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[Virzeth]

Spoilers from episodes 5/6 below:

Deleted voicemails, tampered blood vial, missing license plates being reported by the police prior to knowing what vehicle they were looking for, evidence miraculously appearing in areas previously searched and only by people that shouldn't have been there in the first place, only the searchers going to Avery's being given a camera, missing sign ins at a crime scene, conflicting arrival times, missing reports, coerced confessions, botched DNA sampling yet still being used in court, witnesses admitting they lied, defence lawyers working with prosecutors.... Holy fuck, what a circus.

And the worst part of all of this, is

Spoiler

we still haven't fucking clue who did it or what happened.

Ep. 6

@ 19:08

Spoiler

Buting: When we argued, by the way, in last March and filed a motion and said, "We want fair forensic testing. All we want is someone to be there to observe this." They opposed it. They said, "No. We don't want anybody on... Oh, there's so much more potential for contamination." That's what they said. That our person being there would be more risk of contamination when she's contaminated it herself. And used it all up so that we can't retest it.

@ 17:06

Spoiler

Culhane: When we begin the extraction, we begin what's called a manipulation control. And it's basically a negative blank control. And it helps us monitor if any unintentional DNA is introduced into the sample. During the extraction procedure, I inadvertently introduced my own DNA into the negative control.

Gahn: Did that have any impact on your interpretation of your results?

Culhane: It did not have any impact as far as the profile from the evidence sample. It's just the fact that I introduced my own DNA into the manipulation control.

Gahn: And how do you think your DNA profile got into that control?

Culhane: I believe my DNA profile was introduced during the extraction procedure when I was talking. I was training two newer analysts, so I was explaining to them what I was doing as I was setting it up. And apparently... I felt as if I was far enough away from my work bench not to introduce my DNA, but apparently I was incorrect.

This is a detail I think got less attention than it deserved.

Spoiler

So, beside the obvious fuck up of the lab technician herself, having observers from the defense to monitor the procedure was a risk, but it's completely OK to allow students there... Yeah.

For this reason alone the DNA results are as credible to me as the Crimean referendum to join Russia in 2014.
_________________________________

The most frustrating thing-even halfway through this-is that it seems unlikely Steven will ever be exonerated, but that no one involved in the coverup will likely ever be punished or held accountable.

Jesus. The license plate call. It's so obvious!!!!!

Ep. 5

This is the one single inconsistency that's been eating at me the most.

Spoiler

For the life of me I can't think of a decent reason Colborn would call in the license plate if he wasn't directly looking at it at the time.
He says he must've got it from Sgt. Wiegert, but if that were true, why would he need approval from dispatch? Someone earlier in the thread posited he could have jotted it down in a notepad and later forgotten what it was. That might make some sense, except...

@ 14:00

Spoiler

Strang: In 2004, Steven Avery filed a lawsuit seeking some recompense for the hole in his life. The time he had spent as an innocent man for the crimes that Gregory Allen committed. In October 2005, James Lenk and another ranking officer of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, Sergeant Andrew Colborn, both were pulled into the lawsuit, questioned about their own activity and conduct with respect to Mr. Avery's imprisonment. It's Thursday evening about 5:00, November three, when Mrs. Halbach reports Teresa missing. That very night, Calumet is calling the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department for a little bit of help. And who do we get? We get Sergeant Andrew Colborn. And he's told, "Look, two places we'd like to sort of check out and see if Teresa Halbach showed up on Monday: the Zipperer residence... and Steven Avery." Well, that's a name that rings a bell. You better believe. Less than three weeks, or about three weeks after his deposition. And it is interesting that of those two places that Sergeant Colborn is asked to check out and inquire after Teresa Halbach... he only goes to one. Goes to Steven Avery's home.

@54:30

Spoiler

Strang: OK. What you're asking the dispatch is to run a plate that's "Sam-William-Henry-582"? Did I hear that correctly?

Colborn: Yes, sir.

Strang: Sam-William-Henry would be S-W-H-5-8-2?

Colborn: Yes.

Strang: This license plate?

Colborn: Yes, sir.

Strang: And the dispatcher tells you that the plate comes back to a missing person or woman.

Colborn: Yes, sir.

Strang: Teresa Halbach.

Colborn: Yes, sir.

Strang: And then you tell the dispatcher, "Oh, '99 Toyota?"

Colborn: No, I thought she told me that.

[Recorded Phone Call]

Spoiler

Lynn (Dispatch): It shows that she's a missing person. And it lists to Teresa Halbach.

Colborn: OK.

Lynn: OK, that's what you're looking for, Andy?

Colborn: Ninety-nine Toyota?

Lynn: Yep.

Colborn: OK, thank you.

Lynn: You're so welcome. Bye-bye.

[/Recorded Phone Call]

Spoiler

Strang: Were you looking at these plates when you called them in?

Colborn: No, sir.

Strang: Do you have any recollection of making that phone call?

Colborn: Yeah, I'm guessing eleven-oh-three-oh-five. Probably after I received a phone call from Investigator Wiegert letting me know that there was a missing person.

Strang: Investigator Wiegert, did he give you the license plate number for Teresa Halbach when he called you?

Colborn: You know, I just don't remember the exact content of our conversation then.

Strang: But you think...

Colborn: He had to have given it to me because I wouldn't have had the number any other way.

Strang: Well, you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Toyota.

Colborn: Yes.

Strang: But there's no way you should've been looking at Teresa Halbach's license plate on November three on the back end of a 1999 Toyota.

Colborn: I shouldn't have been and I was not looking at the license plate.

Strang: Because you're aware now that the first time that Toyota was reported found was two days later on November five.

Colborn: Yes, sir.

Spoiler

...if that was the case, he managed to forget about a missing person case (involving Steven Bloody Avery) just about 6 hours (11:03-05 PM) after it was even reported (5PM). On the same day he went (on his own, IIRC, but don't quote me on that) to interview SA, someone he shouldn't probably be allowed to see outside of a courtroom considering the ongoing lawsuit.

_________________________________

You can't be serious. Far more of a suspect? There couldn't possibly be a bigger suspect than the man that was assumed to see her last, has her car with his blood/sweat inside of it parked on his property, with her burnt bones and burnt cell phone 20ft from his door.

I'm not saying Avery did it, but he was the ultimate suspect. Whether or not that was all by design, we'll probably never know, but there is no bigger suspect.

Wrong. Rather, there was no other suspect.

Ep. 5

@ 16:03

Spoiler

Strang: November five, Saturday, Pam and Nikole Sturm find the Toyota they suspect, correctly as it turns out, is Teresa's. And folks, from that point forward, before the police say they've even opened the car, before they say they know of any blood of any sort, in or on the car, before anybody even knows whether this young woman has been hurt or killed... the focus is on Steven Avery. Hear it yourself. When Detective Jacobs was calling after the police have arrived at the Avery property, after Teresa's car has been found there.

[Recorded Phone Call]

Spoiler

Katie: Good morning, Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department. Katie speaking.

Jacobs: Katie, just rolled into the parking lot. Can you tell me, do we have a body or anything yet?

Katie: I don't believe so.

Jacobs: Do we have Steven Avery in custody, though?

Katie: I have no idea.

[/Recorded Phone Call]

Spoiler

Strang: This is 30 minutes after they found the car. Indeed, they wouldn't find the first bone fragment for three days. "Do we have Steven Avery in custody, though?" Now, if you're thinking though that the evidence will show you that Manitowoc County bowed out because of the conflict of interest after it turned the investigation over to Calumet County... If you're thinking that, it's reasonable, but you're wrong.

[Transcripts from http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org - can't attest to the accurateness of anything I did not quote, as they are the only parts I personally checked. Rough timestamps, formatting and names of the person speaking added by me.]

 

[Erigu]

Spoilers from episodes 5/6 below:

Spoiler

...if that was the case, he managed to forget about a missing person case (involving Steven Bloody Avery) just about 6 hours (11:03-05 PM) after it was even reported (5PM).

Spoiler

Isn't that actually the date? "11/03/05", as in "November 3, 2005"?
Of course, your point would still stand, as that would mean that call could have been made even earlier than you thought.

 

[G-Bus]

Finished episode 5 last night. Kind of got sucked in after the 2nd and just kept watching.

CRAY stuff.

 

[skybald]

I honestly think Avery committed the murder but don't think there was enough evidence to convicted him.

I am not sure if Dassey had anything to do with it but I do think he should have had another trial.

 

[cwmartin]

If there wasn't enough evidence to convict, is there something besides your gut that makes you think he did it?

 

[Dalek]

If there wasn't enough evidence to convict, is there something besides your gut that makes you think he did it?

In before "if he didn't do it-who did?!"

 

[WJD]

Holy shit this is one of the most infuriating things I've ever watched.

Wall-to-wall cretins involved in every step of the arrest and prosecution.

 

[yyzjohn]

Most of the time it is someone the victim knew, mostly it's a significant other or ex, but if we assume that Teresa's bones and her car, complete with Avery's blood and sweat, were not planted, there's really no reason to look anywhere else.

The ex might've had a rock solid alibi for all we know. But investigators are going to start at the last place the victim was seen alive, then they're going to focus on the last known person to see them alive.

Spoiler

But the defense lawyer asked the ex if cops ever questioned him or considered him a suspect and he said no. They also mentioned that him or the roommate were never considered as suspects. Don't think the doc glazed over this. They should have been considered.

 

[yyzjohn]

Spoiler

The one part that I couldn't believe wasn't focused on more was the cop calling in the license plate of the Rav4. I believe it was Nov 2nd, before she was reported missing, so why would the cop be calling in the plate unless he's there looking at it.


Edit:

Actually I think it was Nov 3rd the same day she was reported missing. So the cop finds the car but he knows he can't admit it if he was searching the Avery property cause it would be inadmissible. So he tells the searchers exactly where the car is which helps that chick find it in like 30 minutes. So fishy it isn't even funny.


Edit 2:
The cop had no explanation as to why he called in the plate on November 3rd. He looked very uncomfortable on the stand and only said that he wasn't looking at the plate when he called it in. If, as logic would tell us he actually was looking at the car on November 3rd, it's not "officially" found until November 5th which gave cops ample time to do whatever in the fuck they wanted with it. This whole thing makes me sick.

 

[Ingueferroque]

Also check out 'Murder on a Sunday Morning', about a similar case in Jacksonville, except here a 15 year old kid was just plucked from the street and charged with murder because he was black.

 

[skybald]

If there wasn't enough evidence to convict, is there something besides your gut that makes you think he did it?

Avery's calls to to Halbechs company about getting her out again. The allegation that he showed up at the door in a towel one time when she was on the property. These things show a mild sexual obsession he might have had for her.

The cellphone parts and jean parts being in the fire.

The lack of EDTA in the blood. If there is a better test now, why don't they retest it? The other DNA source they found in the hood of the truck. Both point to Avery being in the truck.

My reasons for thinking he should have been acquitted is they don't have kill site and they don't have good DNA evidence linking Avery to the weapon.

 

[Later Alligator]

Avery's calls to to Halbechs company about getting her out again. The allegation that he showed up at the door in a towel one time when she was on the property. These things show a mild sexual obsession he might have had for her.

The cellphone parts and jean parts being in the fire.

The lack of EDTA in the blood. If there is a better test now, why don't they retest it? The other DNA source they found in the hood of the truck. Both point to Avery being in the truck.

My reasons for thinking he should have been acquitted is they don't have kill site and they don't have good DNA evidence linking Avery to the weapon.

i'm not entirely convinced avery was 100% innocent either

i'm 100% sure it didn't go down like brendans story though. and there's so much corruption involved in the prosecution that it should have been a mistrial, as shitty as that is for Theresa's family

 

[Dalek]

7 jurors were convinced from the trial he was innocent. Wow.

 

[skybald]

7 jurors were convinced from the trial he was innocent. Wow.

12 Angry Men should work the other way too

 

[Late Flag]

7 jurors were convinced from the trial he was innocent. Wow.

I was pretty floored by this too. How does a majority of the jury allow themselves to get talked into sending a guy to jail for life when they were going to let him go originally? That's hard to wrap my mind around.

 

[UFO]

Add FBI guy to the list of slimey shitbags. Scientifically certain that 3 swabs NOT tested would contain EDTA. Fucking idiot doesn't even know what science means.

 

[Dalek]

Add FBI guy to the list of slimey shitbags. Scientifically certain that 3 swabs NOT tested would contain EDTA. Fucking idiot doesn't even know what science means.

It was clear he felt challenged and pushed back just to do so. The question they asked was perfectly reasonable. It's like if I asked if there was any poisoned milk at Safeway and you go and test one gallon. Then you come back and tell me without a doubt there is no poisoned milk in the entire store.

 

[EthanC]

Just finished it. It was engrossing and also gross. Felt like they dedicated one episode to a scumbag that was falsely imprisoned by other scumbags, and then spent 9 episodes glorifying a piece of shit murderer. The pretense of his prior false arrest creating a murderer is utter nonsense.

 

[beta_fuse]

Just finished it. It was engrossing and also gross. Felt like they dedicated one episode to a scumbag that was falsely imprisoned by other scumbags, and then spent 9 episodes glorifying a piece of shit murderer. The pretense of his prior false arrest creating a murderer is utter nonsense.

I'm pretty sure creating a murderer doesn't come from his prior false arrest but instead from the planted evidence, poorly executed procedures and framing of his second arrest.

 

[finalflame]

Just finished it. It was engrossing and also gross. Felt like they dedicated one episode to a scumbag that was falsely imprisoned by other scumbags, and then spent 9 episodes glorifying a piece of shit murderer. The pretense of his prior false arrest creating a murderer is utter nonsense.

Hold on -- after watching the entire documentary you believe Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are guilty of Teresa Halbach's murder? Did we watch the same thing?

 

[EthanC]

Hold on -- after watching the entire documentary you believe Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey are guilty of Teresa Halbach's murder? Did we watch the same thing?

Yes without question. But then again I've never been a conspiracy nut.

 

[BronsonLee]

Yes without question. But then again I've never been a conspiracy nut.

Most people aren't. Stuff like Serial and this more highlight the failings of the criminal justice system than anything. With Serial, it was bad, but with this one, it's REALLY bad.

 

[UFO]

Just finished it. It was engrossing and also gross. Felt like they dedicated one episode to a scumbag that was falsely imprisoned by other scumbags, and then spent 9 episodes glorifying a piece of shit murderer. The pretense of his prior false arrest creating a murderer is utter nonsense.

I didn't know Tereas's brother posted here, crazy.

 

[EthanC]

Most people aren't. Stuff like Serial and this more highlight the failings of the criminal justice system than anything. With Serial, it was bad, but with this one, it's REALLY bad.

Adnan is guilty as well. Or do you actually believe his bullshit story that he can't remember anything from the day that he was told his girlfriend that he loved went missing.

 

[BronsonLee]

I didn't know Tereas's brother posted here, crazy.

Ugh.

Adnan is guilty as well. Or do you actually believe his bullshit story that he can't remember anything from the day that he was told his girlfriend that he loved went missing.

Both shows are mainly intriguing because of how badly the cases they're covering were handled, no?

Your personal opinions on who is guilty can definitely color your enjoyment of the shows, but you're handwaving it. I doubt many of the people watching and enjoying the shows are conspiracy nuts.

 

[Dalek]

Adnan is guilty as well. Or do you actually believe his bullshit story that he can't remember anything from the day that he was told his girlfriend that he loved went missing.

 

[finalflame]

Yes without question. But then again I've never been a conspiracy nut.

Can you please expand? This documentary isn't for conspiracy theorists, it's to show a major failing of the justice system. There are so many holes in the prosecution's story that it makes absolutely no sense that Steven Avery was the killer.

I think it's because of people like you that Avery is behind bars and this bullshit of a trial got a guilty verdict.

 

[Dalek]

Can you please expand? This documentary isn't for conspiracy theorists, it's to show a major failing of the justice system. There are so many holes in the prosecution's story that it makes absolutely no sense that Steven Avery was the killer.

I think it's because of people like you that Avery is behind bars and this bullshit of a trial got a guilty verdict.

I was on jury duty once and in the selection process I heard someone say something along the lines of "I can tell someone is guilty just by looking at them."

It's chilling to think that someone like this could determine your future.

 

[BronsonLee]

Vague spoilers.

Now, for the sake of impartiality, both shows are relatively skewed towards the defendant by nature. I personally feel a few people get caught in the crossfire because of it,

Spoiler

like Teresa's brother and the special investigators (it feels like they thought they got gold with Brendan, and didn't see the forest for the trees with him).

And then there's just some people that just confuse the shit out of me. I have no fucking clue what Kachinsky and O'Kelly were doing. Kratz is full of shit. Don't even get me -started- on Colburn and Lenk.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

I don't think I can watch episode 10.

 

[BronsonLee]

I don't think I can watch episode 10.

For the sake of completion and finality, finish it up.

 

[RustyNails]

Adnan is guilty as well. Or do you actually believe his bullshit story that he can't remember anything from the day that he was told his girlfriend that he loved went missing.

Yes without question. But then again I've never been a conspiracy nut.

Were you taught critical thinking in school? Do you always accept the events described by any authority?

 

[GK86]

Are they really allowed to do that? Tell the jurors, we want/we ask/we etc, you as the jurors, to return back a verdict of guilty?

 

[Sectorseven]

When he was sent to prison the second time, did the convicts know about his predicament? If so, did they treat him differently?

 

[Dalek]

One thing that blew my mind was how often the system moved him around to different prisons. The guy is in Wisconsin and then they send him to some random prison in Tenessee? What the hell.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I'm on episode 4 and this is the most frustrating show I've ever watched. Top-notch drama, but argh @ this Brendan kid!!!! Also his

Spoiler

damn lawyer needs to get thrown out on his ass.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

Episode 4.

This Brendan kid is pissing me off. Just tell the truth you stupid fuck. He has like 8 different stories. You could say he blasted off to the moon after killing her and he would agree.

This whole family is pissing me off. Feels like everyone has an iq of 5 or some shit.

 

[finalflame]

Episode 4.

This Brendan kid is pissing me off. Just tell the truth you stupid fuck. He has like 8 different stories. You could say he blasted off to the moon after killing her and he would agree.

This whole family is pissing me off. Feels like everyone has an iq of 5 or some shit.

I think one thing that comes through is that they all had pretty low cognitive abilities; both Steven Avery's and Brendan's IQs are presented during the show. Brendan has far below average cognitive abilities and is learning disabled. The cops are taking advantage of him to get the answers they want, and unfortunately he is susceptible to that as a child instead of a 16 year old boy.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Episode 4.
This Brendan kid is pissing me off. Just tell the truth you stupid fuck. He has like 8 different stories. You could say he blasted off to the moon after killing her and he would agree.

This whole family is pissing me off. Feels like everyone has an iq of 5 or some shit.

seems odd to be mad at them when you know they are quite stupid people. It's not as if it's their fault.

The justice system completely took advantage of Brendan. That's what you should be mad about.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Holy crap @ the bombshell at the end of Ep 4.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

seems odd to be mad at them when you know they are quite stupid people. It's not as if it's their fault.

The justice system completely took advantage of Brendan. That's what you should be mad about.

Steven I'm OK with. I'm mad at the investigators too. But this dumb kid changes his story even to his mom. His mom asks of its true. "no". Later she asked him again. "yes". She asks him again. "no".

 

[rocksteady1983]

So we watched this, then The Staircase, and Murder on a Sunday Morning tonight. All very good but not as engrossing as this. I will say Murder on a Sunday Morning had an awesome public defender. Can't find the Staircase 2 online anywhere unfortunately. Already watched the Paradise Lost and Thin Blue Line. I'd recommend The Imposter (Netflix). Not really in this same vein but extremely interesting and very WTF.

 

[suzu]

Episode 4.

This Brendan kid is pissing me off. Just tell the truth you stupid fuck. He has like 8 different stories. You could say he blasted off to the moon after killing her and he would agree.

This whole family is pissing me off. Feels like everyone has an iq of 5 or some shit.

This reaction is weird to me. It's not like the kid can help it being the way he is.

 

[UFO]

Finally finished all the episodes. I was angry watching this throughout, but now I'm just depressed. Watching all the precedings, watching all these slimly "cops" get caught in lies, and nobody gave a damn. The only thing that mattered was a conviction. The Judge with his sob story about Steven being the most dangerous ever in the court room, his escalading tendency towards violence, it was disgusting. And then Brendans mis-trial appeal, when they expose all the shitty things the interrogators and lawyers did, the judge just goes "Meh, who fucking cares. Denied." These people make me sick. Makes me ashamed of this country.

 

[BarringGaffner]

Steven I'm OK with. I'm mad at the investigators too. But this dumb kid changes his story even to his mom. His mom asks of its true. "no". Later she asked him again. "yes". She asks him again. "no".

It's quite clear why though... Because of the way they interrogated and led him on, Brendan doesn't equate 'the truth' with honesty, but with what they want to hear. So when his mom wants 'the truth' it's not any less confusing for him.

It's hard to understand what it's like to not know something, especially a concept like 'the truth'. You need to understand he just doesn't understand to feel empathy for Brendan and his situation.

 

[GK86]

Fuck every one of those assholes that made Steven's life a living hell. I hope karma curses them and their families for all eternity. They deserve everything that life has coming their way.

 

[Jerm411]

Still can't get over....

Spoiler

That key...dubiously falls out of a desk under a pair of slippers during another search after it had not been there in multiple previous searches...ok. Not to mention Avery's DNA being the only present on said key...WTF???

Also does anyone else...

Spoiler

...think Tadych and Brandon Massey are suspicious as hell here? I mean they try to alibi themselves, their timelines don't match, Massey was caught lying, and they both completely shit all over Avery/younger Dassey. I do believe there's more than meets the eye with those two.

 

[AniHawk]

Spoiler

...think Tadych and Brandon Massey are suspicious as hell here? I mean they try to alibi themselves, their timelines don't match, Massey was caught lying, and they both completely shit all over Avery/younger Dassey. I do believe there's more than meets the eye with those two.

i think they're the most suspicious ones to be honest. more than the ex-boyfriend or teresa's brother (who just seems like a dull guy out for vengeance).

 

[Mikey Jr.]

It's quite clear why though... Because of the way they interrogated and led him on, Brendan doesn't equate 'the truth' with honesty, but with what they want to hear. So when his mom wants 'the truth' it's not any less confusing for him.

It's hard to understand what it's like to not know something, especially a concept like 'the truth'. You need to understand he just doesn't understand to feel empathy for Brendan and his situation.

I guess. I'm just mad cause I don't want this kid to go to jail. Like when he was writing that letter, I just kept saying "don't fucking change your story kid. Stick with it!" then he caves and starts drawing pictures and shit...

Hopefully he turns out OK.

Also, fucking bombshell at the end of ep4. This genuinely feels like a made up story, lol. It us unreal.

 

[BarringGaffner]

I guess. I'm just mad cause I don't want this kid to go to jail. Like when he was writing that letter, I just kept saying "don't fucking change your story kid. Stick with it!" then he caves and starts drawing pictures and shit...

Hopefully he turns out OK.

Also, fucking bombshell at the end of ep4. This genuinely feels like a made up story, lol. It us unreal.

Yeah, it's frustrating for sure!

Keep watching. I'd stay out of this thread to avoid spoilers too.