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[ant_]

Are people against implicating the police department not only in the framing of Avery, but Theresa's death?

 

[Staccat0]

Watched 6 episodes last night and kind of hit a wall in the last one. Once it became 90% courtroom footage it became a bit dull and I was nodding off.

Still excited to see how it plays out though

You crazy

 

[RustyNails]

Ken Kratz' getting scathing reviews on Yelp

As usual, like in the case of Cecil the lion killer, Yelp is actively scrubbing negative reviews.

 

[zewone]

I too got so engrossed I watched all 10 episodes back to back.

Easily the most frustrating piece of television I have ever watched. It's aggravating that real killers will never be caught due to shithead cops.

Was there ever a separate investigation as in to who tampered with Avery's blood? It obviously had to be a police officer, so I would assume, no.

 

[soco]

Ken Kratz' getting scathing reviews on Yelp

As usual, like in the case of Cecil the lion killer, Yelp is actively scrubbing negative reviews.

Your trust is our top concern!

 

[Arkeband]

Reddit had a transcript of an email correspondence with Ken Krantz, I thought I'd post it here just to stir the pot a bit, since KK claims the documentary left out basically every piece of evidence that pointed to Steven doing the crime.

Avery's past incident with a cat was not "goofing around". He soaked his cat in gasoline or oil, and put it on a fire to watch it suffer.

Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time." On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake #, giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick her into coming.

Teresa's phone, camera and PDA were found 20 ft from Avery's door, burned in his barrel. Why did the documentary not tell the viewers the contents of her purse were in his burn barrel?

While in prison, Avery told his cell mate of his intent to build a "torture chamber" so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released. He even drew a diagram. His other cell mate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to "burn it"...heat destroys DNA.

Her bones in the firepit were "intertwined" with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn, as described by Dassey. That WAS where her bones were burned!

Also found in the fire pit was Teresa's tooth (ID'd through dental records), a rivet from the "Daisy Fuentes" jeans she was wearing that day, and the tools used by Avery to chop up her bones during the fire.

Phone records show 3 calls from Avery to Teresa's cell phone on Oct 31. One at 2:24, and one at 2:35--both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn't know it him...both placed before she arrives. Then one last call at 4:35 pm, without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up, so tries to establish the alibi call after she's already tied up in his trailer, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn't need the *67 feature.

Some of this is obviously hearsay, but just thought I'd throw it in here too.

 

[pj]

Reddit had a transcript of an email correspondence with Ken Krantz, I thought I'd post it here just to stir the pot a bit, since KK claims the documentary left out basically every piece of evidence that pointed to Steven doing the time.









Some of this is obviously hearsay, but just thought I'd throw it in here too.

Some of those are interesting but others seem pretty stupid. He gave a fake name and number to trick her into coming, ok. And what about the address? His address is probably The Red Trailer on Avery road. Who did she think she was going to meet?

Also what does it matter if her personal effects were found in the burn barrel? Whoever burned her body also presumably would burn the stuff she had with her. If the bones were planted, what would prevent the same people from planting her burned phone and purse?

Judging by what I've seen in tv and movies, I'd never put a lot of stock into what a cell mate has to say. If it was me, I'd tell you anything you want to hear if it meant earlier parole.

 

[Boke1879]

Just started watching this and halfway into episode one but this department already seems shady as hell. The sheriff at time pretty much forging a composite drawing to implicate Steven in the sexual assault is downright disgusting.

 

[KarmaCow]

Some of those are interesting but others seem pretty stupid. He gave a fake name and number to trick her into coming, ok. And what about the address? His address is probably The Red Trailer on Avery road. Who did she think she was going to meet?

Also what does it matter if her personal effects were found in the burn barrel? Whoever burned her body also presumably would burn the stuff she had with her. If the bones were planted, what would prevent the same people from planting her burned phone and purse?

Judging by what I've seen in tv and movies, I'd never put a lot of stock into what a cell mate has to say. If it was me, I'd tell you anything you want to hear if it meant earlier parole.

I mostly agree some of those bits doesn't change much for me but it does paint him very differently which makes the lack of motive less ridiculous, even if it is still just hearsay. Avery always came off as a scumbag but even though details like dousing the cat in gasoline has it's own sinister shade applied to it, it also very much changes how the documentary frames him just throwing the cat over a fire.

There's also the stuff about the calls which also applies a motive. Did they know he made those calls anonymously or are they inferring that? Because that is a red flag.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Just started watching this. Its pretty good.

 

[The Beard]

I had the feeling that the documentary was trying to paint Avery in the most positive light possible by leaving out certain aspects of the actual story. From everything that was presented, there is no way in hell I would've voted guilty if I were on the jury. There has to be something missing, right?

I really don't understand why Teresa's blood was in the back of her SUV, it makes no damn sense. They want you to believe that he killed her in his garage (where there wasn't a single particle of blood), transported her very bloody body through the garage past the fire pit. Then he threw her into the back of her SUV, then what? Immediately pulled her back out and put her in the fire pit? Then, in the 3 days he had to clean up and get rid of evidence, he leaves her bloody car (covered in her blood and his) on his own damn property? There's no fucking way in hell.

He managed to completely scrub his entire house and garage of every single DNA trace, but he keeps the bloody SUV on his property with the key in his bedroom? GTFO! Even the dumbest of dumbfucks would know to get rid of the damn SUV.

His nephew fucked him so hard with that bullshit confession. Cops should not be allowed to interrogate a minor by himself with an IQ of 70. They could've gotten that kid to admit to assassinating JFK if they tried. The case was such bullshit, and they both deserve another trial. Now that Avery is trying to represent himself though, he really doesn't have a fucking chance in hell.

 

[NimbusD]

Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time." On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake #, giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick her into coming.

So much stuff to look through, but this doesnt make sense (and others I see have somewhat debunked it). But Avery requested 'the same girl who was here last time', but also gave a fake name? So how would they know which girl came last time if they didn't know who he was.

 

[Aiii]

So much stuff to look through, but this doesnt make sense (and others I see have somewhat debunked it). But Avery requested 'the same girl who was here last time', but also gave a fake name? So how would they know which girl came last time if they didn't know who he was.

Not to mention she would have remembered the address or at least the place when she got there. Since it left such a huge impression last time. She would have just turned around and left.

 

[diablos991]

I had the feeling that the documentary was trying to paint Avery in the most positive light possible by leaving out certain aspects of the actual story. From everything that was presented, there is no way in hell I would've voted guilty if I were on the jury. There has to be something missing, right?

I really don't understand why Teresa's blood was in the back of her SUV, it makes no damn sense. They want you to believe that he killed her in his garage (where there wasn't a single particle of blood), transported her very bloody body through the garage past the fire pit. Then he threw her into the back of her SUV, then what? Immediately pulled her back out and put her in the fire pit? Then, in the 3 days he had to clean up and get rid of evidence, he leaves her bloody car (covered in her blood and his) on his own damn property? There's no fucking way in hell.

He managed to completely scrub his entire house and garage of every single DNA trace, but he keeps the bloody SUV on his property with the key in his bedroom? GTFO! Even the dumbest of dumbfucks would know to get rid of the damn SUV.

His nephew fucked him so hard with that bullshit confession. Cops should not be allowed to interrogate a minor by himself with an IQ of 70. They could've gotten that kid to admit to assassinating JFK if they tried. The case was such bullshit, and they both deserve another trial. Now that Avery is trying to represent himself though, he really doesn't have a fucking chance in hell.

He was also able to operate the car crusher on the property. Could have cubed the SUV and made it much harder to discover. Things definitely point to the SUV being a plant.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

His nephew fucked him so hard with that bullshit confession.

The prosecution didn't use it in the case against Steve Avery, though. It's possible the jurors heard about it in the news, but they would have been instructed not to use it as evidence against Steve (although they may have done so anyway).

Brendan was the one who really got screwed by his confession. It likely had minimal effect on Steve's case.

 

[pj]

I mostly agree some of those bits doesn't change much for me but it does paint him very differently which makes the lack of motive less ridiculous, even if it is still just hearsay. Avery always came off as a scumbag but even though details like dousing the cat in gasoline has it's own sinister shade applied to it, it also very much changes how the documentary frames him just throwing the cat over a fire.

There's also the stuff about the calls which also applies a motive. Did they know he made those calls anonymously or are they inferring that? Because that is a red flag.

The cat thing is abhorrent to me, but I grew up in a pretty red neck area and I know some folks who could have easily done that, especially in a group setting with alcohol involved. I wouldn't call them violent people, just ignorant. There are a whole lot of people on this planet who place little to no value on animal life and also would never kill a person.

The cat thing would be a whole lot more sinister to me if he had gotten caught doing it alone, rather than in a large group of people.

 

[SirMossyBloke]

Reddit had a transcript of an email correspondence with Ken Krantz, I thought I'd post it here just to stir the pot a bit, since KK claims the documentary left out basically every piece of evidence that pointed to Steven doing the crime.




Some of this is obviously hearsay, but just thought I'd throw it in here too.

The documentary DID mention the contents of the purse in the burn barrel. Second to last episode during Brendan's court case he was asked why he mentioned it.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Another thing that gets me about this case is that, to believe Steve did this act and covered it up, you've got to believe he's such an expert that he left no trace of blood in his house or garage, yet left the RAV4 in plain view on his junkyard lot. How is that possible? Doesn't make sense.

 

[RustyNails]

I too got so engrossed I watched all 10 episodes back to back.

Easily the most frustrating piece of television I have ever watched. It's aggravating that real killers will never be caught due to shithead cops.

Was there ever a separate investigation as in to who tampered with Avery's blood? It obviously had to be a police officer, so I would assume, no.

I was so emotionally exhausted by Episode 9 that I couldn't bear to see the Avery families being depressed and morose, especially the mother. I skipped the last episode, however read about it online. It was very heart-breaking.

As for tampering with the evidence, It's Lenk. It's clear as a day. He knew where and how to get access to it. He also planted the evidence on the property. They show us a picture of the police log on who entered and exited the property. He squeezes his name in the entry between other entries.

 

[soco]

finally finished this. I'm not 100% convinced Avery didn't do this, but there was enough doubt to not convict him.

While there are multiple tragedies from these cases, and there are undoubtedly others like it, I'm most worried about some of the accepted policies and procedures used by law enforcement. I know that there's been a fair bit of light shed on some of these practices in the last 30 years ago with some of the research on false memories, but I feel like we really need to start surfacing many of these practices and open those up to more challenges.

I don't mean this to question the many hard-working, well-meaning law enforcement officials, but more as a recognition of the challenges and lack of resources that they have at their disposal. I imagine it's nearly impossible to stay well-educated and up-to-date on best practices.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I was so emotionally exhausted by Episode 9 that I couldn't bear to see the Avery families being depressed and morose, especially the mother. I skipped the last episode, however read about it online. It was very heart-breaking.

You should watch the last ep, it's pretty crazy too.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

The cat thing is abhorrent to me, but I grew up in a pretty red neck area and I know some folks who could have easily done that, especially in a group setting with alcohol involved. I wouldn't call them violent people, just ignorant. There are a whole lot of people on this planet who place little to no value on animal life and also would never kill a person.

The cat thing would be a whole lot more sinister to me if he had gotten caught doing it alone, rather than in a large group of people.

I know a lot of people that grew up on farms and I've heard a lot of stories of animal abuse from said people...Lets just say I didnt find the cat thing that shocking or surprising, unfortunately.

I'm not 100% convinced Avery didn't do this, but there was enough doubt to not convict him.

about sums it up

 

[Quonny]

Mom watched this after I basically made her. She thinks documentaries are boring.

She called me this morning crying. Apparently she stayed up until 2AM (she usually goes to sleep at 9PM) and couldn't sleep.

Whoops.

 

[The Beard]

The prosecution didn't use it in the case against Steve Avery, though. It's possible the jurors heard about it in the news, but they would have been instructed not to use it as evidence against Steve (although they may have done so anyway).

Brendan was the one who really got screwed by his confession. It likely had minimal effect on Steve's case.

His confession led to that press conference where they described everything in detail. It without a doubt cast a shadow over Avery in the eyes of everyone in that county. It shouldn't have had an impact, but it certainly did.

Accusations get large front page articles. Acquittals get a tiny blip on the back page underneath the JC Penney ad.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

I'm up to episode 6.

Where is the blood and why did the cop call in the number plate a few days before the vehicle was found etc? I don't understand why the defense lawyers don't seem to be gritting their teeth and really going for it.

 

[The Beard]

I'm up to episode 6.

Where is the blood and why did the cop call in the number plate a few days before the vehicle was found etc? I don't understand why the defense lawyers don't seem to be gritting their teeth and really going for it.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about that. That's another thing that makes no sense. Under what circumstances would that have been necessary, unless he had found the car?

Why were her burnt bones in 3 different locations on the property? Not a spec of DNA on the entire property except in her own SUV, there wasn't even any of her DNA on her own damn car key, only Avery's (wut?).

 

[Einchy]

Mom watched this after I basically made her. She thinks documentaries are boring.

She called me this morning crying. Apparently she stayed up until 2AM (she usually goes to sleep at 9PM) and couldn't sleep.

Whoops.

Was she crying about Brendan?

 

[pj]

I'm up to episode 6.

Where is the blood and why did the cop call in the number plate a few days before the vehicle was found etc? I don't understand why the defense lawyers don't seem to be gritting their teeth and really going for it.

The cop thing was so suspicious. It's possible he was told the plate number by her family and called to confirm the owner was the missing person, but if so, why didn't he say that on the stand?

 

[Deaf Spacker]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about that. That's another thing that makes no sense. Under what circumstances would that have been necessary, unless he had found the car?

Why were her burnt bones in 3 different locations on the property? Not a spec of DNA on the entire property except in her own SUV, there wasn't even any of her DNA on her own damn car key, only Avery's (wut?).

With the bones I believe that the defense theory was that the body was burnt in the barrel near the fire pit and that the bones were then scattered by persons unknown I.E not Avery.

Her blood was found in the back of the vehicle and they seem to think that the vehicle was used to transport the body, this didn't support the prosecution's theory that she was killed in the trailer because the barrels and fire pit are right next to the trailer so why transport her body...

There's more holes in the prosecutions theory than there is in Swiss cheese.

 

[soco]

I'm up to episode 6.

Where is the blood and why did the cop call in the number plate a few days before the vehicle was found etc? I don't understand why the defense lawyers don't seem to be gritting their teeth and really going for it.

That was one of the most confusing things in the documentary. I imagine there's stuff they didn't include because that seemed to just disappear after that point. I don't understand why this wasn't followed up in the documentary.

On one hand I like the pureness of this documentary, in that they show long sections of video with seemingly little editing, but I think I want less documentary and more analysis. I think Serial style of investigation and discussion would be better warranted for something that's 10 hours long and to better present the information. I wanted visual timelines showing where each section of video came from and such.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

There's an opinion write up on the MAM Reddit page here.

This sums up my thoughts about the car plate:

The car - Colburn called in to dispatch asking them to run plate numbers that turn out to be Teresa Halbech's, and after she tells him its a missing person's car, he tells the dispatcher "99 Toyota?", which she confirms. He had no real explanation on the stand. He looked like a deer in the headlights under questioning. Really strong proof Colburn was involved in moving the car to Avery's property.

And the blood:

Her blood in the car being next to his - Didn't fit with the prosecution's own theory. According to the prosecution he had brought her to his trailer and eventually killed her in the garage then burned her at the pit. At no point would he transport her in the car. Again pointed out by the defense attorneys. Then you have Steven having access to a crusher and an incinerator, which most defendants wouldn't. Two tools that could not be more perfect for getting rid of the evidence, yet weren't used at all.

 

[Fuu]

The fuckery going on in Steven's case was always interesting to watch, but anything involving Brendan was super uncomfortable. I had to take a time out before finishing episode 9.

 

[Quonny]

Was she crying about Brendan?

Yeah. She and I both work with special needs individuals and it hit her really hard.

 

[Zekes!]

My girlfriend and started watching this last night.

On one hand, you gotta assume some sort of bias from the documentary makers in what they showcase and I couldn't say with certainty that Avery is 100% innocent, but damn, all the recordings and shit they show indicate something is clearly not right. Also these cops and prosecutors sound and even look like fucking scumbags in how they handle the case.

Shit, the whole thing with Brendan is just savage. It's completely disgusting and heartbreaking.

 

[Nothus]

I was so emotionally exhausted by Episode 9 that I couldn't bear to see the Avery families being depressed and morose, especially the mother.

I know what you mean. My heart broke every time his poor mother was on the screen, I feel so sorry for her.
That short scene with her looking through a magazine picking out a house for Steven to live in really upset me as well. I don't know if it was her blind faith that he'd one day be free that kept her going or what, but deep down she must have known that he was never setting foot outside of those prison walls to see the house she was buying for him

 

[Boke1879]

Halfway through episode 3. Just got to the part where Brendan confesses and they are having the press conference. So I still have a long way to go.

That said earlier in the episode. They said the mantiwoc PD was supposed to have no involvement in the investigation. Yet wasn't it one of their officers who found the key?

Edit-Just got done with the interrogation. Yea that was all sorts of fucked up. They pretty much coerced him into that.

 

[tirminyl]

Just finished. Wow. Just. Wow.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

I can't get over how shady Colburn and Lenk are.

Even if Steven is completely guilty of the murder, those two and the sheriff shouldn't have been anywhere near that crime scene or the case. They all had just been called less than 3 weeks before the murder to supply a deposition for, the 36 million dollar lawsuit. Colburn called in the license plate 2 days before the car was officially found. Lenk and Colburn found the key in Steven's room (on the seventh sweep of the house) and Lenk was there the next March where they found the bullet fragment in Steven's garage

Come the fuck on

 

[Fuu]

.

 

[Boke1879]

I can't get over how shady Colburn and Lenk are.

Even if Steven is completely guilt of the murder, those two and the sheriff shouldn't have been anywhere near that crime scene or the case. They all had just been called less than 3 weeks before the murder to supply a deposition for, the 36 million dollar lawsuit. Colburn called in the license plate 2 days before the car was officially found. Lenk and Colburn found the key in Steven's room (on the seventh sweep of the house) and Lenk was there the next March where they found the bullet fragment in Steven's garage

Come the fuck on

I'm only around the start of episode for so I haven't gotten to all that stuff yet but yea. It all just seems so convenient.

Weren't all those people somewhat being investigated by not following up info about Steven's previous charge that he didn't commit. The City about to pay out 36 million and then this happens.

That's what I thought as well. They shouldn't have been let anywhere near that house.

 

[RustyNails]

That was one of the most confusing things in the documentary. I imagine there's stuff they didn't include because that seemed to just disappear after that point. I don't understand why this wasn't followed up in the documentary.

It's because the judge ruled that the scope of the case is only regarding Avery and cannot focus on other potential criminals. That's why all the possible leads by the defense went cold: Colburn running the plates two days before disappearance, the ex "hacking" into her phone records, the brother suspiciously deleting the voicemails, etc.

I'm up to episode 6.

Where is the blood and why did the cop call in the number plate a few days before the vehicle was found etc? I don't understand why the defense lawyers don't seem to be gritting their teeth and really going for it.

Same reasoning. Judge wanted the defense to only work with Avery.

 

[soco]

It's because the judge ruled that the scope of the case is only regarding Avery and cannot focus on other potential criminals. That's why all the possible leads by the defense went cold: Colburn running the plates two days before disappearance, the ex "hacking" into her phone records, the brother suspiciously deleting the voicemails, etc.

Same reasoning. Judge wanted the defense to only work with Avery.

I thought that ruling happened at the beginning or the trial and it was just preventing them from naming someone else as the murderer. It seems like it would fit in quite well with the planting evidence route they were taking, and something worthy of bringing up at least in the closing arguments.

 

[Timeaisis]

Just saw episode 4 and hooooly fuck.

 

[sol_bad]

Are there any more documentaries like this on Netflix or Hulu?

 

[SMattera]

Are there any more documentaries like this on Netflix or Hulu?

The Jinx on HBO Now

 

[Einchy]

The Jinx on HBO Now

Yeah, The Jinx is fantastic.

If you haven't heard about it sol_bad, don't google it.

 

[sol_bad]

I have heard of it but unfortunately I have no access to HBO Now/Go in Australia so I won't be able to watch it.

 

[TrAcEr_x90]

Why is the brother Mike hlabach always in the spotlight talking? Something is off with that dude when Hes talking about the case to reporters.

 

[Boke1879]

Why is the brother Mike hlabach always in the spotlight talking? Something is off with that dude when Hes talking about the case to reporters.

I'm only done with episode 4 but I don't get a good vibe from him either.

 

[JumpJeff84]

Are there any more documentaries like this on Netflix or Hulu?

The Staircase is another good one. You can watch it for free on YouTube