Support NeoGAF

[soco]

I've heard good things about Staircase, but I haven't seen that one yet.

I watched the Staircase and while it was interesting, it wasn't as good as this or the Jinx. Supposedly the Staircase 2 is better, but the original is pretty straightforward and is really just about the trial prep and the trial progression. I found it slow and boring.

 

[sangreal]

Agree that Steven Avery isn't a great human being (the cat/gasoline story alone is horrific), but there definitely wasn't enough evidence to convict him here. I mean, there wasn't really any evidence full stop,

Spoiler

and it's clear that Lenk and Colburn etc. were up to some shady stuff. The whole bit about Colburn calling in the plate before the car had officially been found is hilarious.

Re: the brother, I don't feel he had anything to do with it directly... he just seems like an ass. We all know plenty of guys like that. I figure he's a jerk that approaches everything in life with the same cold, dispassionate disposition.

Spoiler

If Avery didn't do it, then the ex-boyfriend/roommate etc. would be suspect, but the documentary just didn't give enough background on them (or, really, any background on them), so I find it kinda hard to say.

Great show overall. Those two lawyers were great.

Spoiler

The documentary didn't go into any more info on them because the police didn't bother to investigate them

 

[ZQQLANDER]

This entire documentary just shows how important it is to have a good (i.e. EXPENSIVE) lawyer at your side when shit hits the fan. If you're poor, working class, or middle class, you're royally fucked and the system will have its way with you.

Yup. If Steven would have had a public defender it would have been game, set, and match once the jury was picked.

The defense team was phenomenal and they seemed not only invested in the case professionally, but personally as well. I was actually kind of shocked when they stopped representing him after the guilty verdict. To me it seemed like once the money was gone they just peaced out and left. Maybe they were still involved though behind the scenes.

 

[sangreal]

It's just amazing to me that we have a system where in one trial you can say one thing happened and then turn around and try someone else by arguing a completely different set of events

 

[PRBoricua]

Just watched the Jinx in one sitting after this doc. I'm hooked on true crime docs now. Anymore I should check out?

If you want to see just how fucking corrupt cops can get, check out a Showtime! Documentary called "The Seven Five", it's about New York Police officer Michael Dowd & his crew. Un-fucking-believable what those guys got up to. Great documentary too.

 

[beta_fuse]

Just finished up. I really never watched a show before that left me with rage like this.

Truly there can't be anyone who watches this and thinks this isn't a conspiracy/cover up.

Un-freaking-believable

 

[The Beard]

Just finished up. I really never watched a show before that left me with rage like this.

Truly there can't be anyone who watches this and thinks this isn't a conspiracy/cover up.

Un-freaking-believable

That was the intention of the filmmaker. They intentionally left things out that would've made Steven's innocence more questionable.

 

[RustyNails]

Really? Can you be more specific? I don't recall anything

I think it's the first press conference by Kratz after Brendan's confession where he warns the press about the gory details to follow. The defense even mentions it as something related to taking a shower.

 

[beta_fuse]

That was the intention of the filmmaker. They intentionally left things out that would've made Steven's innocence more questionable.

I get that but the evidence is pretty clear regardless. So many procedures weren't conducted properly and too many stories were changed/altered. Something was up despite if more info was presented by the prosecution.

 

[jmood88]

For the people who aren't sure that Steven is innocent, why do you think he would do it? He just finished serving 18 years in jail, had $400,000 waiting for him, plus the possibility of millions, and had a new relationship. It just makes no sense to me that he would want to throw his life away after he was just vindicated and has so much of his time wasted in prison.

 

[Tugatrix]

For the people who aren't sure that Steven is innocent, why do you think he would do it? He just finished serving 18 years in jail, had $400,000 waiting for him, plus the possibility of millions, and had a new relationship. It just makes no sense to me that he would want to throw his life away after he was just vindicated and has so much of his time wasted in prison.

All rational thinkings, nothing about murder is purely rational, it's emotional. Steven lived for 18 years in a prision, that environment of normative violence tends to screw people up.

Let's see some points that made me doubt Steven:

-Last place where the victim was seen was in his junk yard.
-The bleach stains found on his clothes(not shown of the documentary).
-The victim remains where burned near Steven junk yard.
-His background in minor offenses, As a psychologist I can see that as a trace of Anti-Social Disorder(the ones we usually call psychopaths) he also show some superficial charm.

Even with my doubts I would clear him under reasonable doubt

 

[Socreges]

That was the intention of the filmmaker. They intentionally left things out that would've made Steven's innocence more questionable.

Well, you don't know that for sure. What we know is what single sources (maybe in some cases multiple) tell us was left out, without having an explanation given from the other side. Perhaps some of the things are completely untrue, or were simply unimportant. The alleged inappropriate touching, for example, was part of the same coerced "confession", so that just seems superfluous.

I think it's the first press conference by Kratz after Brendan's confession where he warns the press about the gory details to follow. The defense even mentions it as something related to taking a shower.

But it's still his DNA on the hood of her car, no?

 

[RustyNails]

But it's still his DNA on the hood of her car, no?

Probably. I think Avery does have some things questionable on his part. For his sweat on the hood, maybe he leaned against it without much thought, and therefore couldn't remember not touching it. I'm not sure. But then that leads to where and the state of the evidence found. Did the prosecution find his prints anywhere? The blood found near the door and on the ignition did not have finger or thumb prints and looks like it was pasted there somehow.

Now this leads us to dilemma: Either Avery was a super meticulous mastermind with almost ADD attention to detail (if we consider State's case he wiped the entire trailer and garage spit clean), or he was a dumb careless yokel that sloppily killed Teresa, drove her to the location, half-assedly burned her body and forgot to junk the car with his compactor and instead threw some branches on it.

 

[Rizific]

If this is season 1, when will season 2 come out?

 

[120v]

For the people who aren't sure that Steven is innocent, why do you think he would do it? He just finished serving 18 years in jail, had $400,000 waiting for him, plus the possibility of millions, and had a new relationship. It just makes no sense to me that he would want to throw his life away after he was just vindicated and has so much of his time wasted in prison.

i think being incarcerated for 18 years "because reasons" just really fucked him in the head. he never seemed mentally stable (at least intellectually) in the first place so if he is guilty (and i'm still not sure he is, but leaning in that direction) it sort of makes sense from that standpoint

so basically, the same thing his lawyer from '85 said

 

[The Beard]

For the people who aren't sure that Steven is innocent, why do you think he would do it? He just finished serving 18 years in jail, had $400,000 waiting for him, plus the possibility of millions, and had a new relationship. It just makes no sense to me that he would want to throw his life away after he was just vindicated and has so much of his time wasted in prison.

I'd imagine that spending 18 years in prison for a crime you didn't commit would fill you with a lot of anger and resentment. Apparently Steven had a thing for Teresa, and Teresa felt uncomfortable around him based on previous experiences with him. Steven might have tried to make a move which Teresa rejected, and Steven lost his shit. Maybe Steven planned it all out. He supposedly requested Teresa be the one to come to the property to take pics. The 2 phone calls he made to Teresa's phone using *67 (to block his #) before she arrived, then the 3rd phone call he made to her phone where he didn't block his number after she was already there for over an hour, could suggest Steven was going to claim that she never arrived.

 

[Darryl]

If he made that third call to allegedly say she never came, why didn't he end up saying that?

 

[Socreges]

I'd imagine that spending 18 years in prison for a crime you didn't commit would fill you with a lot of anger and resentment. Apparently Steven had a thing for Teresa, and Teresa felt uncomfortable around him based on previous experiences with him. Steven might have tried to make a move which Teresa rejected, and Steven lost his shit. Maybe Steven planned it all out. He supposedly requested Teresa be the one to come to the property to take pics. The 2 phone calls he made to Teresa's phone using *67 (to block his #) before she arrived, then the 3rd phone call he made to her phone where he didn't block his number after she was already there for over an hour, could suggest Steven was going to claim that she never arrived.

Source? Did you also get it from the dude that was sourcing Reddit and old news media? Because I'd really want something more solid before I began throwing around apparentlys and supposedlys to build a theory of motive.

Edit - I urge caution because that info could have come from anywhere. Consider Brendan's cousin who made up a story based on what she heard on the news and only recanted once she was under oath and the pressure was on. I'm sure rumours were rampant in Manitowoc given the sensationalism.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

Steven told police and news crews before the car was found that he saw her that night and she had taken pictures on his property.

If it was some grand conspiracy on his part to cover up the fact she had been there, he fucked it up by being honest.

 

[commish]

I'm at a loss as to how these 2 folks could be convicted. How was there no reasonable doubt from the jurors? It blows my mind and is truly terrifying.

Steven's attorneys were amazing, though.

 

[UFO]

I'd imagine that spending 18 years in prison for a crime you didn't commit would fill you with a lot of anger and resentment. Apparently Steven had a thing for Teresa, and Teresa felt uncomfortable around him based on previous experiences with him. Steven might have tried to make a move which Teresa rejected, and Steven lost his shit. Maybe Steven planned it all out. He supposedly requested Teresa be the one to come to the property to take pics. The 2 phone calls he made to Teresa's phone using *67 (to block his #) before she arrived, then the 3rd phone call he made to her phone where he didn't block his number after she was already there for over an hour, could suggest Steven was going to claim that she never arrived.

Sounds sketchy to me. What's the point of using *69 to hid your number if you're just going to ask them to come to the Avery house anyways? That would be a dead give away, and I'm sure they could recognize his voice as well.

 

[120v]

I'm at a loss as to how these 2 folks could be convicted. How was there no reasonable doubt from the jurors?

like the interviewed juror said most of their minds were made up from the get-go. it would've been miracle to get a pool of "untainted" jurors unless they tried somewhere even further away than Chiton

 

[ZQQLANDER]

he was a dumb careless yokel that sloppily killed Teresa, drove her to the location, half-assedly burned her body and forgot to junk the car with his compactor and instead threw some branches on it.

^^Sounds like Steven imo.

The article posted by Socreges on page 18 should be added to the OP. Interesting read with some tidbits that weren't necessarily in the documentary. Would be nice to determine the truthfulness of the information. At this point I'm not sure what is fact and what is some guesswork by a websleuth.

 

[The Silver]

Just finished ep 9, god fucking damnit at this Brendan stuff, justice system? good joke bruh.

 

[Filthy Slug]

I'm up to episode 4. I don't fucking think I'm going to make it through the whole series--the shit going down with Brendan is heartbreakingly brutal.

 

[Big Baybee]

Brendan

 

[dukeoflegs]

Spoiler

It's interesting that he was convicted on the first account but not the second.

personal I would believe those two are tied together.

 

[Big Baybee]

Spoiler

It's interesting that he was convicted on the first account but not the second.

personal I would believe those two are tied together.

I said the same thing.

 

[AniHawk]

Spoiler

It's interesting that he was convicted on the first account but not the second.

personal I would believe those two are tied together.

i believe he was found guilty of murder, but because of the evidence being tampered with, or fabricated, there was reasonable doubt that he was involved on the second charge.

i guess the case was strongly in the favor that avery actually killed her. dassey on the other hand? there had to be more than enough reasonable doubt there.

 

[wapplew]

I'm at a loss as to how these 2 folks could be convicted. How was there no reasonable doubt from the jurors? It blows my mind and is truly terrifying.

Steven's attorneys were amazing, though.

There was enough doubt, first vote is 7 not guilty against 2 guilty.

 

[Big Baybee]

There was enough doubt, first vote is 7 not guilty against 2 guilty.

How did that change? What's the process? Let's just hurry and get the fuck out of here?

 

[Ingueferroque]

I watched the Staircase and while it was interesting, it wasn't as good as this or the Jinx. Supposedly the Staircase 2 is better, but the original is pretty straightforward and is really just about the trial prep and the trial progression. I found it slow and boring.

I couldn't disagree more. Everyone who liked this show needs to watch The Staircase and The Staircase 2 NOW.

 

[Dalek]

I'm on the second episode and the "commentary" from the Sheriff's video as they search the Avery house is fucking terrifying. They see the letter inviting him to the exonerees meeting and she just laughs and says "I don't think he's going to make it."

Then they open the closet door: "we should take all these shoes just in case there are any unsolved mysteries we have with footprints"

 

[Zekes!]

I'm on the second episode and the "commentary" from the Sheriff's video as they search the Avery house is fucking terrifying. They see the letter inviting him to the exonerees meeting and she just laughs and says "I don't think he's going to make it."

Then they open the closet door: "we should take all these shoes just in case there are any unsolved mysteries we have with footprints"

Yeah that shit really set the tone

 

[CitizenCope]

Haven't read a post here yet. I heard tonight that this documentary is Dateline x100(meaning sooo good). Accurate?

 

[wachie]

Had did that change? What's the process? Let's just hurry and get the fuck out of here?

Not sure how legit this is but for what it's worth from reddit - One of the jurors had a son who worked in the sheriff's department, and another was married to someone in the county clerks office.

That's in response to the 3 stubborn jurors who had made their minds up before the trial was completed as per the juror who got excused.

 

[The Beard]

Haven't read a post here yet. I heard tonight that this documentary is Dateline x100(meaning sooo good). Accurate?

It's really only similar in subject matter. I'm a huge Dateline fan, and I really enjoyed the documentary fwiw.

 

[JakkuFurosu]

Haven't read a post here yet. I heard tonight that this documentary is Dateline x100(meaning sooo good). Accurate?

id say so. Me and gf marathoned the whole season it was that good from the 1st minute till credits

 

[UFO]

Haven't read a post here yet. I heard tonight that this documentary is Dateline x100(meaning sooo good). Accurate?

Yes its fantastic. Its gonna mind fuck you, but its really good.

 

[IISANDERII]

Wait, this guy didn't own any underwear? Anybody else catch that or am I hearing things? ep.1

 

[Always-honest]

Wait, this guy didn't own any underwear? Anybody else catch that or am I hearing things? ep.1

Indeed

 

[rinse82]

Yup. If Steven would have had a public defender it would have been game, set, and match once the jury was picked.

The defense team was phenomenal and they seemed not only invested in the case professionally, but personally as well. I was actually kind of shocked when they stopped representing him after the guilty verdict. To me it seemed like once the money was gone they just peaced out and left. Maybe they were still involved though behind the scenes.

There was an article where Dean Strang was interviewed about his thoughts on the doc, and he mentioned that both he and Buting were still in contact with Avery and doing some pro-bono work on the side.

So they're definitely still involved sans paycheck.

 

[BronsonLee]

It's also worth pointing out that nobody really should blame them for bouncing out after the case is over. They did their job, they're not appellate attorneys, etc. It's good that they're keeping around and doing pro-bono work, though.

I hope the Halbachs don't get any blowback from this, especially the brother. They didn't do a damn thing. Their family member was killed. The brother didn't have the benefit of hindsight or being able to have all the info, likely.

 

[mcfrank]

If you were on a jury and the last person who saw the victim had her burned body 20 ft outside his window and her car on his property, could you really acquit? Would be tough.

 

[MThanded]

Just finished up.

Who needs evidence?

This documentary brings to light a lot of stuff wrong with the justice system. The most insane thing was how Brendan's appointed lawyer plotted against him. My jaw dropped.

 

[Dalek]

Episode 4 just makes me insane. How could that confession be not dismissed in court? How can every public official involved in this be completely incompetent or evil?

 

[Brawndo Addict]

This show needed a better editor, it really hampered the quality in my opinion. Just a lot of filler and stretching, 10 one hour episodes was way too much. I honestly felt like they could have cut 1/3-1/2 of material in some episodes and it would have been better paced.

 

[Robot Pants]

This show needed a better editor, it really hampered the quality in my opinion. Just a lot of filler and stretching, 10 one hour episodes was way too much. I honestly felt like they could have cut 1/3-1/2 of material in some episodes and it would have been better paced.

Don't agree

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Smh, and I said I'd never hate watch a series ever again.

 

[DietRob]

If you were on a jury and the last person who saw the victim had her burned body 20 ft outside his window and her car on his property, could you really acquit? Would be tough.

It would be tough but the case is drenched in 'reasonable doubt'.