fatigues_gasolini
Member
This is what I came away from it with. The reasonable doubt was there for a not guilty verdict, but it seemed like some stuff went on in the jury room to change peoples minds.
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Making A Murderer - Netflix 10-part documentary series - S1 now streaming on Netflix
- Thread starter Armadilo
- Start date
This is what I came away from it with. The reasonable doubt was there for a not guilty verdict, but it seemed like some stuff went on in the jury room to change peoples minds.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
naw man, that's just a TOTAL coincidence. What are you, some kind of conspiracy nut?
Just for the record, "it's my belief Steven Avery is a piece of shit" is the exact reason he was thrown in jail for 18 years for a crime he didn't commit. I think you missed the moral of episode 1
Actually to set the record straight, only 12 of those 18 years were for the rape allegation. He would have served 6 years for running the woman off the road and holding a gun to her. He cut a deal to serve that time at the same time as his rape trial.
UltimaPooh
Member
Everyone talks about all this extra evidence... but I never actually see it.
Yeah, if the "extra evidence" is the "came to the door in a towel" and the phone calls that proves absolutely nothing about this case. The towel story came from a friend who said Teresa told her about it, didn't come from Teresa's boss and there was no evidence to show that she had a problem going back to that address. The phone calls? The defense showed that someone deleted voicemail from her phone, unless you think Avery somehow did it, that is very suspicious.
Yep. Am I the only one who thinks they did a carrot/stick kind of thing? In that Strang took the soft approach, the empathetic guy, while Butting was more critical and to the point. Maybe it was just their respective styles, but it seemed to be a good combo.
Legends.
Yeah it was like "good cop/bad cop" where Buting was hard on cross examination. They did a very good job of poking holes in the case.
Legends.
I am sorry if this is crude, but seeing smart people finally get involved made me sigh a breath of relief.
LaserBuddha
Member
These are the major reasons why the evidence from outside of the doc doesn't convince me of Avery's guilt:
-What I dont see brought up is why her blood would be in the car based on Brendan and the prosecution's version of events. They carried her from the house to the garage to the burn pit, allegedly. But the prosecution claimed her blood in the car showed that blood-matted hair had rested there, meaning she was transported in the back of that vehicle.
-Avery could not have shot her or stabbed her in the garage or his house. He couldn't have completely gotten rid of all that blood in his house or especially in the garage, where examination of the cement indicated someone couldn't have just cleaned it with bleach. But despite evidence-destroying super powers and having the equipment specifically for getting rid of cars, Avery left her car as unhidden as he could without putting right out in front to dare people to see it, and he just left her remains randomly around in plain sight for the cops who he obviously knew would search his home. Avery was established as having below-average intelligence when he was younger, so that could contribute to explaining these completely stupid moves, but then how does he eradicate any evidence whatsoever that she was killed on his property? To believe Avery did this as the police tell it, he is simultaneously the dumbest and smartest person in the world and can clean up blood and DNA to an extent that is humanly impossible (while only leaving behind some obvious DNA in a few ways that just happen to be easily plantable).
-Despite Brendan's claims, he clearly couldnt tell prosecutors what really happened to her. They had to plant the idea of her body being burned in his head, of him seeing body parts being burned, and they had to plant the idea in his head of her being shot. He guessed at what he and Avery did with her and none of his specific claims (stabbing, cutting hair, shackling) are supported by physical evidence.
-The victim said her ex-boyfriend was sending her harassing messages and she told a coworker she was going to meet him to deal with it after leaving Avery's. And this same ex-boyfriend logged into her voicemail, and messages were deleted. And he offered no explanation of that. He seems at least as likely as Avery. I think the fact that he wasn't investigated at all establishes reasonable doubt all by itself.
-What I dont see brought up is why her blood would be in the car based on Brendan and the prosecution's version of events. They carried her from the house to the garage to the burn pit, allegedly. But the prosecution claimed her blood in the car showed that blood-matted hair had rested there, meaning she was transported in the back of that vehicle.
-Avery could not have shot her or stabbed her in the garage or his house. He couldn't have completely gotten rid of all that blood in his house or especially in the garage, where examination of the cement indicated someone couldn't have just cleaned it with bleach. But despite evidence-destroying super powers and having the equipment specifically for getting rid of cars, Avery left her car as unhidden as he could without putting right out in front to dare people to see it, and he just left her remains randomly around in plain sight for the cops who he obviously knew would search his home. Avery was established as having below-average intelligence when he was younger, so that could contribute to explaining these completely stupid moves, but then how does he eradicate any evidence whatsoever that she was killed on his property? To believe Avery did this as the police tell it, he is simultaneously the dumbest and smartest person in the world and can clean up blood and DNA to an extent that is humanly impossible (while only leaving behind some obvious DNA in a few ways that just happen to be easily plantable).
-Despite Brendan's claims, he clearly couldnt tell prosecutors what really happened to her. They had to plant the idea of her body being burned in his head, of him seeing body parts being burned, and they had to plant the idea in his head of her being shot. He guessed at what he and Avery did with her and none of his specific claims (stabbing, cutting hair, shackling) are supported by physical evidence.
-The victim said her ex-boyfriend was sending her harassing messages and she told a coworker she was going to meet him to deal with it after leaving Avery's. And this same ex-boyfriend logged into her voicemail, and messages were deleted. And he offered no explanation of that. He seems at least as likely as Avery. I think the fact that he wasn't investigated at all establishes reasonable doubt all by itself.
I found the documentary to be a great watch, but remember that the show had an agenda to show both of these lawyers as white knights. It's just like Central Park Five. That doc had an agenda to get an appeal and money when some likely dirty stuff did go down, and this one is no different.
I'm certainly in agreement that there is some crazy shit that went down with the police, but it's hard to ignore the linkages that are there. Did they prove beyond a reasonable doubt? No, but that's actually the more pertinent question of the show.
When the show starts casting any slightly muddled piece of evidence as a smoking gun, that becomes a problem. Just the same when they try and counterpoint Teresa's brother saying something with some sympathetic evidence for Steve. It shows the bias of the documentary a little too clearly. They needed to create a whodunnit, and they did.
Undeniably, though, there are some insane coincidences with the state and what they did to get a conviction.
Good seeing ol' Kratz get some comeuppance.
Not only was the ex boyfriend not considered a suspect, he was actually allowed on site to organize a search. I find that mind boggling.
The password "guessing" stuff was pretty wild. It's circumstantial, but that always jumped out at me big time. Who are these people? Sherlock?
Sadly, short of new evidence or a confession we may never know what happened in this case.
Wait-is it true that Teresa told someone about harassing messages from the ex-boyfriend? Was that in the documentary and I zoned out? Because if that's true, and the voicemails mysteriously disappeared and he just "happened" to correctly guess her password then that's fucking insane.
Did you mean to respond to me?
I don't remember that in the documentary.
I'm surprised so many of you think that being able to guess a close friend or relative's password is suspicious. Plenty of non-tech-savvy people's passwords are things like their dog's name or their birthday.
Miles Quaritch
Member
It was hinted that she was being harassed during one of the interviews. Nothing more than that, which I found really strange.
Yeah one wittiness testified she was getting multiple calls and she knew who it was. He offered to intervene and she says don't worry about it.
BronsonLee
Member
I found a couple of things odd about that.
1: If it was about Avery, that's work related, you think she would tell her boss about it so he can handle it.
2: It's basically never followed up on after that, so I'd have to hazard a guess that the documentary makers put it in there to point at other people. They've got hours and hours of footage, I get the feeling they have an opinion on what happened that just bleeds out.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Yeah, they never said it was her ex that was calling her.
Not just you, but more just the sentiment that some were expressing about Buting and Strang. I enjoyed their spirit as well, but the documentary had way more access to them, and it had an agenda to show them as competent, truthful and human.
I think another documentary would have had more distance from all parties in the judicial process, and it could have let us have a more fair shake at who these people really are.
What I'm getting at is that there could be an edit where someone could make Kratz look sympathetic or Buting look sleazy. It's all in the power of the filmmakers, and they had access mainly to one side. We don't get any heart-to-heart talks with the prosecution, as the documentary had a pretty clear agenda.
The prosecution could all be scumbags, but we'll never know. I just think there's a more skillful edit that could be done in the spirit of fairness to both sides, but either way, it still makes for a compelling yarn.
It's not that wild. I could easily guess a 4 digit pin that my ex-gf set up. It's not that difficult if you know the person.
I don't see how anyone could even consider him a suspect. Teresa's cell phone never ping'd outside of Avery's private property. Whoever killed her did it on Avery's private property. Unless you think she forgot her cell phone at Avery's, which the "real killer" would've had to go back and retrieve it, then burn it in one of Avery's burn barrels?
G-Bus
Banned
I don't know the validity because it wasn't in the documentary and is said to be some of the more damning evidance against Avery but he supposedly contacted auto trader asking for her specifically multiple times and that she had asked her boss not to send her to his trailer and was made to do so anyway.
BronsonLee
Member
Who was the witness that testified about it? Was that her boss/co-worker?
SneakersSO
Member
Well, we know that Ken Kratz is FACTUALLY a scumbag (sexually harassing a sexual abuse victim he was defending), and that people in the Wisconsin Justice Department knowingly worked to cover up that fact for nearly a year, meaning they are just as culpable
Pretty foul ongoings.
- Depositions. They start a paper trail the day after he gets out, and look uncomfortable on the stand when asked about it. Why did Lenk and Colbourn even bother? Why did they keep volunteering. Why did they provide all the critical evidence?
- The license plate deal. Colbourn phones in the plate number and model of the vehicle days before?
- The car. Why leave the car right there and make barely any effort to cover it when it could have been crushed and never found? Steven did that for a living.
- The bones. Why move it? Why leave it right outside your bedroom? There were better options.
- The tampered (broken tape seals) Styrofoam case and punctured vial.
- The key. None of her DNA on it after years? He cleans and keeps it, and leaves his? What? And they find it after half a dozen searches of that room? And the prosecution distances themselves from the key later.
- Lack of blood in the trailer and garage. Like, absolutely no blood anywhere. Look how messy that garage was. Unless she was specifically wrapped up meticulously and then shot... (which seems asinine) but I still don't see how you find the bullet fragment months later.
- The bullet.
- Deleted messages. Accidents happen, but come on.
- Outright lies by the family (Bobby, Scott). Completely contradicted by the third party.
- Coercion of Brendan. So they convict him on mutilation of the corpse and the rape. Really? His first defense team tried to put him away. The defense investigator crying on the stand about the bow, but transcripts of him saying they have to cut down the family tree. Are you serious?
Nothing was found until Manitowoc (specifically Lenk) got involved. Expert testimony that the pit wasn't the primary burn site. I mean, there's so much wrong with it, how can you possibly give a guilty verdict? Sexual perversion or not.
The prosecutor was a legitimate creep, and then the sex thing coming out later was the shocking but not shocking revelation.
Crazy how a stubborn juror or two can sway the whole group with such a lack of evidence.
- Depositions. They start a paper trail the day after he gets out, and look uncomfortable on the stand when asked about it. Why did Lenk and Colbourn even bother? Why did they keep volunteering. Why did they provide all the critical evidence?
- The license plate deal. Colbourn phones in the plate number and model of the vehicle days before?
- The car. Why leave the car right there and make barely any effort to cover it when it could have been crushed and never found? Steven did that for a living.
- The bones. Why move it? Why leave it right outside your bedroom? There were better options.
- The tampered (broken tape seals) Styrofoam case and punctured vial.
- The key. None of her DNA on it after years? He cleans and keeps it, and leaves his? What? And they find it after half a dozen searches of that room? And the prosecution distances themselves from the key later.
- Lack of blood in the trailer and garage. Like, absolutely no blood anywhere. Look how messy that garage was. Unless she was specifically wrapped up meticulously and then shot... (which seems asinine) but I still don't see how you find the bullet fragment months later.
- The bullet.
- Deleted messages. Accidents happen, but come on.
- Outright lies by the family (Bobby, Scott). Completely contradicted by the third party.
- Coercion of Brendan. So they convict him on mutilation of the corpse and the rape. Really? His first defense team tried to put him away. The defense investigator crying on the stand about the bow, but transcripts of him saying they have to cut down the family tree. Are you serious?
Nothing was found until Manitowoc (specifically Lenk) got involved. Expert testimony that the pit wasn't the primary burn site. I mean, there's so much wrong with it, how can you possibly give a guilty verdict? Sexual perversion or not.
The prosecutor was a legitimate creep, and then the sex thing coming out later was the shocking but not shocking revelation.
Crazy how a stubborn juror or two can sway the whole group with such a lack of evidence.
HalfBakedProphet
Member
The two cases became intertwined but its very unlikely he would have served the full 6 by itself on the assault and possessing a firearm as a felon. he was sentenced 18 for the rape.
But yeah, I stand by the point I was making
SneakersSO
Member
Finished watching this yesterday, and like many others, haven't been able to get this case out of my mind. I'm glad this is bringing up exposure of this case, some of the obvious failings of our criminal justice system, and the lengths law enforcement is willing to go to get a conviction.
While I do praise the filmmakers for being so thorough, largely thanks to the format Making A Murderer enjoys (a multi-episode format), I would have liked one piece of elaboration regarding the Avery's that is alluded to, but never really spelt out, which would've gone a long way to seeming more impartial.
What would've gone a long ways to moving this series more towards the center, towards impartiality, for me is if they had gone into more detail regarding this seemingly well-known family history, at least to members of that community. The family is described as criminals, and while I don't doubt it, we never really see that outside of Avery's own actions/non-actions as it were, which I know are a focal point of this documentary, but it seems that so many of the opponents of Steven Avery during his legal battles are at least partially motivated by this knowledge.
While I do praise the filmmakers for being so thorough, largely thanks to the format Making A Murderer enjoys (a multi-episode format), I would have liked one piece of elaboration regarding the Avery's that is alluded to, but never really spelt out, which would've gone a long way to seeming more impartial.
At two specific points, we see that there is an innate animosity towards the Avery family within Manitowoc county; in episode 1, when we're going over the incident with Sandra Morris, and the dealings of Steven's first conviction, we get an inkling as to how the surrounding area felt about the Avery's. We even have a comparison between the Avery's & the Beernsten's, with the Avery's being viewed as the unwanted reality versus the Beernsten's being the Manitowoc ideal family. Later, we hear Michael O'Kelley read an email he wrote to Brendan's attorney, and how he had learnt of the family history of the Avery's, and how they needed to be 'removed from the gene pool'. The Avery's are described as being pure evil & twisted.
What would've gone a long ways to moving this series more towards the center, towards impartiality, for me is if they had gone into more detail regarding this seemingly well-known family history, at least to members of that community. The family is described as criminals, and while I don't doubt it, we never really see that outside of Avery's own actions/non-actions as it were, which I know are a focal point of this documentary, but it seems that so many of the opponents of Steven Avery during his legal battles are at least partially motivated by this knowledge.
I took it that their family just were somewhat isolated and didn't make any effort to integrate into society as a whole and because of this were distrusted. The lived out in the middle of nowhere, were socially awkward, poor and uncouth. With the rape trial and this murder trial people just connected the dots in their head to make it seem like they were these outcasts with some sinister leanings.
If anything-even as poor and uneducated as they were-Steven's parents seemed incredibly sweet and loyal. Seeing Steven's dad walk around the fish farm he had built and then later the garden brought literal tears to my eyes. These parents lived a tortured life and were powerless.
SneakersSO
Member
While I agree on the poor & uneducated part, I don't necessarily think they were as much 'outcasts', at least not from what was presented on the show. The Avery Auto Body Shop seemed to be a huge, well-known junk/salvage yard at some point, and they were at least well known enough that a group of people within the local Sheriff's Department actively conspired against Steven. It seems like the family was rather large, with many of its members being involved in various things throughout Manitowoc County.
Through the decades, whether it was on the back of Steven's initial charges or his eventual acquittal, the Avery's acquired a reputation that seems to go beyond what the show depicted, at least to me anyway.
I agree. There was definitely more to the story there. I would love an unbiased in-depth look at the whole situation. I feel like there was a lot of interesting stuff left out because it conflicted with the story the filmmakers wanted to put out.
When every member of the prosecution refuses to be interviewed or make a comment in the documentary, I think it's pretty clear why it appears "one-sided".
Jacksinthe
Banned
I've looked at this for a long time and read a lot of non-Netflix transcripts. This is where I stand:
Much like the Casey Anthony case, I don't think there was sufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict, however, I feel Avery could have done it quite easily. He was very much an unstable individual prior to this trial and reading the details of Brendan's interrogation that wasnt shown in the show - you clearly see he wasn't being coerced with a great many details as he just gave up the ghost without hesitation. Netflix chose portions of the interview that leaned on Brendan causing him to lock up - making the two officers interrogate him fish the information out of him, staging the scene.
So part of it sounded all well and clear without coersion and the part eveyone else saw was after he crumbled under pressure. His phone calls with his mother were also more than clear, only changing the story at later dates.
I also feel like Lenk planted the key and bullet in an effort to make sure they could nail Avery. Not to send an innocent man to jail, but to make sure their man got bit.
I think Avery was more than capable of committing murder based on his previous sickening behaviour seemingly ratcheting up its shittyness with every action, add 18 years of jailtime and that mind has been brewing something more than human. I just don't think the prosecution's timeline of events makes sense or has enough evidence to support the case.
I would not put forth a verdict of guilty based on the evidence, but there are enough dots to connect to form an opinion, however, not without reasonable doubt.
Messed up all around.
Much like the Casey Anthony case, I don't think there was sufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict, however, I feel Avery could have done it quite easily. He was very much an unstable individual prior to this trial and reading the details of Brendan's interrogation that wasnt shown in the show - you clearly see he wasn't being coerced with a great many details as he just gave up the ghost without hesitation. Netflix chose portions of the interview that leaned on Brendan causing him to lock up - making the two officers interrogate him fish the information out of him, staging the scene.
So part of it sounded all well and clear without coersion and the part eveyone else saw was after he crumbled under pressure. His phone calls with his mother were also more than clear, only changing the story at later dates.
I also feel like Lenk planted the key and bullet in an effort to make sure they could nail Avery. Not to send an innocent man to jail, but to make sure their man got bit.
I think Avery was more than capable of committing murder based on his previous sickening behaviour seemingly ratcheting up its shittyness with every action, add 18 years of jailtime and that mind has been brewing something more than human. I just don't think the prosecution's timeline of events makes sense or has enough evidence to support the case.
I would not put forth a verdict of guilty based on the evidence, but there are enough dots to connect to form an opinion, however, not without reasonable doubt.
Messed up all around.
How can there be zero doubt that anyone raped her? Where there signs of rape on the bones? Did they find sperm on her belongings? Did someone see her get raped? Or do you base all of this on the fact that two detectives told a mentally handicapped teenager that he raped her until he said "ok, I did it"?
G-Bus
Banned
Like I said I don't know the validity of any of it because it's a 3rd party source that doesn't say where the information is coming from. I'm just googling stuff to see what evidance people are talking about that wasnt in the documentary and seems to paint him as the murderer.
That's not even what I'm talking about. An episode of Dateline goes into more depth about the people involved, and it's only an hour long show. This doc was 10 hours long and Avery seemed like a 1 dimensional character in a poorly written drama. I would've liked more insight about him, and why the town seemed to think the Avery name was so shitty, even prior to Avery's first prison sentence.
ProfessorLobo
Banned
A lot of people seem to say this. Can you give us a quote in the tape that where Brendan's confession either directly corroborated evidence that they already had, or plausible information that Brendan gave without any direct influence by the police?
Was there evidence presented about the cell phone ping? I don't remember that in the doc (unless it was evidence that was brought forth and not shown in the doc). Also what does the ping mean? Does it indicate which cell phone tower her phone was connected to? Back in 2005 how many cell phone towers would have been around that rural area? Is one enough to cover the entire Avery site? I honestly don't know.
Jacksinthe
Banned
There's several HOURS of video on YouTube. I'm not watching his interrogation again to pull quotes, lol. There's a lot of him talking openly while not clamming up or being led. Again, several hours of video. Its a slog to watch so I'm not doing it again.
Links to transcripts I believe were also posted in this thread or links to sites where you can find them.
I also said there's enough dots to form an opinion, but not a legit verdict wihout reasonable doubt.
j0hnnix
Member
While I have not finished the season(on Ep.6) I find it interesting how certain evidence was discovered,
, there is nothing conclusive.. This is a conspiracy theory ,sorry gaf, but that land is very nice for the county 😱.
Beyond that crazy theory,this show is amazing, so intriguing, very well done. It had me up all night watching it.
the woman finding the Rav in 15mins on a 40+ acre lot. The Key on the floor(I know hes not the brightest but still key only had his dna,common) the bullet shows up months later..
Beyond that crazy theory,this show is amazing, so intriguing, very well done. It had me up all night watching it.
... and also very creepy. I cringe whenever he opens his mouth. When he
talks about the 'massacre' in the trailer, his dramatic pauses and fake emotion made me angry.
Watching this is so frustrating. It's surreal to see two skilled and highly professional lawyers fight against a conspiracy that like half the town was involved in. Kratz, Colborn, Lenk, all vile pieces of filth. Still 2 eps to go.
Seeing Steve's reaction to the verdict in ep8
SneakersSO
Member
Here's the thing though - NONE of Brendan's potential stories match up with any of the evidence that we know are factual. Even if you just take Brendan's confession for being factual, you would still have SEVERAL things you'd have to prove, such as:
-The knife used to carry out the actions Brendan described is no where to be found.
-None of her DNA is found in ANY location on the property, outside of the bullet in the garage, and the pooled blood in the back of her trunk, and the burn pile in the backyard (obviously).
What we do know is that, wherever she did die, she bled, and profusely at that. How do we know? She left pools of her own blood in her own car, which was an obvious transport to where she was burned. At the very least, she was killed at a location, then transported to another location, and we know she was bleeding. The fact that NO blood is found anywhere on Avery's property, on none of his clothing, other than her car, not even in the location's Brendan calls out in his testimony, means that either Steve Avery is a master of forensic investigation techniques, or that Brendan was lying.
And before you say that the evidence (clothing, bedding, knife) could've been destroyed in the fire, realize that there still would've been traces of those things in the ashes. If they still had her bones & other things in the ash pile, they would've found other things in that pile as well, and we would've heard about it.
ZQQLANDER
Member
This is new to me. Never head anything about cell phone pings in the doc or any additional reading I've done.
If Teresa's phone had any activity at all (received/made call or text. Internet activity and downloaded update may be possible depending on type of phone) it would communicate with a cell tower belonging to her cellular provider. Usually it is the closest tower, but this isn't always the case. The range and shape of a tower's coverage can depend on geography, weather, surrounding buildings, etc. There is a special vehicle certain law enforcement agencies have that can be driven around (block by block) to measure the signals. After that you can map an area and which tower pings would "go" to.
For instance, Teresa may have received a call during the time she was at Steven's, but it may have pinged off a tower in Mishicot or near I-43. All pings really do is show a time line of when a person moved from one general location to another general location.
SneakersSO
Member
I also have a question here to the people who have done the research into this, but what is this 'escalation of violence' that the Judge speaks of regarding Steve Avery? I imagine his criminal history is a matter of public record, but what exactly is this escalation they speak of?
I ask this because, unless the show specifically went out of its way to not disclose any standout violent events, wouldn't this mean the Judge was referring to the Rape conviction he was absolved of? I make this observation because, that would mean we have two public officials, both former & current (as of the that time anyway) who believed Steven Avery was in-fact the perpetrator back in 1985; the Judge, and the old head of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's office.
I ask this because, unless the show specifically went out of its way to not disclose any standout violent events, wouldn't this mean the Judge was referring to the Rape conviction he was absolved of? I make this observation because, that would mean we have two public officials, both former & current (as of the that time anyway) who believed Steven Avery was in-fact the perpetrator back in 1985; the Judge, and the old head of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's office.
Escalation of violence being the burglary, the burning of a cat, and the altercation with the deputy's wife where he had a gun.
SneakersSO
Member
These were all things that occurred before his 1985 sentence began, correct? Did he have any violent incidents that occurred in the short time after he had gotten out in 2003?
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