, 2005: Tom and Karen Halbach report their 25-year-old daughter missing.

Nov. 5, 2005: Volunteer searchers discover Halbach's SUV inside the Avery Auto Salvage yard, which was operated by Avery's brothers, Earl and Charles. Police impound Halbach's vehicle and take it to the Wisconsin crime lab.

This discovery is needed for the cops to take control off the auto yard without any limitation on time for their search. If the car had not been found, it is impossible for the law authorities to give unlimited access to the site and kick people off their own property indefinitely. The Avery's were offsite for 8 days! longer than 24hrs is not usual, however, finding the car gives the cops the basis they need to have an extended search warrant. Lenk plants blood from the vial in the car to assist with conviction

Nov. 6: As many as 200 police officers comb the Avery salvage yard.

but they cannot find the murder scene, the murder weapon, or the body

Nov. 9: Authorities arrest Avery for being a felon in possession of a firearm.

This is important to note. I think the cops assumed they would find the body somewhere on the property given they can tie the car to Avery. The cops honestly believe he is guilty, due to their own prejudices, however they cannot prove it at this stage as they havent found a body. Hence they arrest him for being in possession of a firearm - something they can prove - and not murder

Nov. 10: Calumet County Sheriff Jerry Pagel announces that Halbach was murdered at the salvage yard. Bone fragments, teeth and camera and cellphone pieces are found in a burn pit near Avery's trailer.

I believe that sometime between 9th and 10th of November, some remains, most likely not Halbach's, are brought to site and planted in the pit. Her camera and cellphone could have easily have been found in her car and burnt along with the bones to add to the effect the bones are in fact Theressa's.
The planting of the bones it for a couple of reasons - they have not been able to find her body anywhere, and they want Steven guilty.


Nov. 15: Calumet County special prosecutor Ken Kratz charges Avery with first-degree intentional homicide, mutilation of a corpse and possession of firearms by a felon. Kratz announces that Avery's blood was found inside of Halbach's vehicle and that Avery was the last person to see her alive.

Jan. 17, 2006: Avery pleads not guilty and insists he is innocent.

Jan. 19, 2006: A laboratory determines that the remains found at the Avery salvage yard are Halbach.

this lab result cannot be trusted in my opinion.
Also, really burnt bones, like the ones from a huge bonfire, are extremely difficult for DNA to obtained from: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y6190/scientific_study_claims_reliability_of_dna/

 

[Lkr]

have you guys looked into any theories about who the killer could have been? this theory popped up on reddit, and people have now tracked down the ex husband and "the citizen" in this story over on /r/makingamurderer, shit is getting interesting to say the least
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y1ms3/an_alternate_theory_continued_spoilers/

 

[Quote]

Originally when I saw the trailer I thought there was no way this could be better than The Jinx, especially with the way The Jinx ends. Just finishing it, it's just as good if not better. What a crazy contrast in both of these documentaries.

Steven Avery always seemed so genuine and defeated. Yet, everyone against him that was put on the stand was so fucking shady. Every single one of them had at least one time where they said "I didn't say that" then they'd play the fucking tape and it would show they said something incriminating, AT BEST. I cannot believe how many times conflicts of interests were just hand waved. Colburn and Lenk should have had zero involvement with this case, but they have negative integrity and anything to do with them should have been thrown out.

Unlike Serial, where I came away irked by publicizing a possible murderer, i'm left heart broken for the Avery family, especially the nephew.

Huge props to Steven's lawyers.

Spoiler

Although they didn't win

, I don't think anyone could have done it better. Movie lawyers are not even that good compared.

 

[KarmaCow]

have you guys looked into any theories about who the killer could have been? this theory popped up on reddit, and people have now tracked down the ex husband and "the citizen" in this story over on /r/makingamurderer, shit is getting interesting to say the least
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y1ms3/an_alternate_theory_continued_spoilers/

This is the dark side of stuff like this, with people who think they're qualified to investigate people they think are involved and make judgement calls.

 

[chicko1983]

have you guys looked into any theories about who the killer could have been? this theory popped up on reddit, and people have now tracked down the ex husband and "the citizen" in this story over on /r/makingamurderer, shit is getting interesting to say the least
http://www.convolutedbrian.com/an-alternative.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3y1ms3/an_alternate_theory_continued_spoilers/

whoa, crazy.

But I like Karma Cow said, I dont like non law type people investigating this type of thing.

You wouldnt want to do something that may make it hard to use good information in court.

 

[FZZ]

Kratz is a slimy slug looking cunt who sounds like a castrated mule.

I have never seen a more villainous looking motherfucker than him, he looks more and more crazy as the show goes on.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Episode 2 spoilers but...

Spoiler

That thing about Gregory Allen apparently bragging about how Avery took the fall for the crime he committed sounds crazy. Like that seemed pretty weird for someone to admit to that, but then again this Allen dude sounds fucking bonkers so I can believe he'd brag about it.

Dude's like legitimately evil based on what I've learned about him.

 

[knkng]

Spoiler

Nov. 10: Calumet County Sheriff Jerry Pagel announces that Halbach was murdered at the salvage yard. Bone fragments, teeth and camera and cellphone pieces are found in a burn pit near Avery's trailer.

I believe that sometime between 9th and 10th of November, some remains, most likely not Halbach's, are brought to site and planted in the pit. Her camera and cellphone could have easily have been found in her car and burnt along with the bones to add to the effect the bones are in fact Theressa's.
The planting of the bones it for a couple of reasons - they have not been able to find her body anywhere, and they want Steven guilty.

Spoiler

See, this is where it falls apart for me. If the bones were brought in specifically by the police, then why would they also place them in the quarry and the barrel, suggesting that Avery moved the bones back to his residence after burning them in the quarry? It's counter to what Avery would have logically done, and counter to the story that they were presenting in court (that she was killed and burned in the fire pit).

It's much more logical that the quarry was the kill site, and the bones were moved from there in order to frame Avery. That would mean either:

1) Theresa was killed by a third party (such as the ex boyfriend, etc.) who then moved the vehicle and body back to the Avery residence to divert all suspicion towards Avery. This would also be logical since the killer most likely made contact with her after she left the residence, hence using the "last person to see her" tactic, not to mention the Avery reputation would be an easy cover up (just dump the body in his yard and he will be blamed). The police then moved the case forward by planting the blood, key and eventual bullet.

2) The police discovered the original murder site at the quarry and moved the vehicle and body themselves in order to frame Avery. Or they discovered the vehicle elsewhere, moved it, and then a little ways further into the investigation discovered the body at the quarry and moved that as well.

I guess you could make the argument that the police used the quarry site to burn the replacement corpse (simply as a convenient location), and then moved it from there. But how could they be so sloppy as to leave portions of bone behind? Why use Avery's barrel to transport the bones? Why not simply suppress that they were ever found there if some were left by accident? It certainly doesn't benefit their narrative, and is especially bizarre if we are to believe that they had full control over every aspect of the bones used.

And again, I just can't get over the potential for something to go wrong by stealing a corpse and planting it at a crime scene. Especially with the real body still missing. I know they're crooked cops and all that, but they can't make the body of Theresa discovered in a local creek bed by some kids just vanish from existence (if it were to play out like this). It's a gamble of absurd proportions. With a missing body, it leaves the whole cover-up hanging by a thread, and potentially in the hands of the public at large.

 

[chicko1983]

Spoiler

See, this is where it falls apart for me. If the bones were brought in specifically by the police, then why would they also place them in the quarry and the barrel, suggesting that Avery moved the bones back to his residence after burning them in the quarry? It's counter to what Avery would have logically done, and counter to the story that they were presenting in court (that she was killed and burned in the fire pit).

It's much more logical that the quarry was the kill site, and the bones were moved from there in order to frame Avery. That would mean either:

1) Theresa was killed by a third party (such as the ex boyfriend, etc.) who then moved the vehicle and body back to the Avery residence to divert all suspicion towards Avery. This would also be logical since the killer most likely made contact with her after she left the residence, hence using the "last person to see her" tactic, not to mention the Avery reputation would be an easy cover up (just dump the body in his yard and he will be blamed). The police then moved the case forward by planting the blood, key and eventual bullet.

2) The police discovered the original murder site at the quarry and moved the vehicle and body themselves in order to frame Avery. Or they discovered the vehicle elsewhere, moved it, and then a little ways further into the investigation discovered the body at the quarry and moved that as well.

I guess you could make the argument that the police used the quarry site to burn the replacement corpse (simply as a convenient location), and then moved it from there. But how could they be so sloppy as to leave portions of bone behind? Why use Avery's barrel to transport the bones? Why not simply suppress that they were ever found there if some were left by accident? It certainly doesn't benefit their narrative, and is especially bizarre if we are to believe that they had full control over every aspect of the bones used.

And again, I just can't get over the potential for something to go wrong by stealing a corpse and planting it at a crime scene. Especially with the real body still missing. I know they're crooked cops and all that, but they can't make the body of Theresa discovered in a local creek bed by some kids just vanish from existence (if it were to play out like this). It's a gamble of absurd proportions. With a missing body, it leaves the whole cover-up hanging by a thread, and potentially in the hands of the public at large.

I gave the read of the reddit alternative theory.

If that is correct:

Spoiler

the body and car of Theressa was found at an alternate site, before Nov. 3. the body may have been burnt or partly burnt, but most likely mutilated earlier. If that story is correct (which is a big IF, but I like the theory) then dogs have played and potentially moved bones. So that could mean that when the cops found the body of Theressa, the body was already incomplete.

So, if the body is incomplete and the cops need to plant it on Avery, by having two burn sites it is easier to explain why they could not find a complete skeleton. There were never enough bones found, according to the forensic pathologist, to conclude that the body was the same size or race as Theresa.

The cops may have also needed to burn additional evidence which would have potentially cleared his name i.e. any clothing with with a third party's DNA on it. So maybe they lit a fire at the quarry, threw some stuff in it, then move the fire remnants down to the pit closer to the household.

What doesnt fit the narrative of SA having done it is why the hell would he have multiple burn sites: If he burnt her body in the quarry, why move remains closer to his house? If he burnt her near the house, why not move all of the body away from the house, especially if he allegedly cleaned up the house, garage, car apart from a couple specks of blood.

So if the reddit story is true - there was no second body. However, the cops did plant it on the Avery yard. That I can believe.

 

[KrisB]

Watched the first two eps before. Decent series, looking forward to seeing the rest of it.

 

[Fantastical]

That reddit theory creeped me out. Probably nothing but... ugh

 

[Dr.Acula]

Spoiler

My theory is the killer encountered Theresa, bashed her head in, threw her in the back of her car, and drove the body to the quarry to burn it.

Then either one of two scenarios. One, the murderer decides to frame Avery, goes over to Avery's to scope the place out, picks up a barrel, fills it with Theresa's bones from the quarry (missing some) dumped the bones in Avery's pit, returns the barrel, and dumps the car (possibly at Avery's).

Two, the cops find the remains at the quarry (and possibly the car there, or at another site) get a barrel from Avery's, transport the bones to the pit themselves.

 

[Nyx]

Spoiler

After watching the entire series I think both Steven and Brandon are innocent, or at least should not have been convicted as there's reasonable doubt that they were involved. There were so many things that didn't add up.

Based on this show I would gave definitely investigated Steven's brother in law and Brandon's older brother. They were eachother's alibi (saw eachother on the road at a certain time while the high school bus driver said it was at a different time) and they both knew Steven would be easy to blame.

Theresa probably left Steven's property after making the photo's she needed and Brandon's brother saw her leave and went after her, maybe with Scott Tadych or he joined up later. I mean they both said they went hunting at the time Theresa went missing. Also, Steven said that when he went back outside both Theresa's and Brandon's brother's car were gone iirc.

They both looked shady as fuck when they were called up as witness too.

The police did help make the case to blame Steven by planting the key, blood in the car and bullet, but I think it definitely was a third party that killed Halbach.

Oh and yes, Kratz is the devil, what a scumbag....

 

[BananaPancake]

I really enjoy documentaries about this topic. Looking forward to watching it, thanks for the heads up OP.

That trailer looked amazing. So shocking although I'm not surprised at all, I've seen too many stories like that. It's very sad.

 

[EightBitNate]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/top/

Spoiler

This sub has been giving me hope that justice will be found for Steven and Brendan. The alternative theory, the fact that a juror was the father of a sheriff from Manitowoc, and the new evidence possibility all make me think that a new trial is possible. Hope the county is shitting itself right now.

 

[LJ11]

I shouldn't have pushed through the last two episodes, pretty crushing and it's going to ruin my sleep!

Brendan was screwed the most,

Spoiler

fact that he can't get a redo, fuck. There was fucking nothing tying him to this shit outside of that fucking ridiculous confession.

He did it to himself.

With regards to Steven, there's just so many inconsistencies, I don't know if he did or didn't do it, there's just no way to know beyond a reasonable doubt.

Spoiler

The garage and trailer are spotless and yet he doesn't turn the car into a tin can? No fingerprints at all inside or outside the vehicle yet manages to get blood stains in the vehicle. Not crazy, rip in the glove, but again, why leave the car under some comically placed tree branches? Bones in the yard, fucking scary to think the cops would do this shit, could they really pull this shit off without one fucker speaking out or fucking it up in general? Hardest part to believe. Steven riding around with her in the back, her blood everywhere, but chooses to keep the vehicle in tact under some tree branches and some hood, LOL.

So many questions.

Feel for the family, at least with the way they are depicted. Show starts off describing the Avery's as outcasts, town dislikes them, but the audience really doesn't learn why the town hates the Avery's.

Spoiler

Until that lunatic detective/investigator, who I hesitate to believe anyway, testifies in episode 9 about the incest and other garbage they seemed like decent folks. There's more here that we aren't getting, or I'm just focusing on it more than I should.

Tragic for all the parties involved. Series has spawned Steven Avery truethers, there's no fucking stopping this train.

 

[LJ11]

double post, it's late.

 

[Syph Medwes]

Haven't watched this yet but how can this type of show have multiple seasons? Can someone try and explain without spoiling anything perhaps?

 

[Nyx]

Haven't watched this yet but how can this type of show have multiple seasons? Can someone try and explain without spoiling anything perhaps?

Other cases perhaps?

 

[tim.mbp]

Haven't watched this yet but how can this type of show have multiple seasons? Can someone try and explain without spoiling anything perhaps?

I believe they started filming in 2005, production for 10 years. Would make it pretty tough for multiple seasons.

 

[The Illiterati]

Haven't watched this yet but how can this type of show have multiple seasons? Can someone try and explain without spoiling anything perhaps?

There's not likely going to be more seasons, just the way it is listed.

 

[FZZ]

Tbh all this show has made me realize is how outdated, flawed, and completely asinine the American judicial system is.

Choosing jurors of your "peers" who come in with clear biases, often don't have the expertise or education to deal with such great matters such as another person's life is complete nonsense.

 

[EightBitNate]

Other cases perhaps?

That's what Serial is doing, I believe.

Edit: Serial S2 started already?!

 

[Vampire On Titus]

I

Spoiler

Bones in the yard, fucking scary to think the cops would do this shit, could they really pull this shit off without one fucker speaking out or fucking it up in general? Hardest part to believe.

Spoiler

Not really imo. It wouldn't necessarily have to be that many cops directly involved for the fix to be on. Especially if some of them didn't know all the details and thought they were doing the right thing. A few more steps removed you get someone like the lab tech who's essentially told "get us the results we want." She's playing a big part in the frame job, but could be completely unaware that's the case. Consider that there's several people straight up caught on tape coercing Brendan's testimony and it's not like they came clean.

 

[wapplew]

Too much reasonable doubt to call guilty. Feel sorry for Brendon especially.

Side note, whatever jail they in, they must be providing so much food since they gain a lot of weight. /jk

 

[knkng]

Spoiler

So if the reddit story is true - there was no second body. However, the cops did plant it on the Avery yard. That I can believe.

This is the way I am leaning as well.

Spoiler

My theory is the killer encountered Theresa, bashed her head in, threw her in the back of her car, and drove the body to the quarry to burn it.

Then either one of two scenarios. One, the murderer decides to frame Avery, goes over to Avery's to scope the place out, picks up a barrel, fills it with Theresa's bones from the quarry (missing some) dumped the bones in Avery's pit, returns the barrel, and dumps the car (possibly at Avery's).

Two, the cops find the remains at the quarry (and possibly the car there, or at another site) get a barrel from Avery's, transport the bones to the pit themselves.

Yep, these are the most logical series' of events.

Oddly enough, the second option doesn't clear Steven Avery at all.

Spoiler

If we can believe that the police found an original murder site and moved it, planting further evidence along the way, there is nothing saying that Avery couldn't have been responsible for the original murder and burning at the quarry. You could argue that with Jodi in prison, he had made an advance towards Theresa. Being shut down he could have knocker her out in a struggle, and taken her away from the property with the intention of raping her.

However, even though theory #2 leaves the possibility of Avery being the killer, it would be working backwards from a point of assumed guilt, arguing in court to prove his innocence. As we all know, he should be presumed innocent, with the prosecution proving his guilt. This is where the whole thing is really fucked up. There just isn't any convincing "clean" evidence pointing towards Avery being the killer. The involvement of the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department taints every piece of evidence presented. It's pretty clear that they were setting up for the proverbial "kill" in court.

Too much reasonable doubt to call guilty. Feel sorry for Brendon especially.

Side note, whatever jail they in, they must be providing so much food since they gain a lot of weight. /jk

Yeah, as awful as the situation is for Steven, what happened to Brendan is just crazy.

Spoiler

How they keep refusing to give him a re-trial is the definition of insanity.

 

[Zach]

Still shook about my dude Brendan. Poor kid deserves better.

 

[Tugatrix]

Avery is innocent under the reasonable doubt,

Spoiler

I don't clear him entirely, but I cannot be sure when the evidence where so much tampered.

Brendan need to be release

Spoiler

, what police, lawyers and prosecutors did to him is criminal and they all should be punished for it

 

[Einchy]

Just got done with episode 3.

Spoiler

His nephew is dumber than a bag of hammers. As soon as they said what went down at the start of the episode I knew it sounded like bullshit. She was strapped naked to a bed, raped, throat cut, shot in the head and stomach and then burned? That shit sounds like it's from a movie. It especially sounded insane since the cops had full access to his house for multiple days and they never found any traces of blood inside of his house.

Am I to expect these 2 dimwits were able to completely clean the house and remove all possible traces then the only evidence left was a key that wasn't there until the guys who set him up 20 years ago found it?

Maybe for damming evidence will pop up in later episodes but so far it seems pretty clear that he didn't do shit.

[edit]

I like the part where the kid asks if he will be out soon since he has a report done in a few hours, then later they arrest him and they say something along the lines of, "you knew we'd have to arrest you, right?". Kid has no idea what the fuck is happening, even after that he asks if it will be for a day or two.

[edit2]

Start of episode 4 he is worried he won't get to see Wrestlemania. It's frustrating how dumb this kid is.
"What does "inconsistent" mean?"

 

[cLOUDo]

I know is kinda insensitive but everything Teresa's brother speak I want to punch him, I know he lost his sister but the man is blind, very close mind

 

[scarface983]

I know is kinda insensitive but everything Teresa's brother speak I want to punch him, I know he lost his sister but the man is blind, very close mind

You are not the only one I wanted to punch him every time he spoke. I mean how could he not see that evidence was popping up randomly after the house was searched..

 

[Einchy]

You are not the only one I wanted to punch him every time he spoke. I mean how could he not see that evidence was popping up randomly after the house was searched..

"all the evidence we need is on that tape"

"Have you seen it?"

"No, I have not"

come on bruh

 

[Arkeband]

That's what Serial is doing, I believe.

Edit: Serial S2 started already?!

Serial won't make a return to true crime until at least season 3, but SK was saying she's creeped out by the voracity of the public taking it upon themselves to not only try to solve the crime after the fact but harass random people in doing so.

Unrelated, that Reddit link and blog post people were discussing earlier sounds like some rabbit hole nonsense. No names, a woman conveniently married to a complete lunatic, sounds fake as fuck.

 

[KarmaCow]

"all the evidence we need is on that tape"

"Have you seen it?"

"No, I have not"

come on bruh

Come on, would you want to listen (ep4 spoiler)

Spoiler

to the person recount how he raped your sister who was tied to a bed, then stabbed and killed her?

It's really shitty to judge him for that.

 

[thebigmachine]

Just finished watching this Yesterday with one other family member. Man that was an aggravating set of episodes.

All show spoilers:

Spoiler

What a total shit show from the law enforcement, judges, jury, and the governments from both counties that were involved. They truly botched their duty to look for the true perpetrator in both cases zoning in on Stephen Avery. I can see them allowing whoever killed Teresa to get away by not doing a proper job.

I can't believe Brandon got convicted. That boy should have made it home and have been able to watch Wrestlemania, it was heartbreaking. The more I think about Stephen the more unsure I become, I can't say for sure that he's 100% innocent. He could have done it but almost nothing adds up either way.

I can see most of the Averys' really being a bunch of secluded dirtbags (including Stephen) and not just some regular folks that the whole town hates for no reason. There's a history there and I wish we could have learned more about that.

For some reason I distrusted Bobby Dassey when he was up on the stand. He gave testimony that Teresa was going into Stephen's trailer. He was sure that he left around 2:40-45 and Teresa was nowhere to be seen and her car was still there. Also dropped a false bombshell that Stephen joked about getting rid of Teresa's body on Nov. 3rd. It was a joking response from him to someone else on Nov. 10th. Then we got testimony from Lisa Buchner the school bus driver that around 3:30-40 that Teresa was there taking photos. The whole thing seemed off from him and that one guy he drove past.

This is going to be on my mind for a while. I hope there's some development on this whole thing in the upcoming years.

 

[Bowler]

This fucking show has my mind fucked. I can't even

 

[Einchy]

Come on, would you want to listen (ep4 spoiler)

Spoiler

to the person recount how he raped your sister who was tied to a bed, then stabbed and killed her?

It's really shitty to judge him for that.

I'm not sure how I would react if something like that happened to my sister, I'd probably act the same, who knows.

Removing the human element and just looking at it logically, saying that a tape completely proves what happened while you've not even seen the tape is ridiculous. It's even more ridiculous if you actually watch the tape and see that the kid was just saying whatever the detectives were telling him to say.

[edit]

Episode 5 ending.

Spoiler

This Colborn guy is full of shit. Everything so far points to the cops setting up Steven, I'm going to be amazed if they're able to find some actual proof against him.

I'm sure he's going to be found guilty even if they can't find any solid proof, though.

 

[NeonBlack]

I can't say if the guy is innocent but there's a lot of stupid things happening.

Spoiler

The victim's last voice messages were deleted and the roommate somehow guessed the password to check her online records? Bullshit

Brandon's own lawyers were trying to put him in jail because they don't like the family. There's some information that I feel is being left out about them to have an entire town hate them.

How can Brandon's story be used in court when there is no DNA evidence to confirm it?Plus, the tape shows him being handheld into making a narrative.

 

[Erigu]

Come on, would you want to listen (ep4 spoiler)

Spoiler

to the person recount how he raped your sister who was tied to a bed, then stabbed and killed her?

Before saying that person is absolutely guilty and said recount is all the evidence you need? Maybe.

 

[KarmaCow]

Before saying that person is absolutely guilty and said recount is all the evidence you need? Maybe.

He's not the judge or a juror. He's a guy who just lost his sister

Spoiler

and someone confessed to doing it

. I don't think it's fair to shame him for not carefully perusing evidence he thinks is detailing the gruesome manner his sister was killed.

To be clear,

Spoiler

I think the confession is absolutely worthless with how he was pressured and his forced involvement by the people involved in the case is a gross injustice

. However, I'm watching this as someone who is not personally involved and more than a decade after the fact through a documentary.

 

[Erigu]

I don't think it's fair to shame him for not carefully perusing evidence he thinks is detailing the gruesome manner his sister was killed.

I'd agree if he weren't saying these things for the cameras.

 

[FZZ]

I know is kinda insensitive but everything Teresa's brother speak I want to punch him, I know he lost his sister but the man is blind, very close mind

Personally I think the brother was involved. Him and her ex-boyfriend seemed shady as fuck.

He's not the judge or a juror. He's a guy who just lost his sister

Spoiler

and someone confessed to doing it

. I don't think it's fair to shame him for not carefully perusing evidence he thinks is detailing the gruesome manner his sister was killed.

To be clear,

Spoiler

I think the confession is absolutely worthless with how he was pressured and his forced involvement by the people involved in the case is a gross injustice

. However, I'm watching this as someone who is not personally involved and more than a decade after the fact through a documentary.

Just asking have you finished the series yet?

 

[KarmaCow]

Personally I think the brother was involved. Him and her ex-boyfriend seemed shady as fuck.



Just asking have you finished the series yet?

I've been in the middle of episode 9 for a while now partly because

Spoiler

I already know that Brendon is in jail and it's hard to watch the rest

.

 

[Fantastical]

Personally I think the brother was involved. Him and her ex-boyfriend seemed shady as fuck.

But the documentary clearly wants to you to think they are somehow involved. They edited it like that. There's not a lot there though, IMO.

 

[FZZ]

I've been in the middle of episode 9 for a while now partly because

Spoiler

I already know that Brendon is in jail and it's hard to watch the rest

.

Ahh yeah episode 9 is imo the hardest to get through, but you should definitely watch it. It's like the final shit topping on this shit covered case against these two men.

And the reason I asked the question was because throughout the series the brother has seemed way to happy to be on camera, compared to the rest of his family he just seems off during the trial,

Spoiler

and his comments about what he says about Brendan in episode 9 genuinely disgust me.

There's no way I see this dude and think "he's grieving over his sister," and I say this as someone who only has 3 older sisters. The way he reacts to everything is just off.

But the documentary clearly wants to you to think they are somehow involved. They edited it like that. There's not a lot there though, IMO.

Fair point, and I have already thought that the documentary would do that. But just the response in his tone of what was seen is very off. I can't describe it.

Call it a personal bias, but idk.

 

[criesofthepast]

I've had some time to let the doc soak in a bit for a few days. There is that one phone call transcript between Brendan and his mom that kinda makes me think Steven is guilty. It is highly edited in the doc and the full transcript is online and leaves out some major details. I can't say 100% sure but at the very least he isn't the most stand up and innocent guy.

Brendan talking about how Steven used to touch him and make him uncomfortable and his brothers or cousins as well. Helping clean up stains in the garage. I don't know. Just that there is something fucky about Steven for sure. He isn't the angel the doc kind of portrays him as. Definitely need to keep an open mind about it and see what was left out of the doc.

 

[ZanzibarBreeze]

Agree that Steven Avery isn't a great human being (the cat/gasoline story alone is horrific), but there definitely wasn't enough evidence to convict him here. I mean, there wasn't really any evidence full stop,

Spoiler

and it's clear that Lenk and Colburn etc. were up to some shady stuff. The whole bit about Colburn calling in the plate before the car had officially been found is hilarious.

Re: the brother, I don't feel he had anything to do with it directly... he just seems like an ass. We all know plenty of guys like that. I figure he's a jerk that approaches everything in life with the same cold, dispassionate disposition.

Spoiler

If Avery didn't do it, then the ex-boyfriend/roommate etc. would be suspect, but the documentary just didn't give enough background on them (or, really, any background on them), so I find it kinda hard to say.

Great show overall. Those two lawyers were great.

 

[ZQQLANDER]

I've had some time to let the doc soak in a bit for a few days. There is that one phone call transcript between Brendan and his mom that kinda makes me think Steven is guilty. It is highly edited in the doc and the full transcript is online and leaves out some major details. I can't say 100% sure but at the very least he isn't the most stand up and innocent guy.

Brendan talking about how Steven used to touch him and make him uncomfortable and his brothers or cousins as well. Helping clean up stains in the garage. I don't know. Just that there is something fucky about Steven for sure. He isn't the angel the doc kind of portrays him as. Definitely need to keep an open mind about it and see what was left out of the doc.

Could you post a link to the original transcript when you have a chance. No luck on google for me yet.