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Making A Murderer - Netflix 10-part documentary series - S1 now streaming on Netflix
- Thread starter Armadilo
- Start date
Bit behind since I just finished the show, but responding to something a few pages back..
Basic Trial 101:
(a) Character Evidence.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a persons character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.
(b) Crimes, Wrongs, or Other Acts.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a crime, wrong, or other act is not admissible to prove a persons character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.
There are exceptions of course, as with most procedural rules (ie. the defense brings the defendant's character into question, in which the prosecution can bring up past offenses to rebut; or defendant takes the stand, in which prosecution can bring up past convictions, particularly ones associated with fraud/dishonesty, to discredit the testimony), but I won't go further into that as you clearly have not taken Trial 101. Introducing past crimes is considered unfairly prejudicial to a defendant in our criminal justice system and is prohibited. They're not on trial for their past crimes and conduct. They are on trial for the alleged charges alone.
Basic Trial 101:
(a) Character Evidence.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a persons character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.
(b) Crimes, Wrongs, or Other Acts.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a crime, wrong, or other act is not admissible to prove a persons character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.
There are exceptions of course, as with most procedural rules (ie. the defense brings the defendant's character into question, in which the prosecution can bring up past offenses to rebut; or defendant takes the stand, in which prosecution can bring up past convictions, particularly ones associated with fraud/dishonesty, to discredit the testimony), but I won't go further into that as you clearly have not taken Trial 101. Introducing past crimes is considered unfairly prejudicial to a defendant in our criminal justice system and is prohibited. They're not on trial for their past crimes and conduct. They are on trial for the alleged charges alone.
Vampire On Titus
Member
Yeah it's the list if stuff that Kratz was email blasting directly to people, also the line he's been feeding to a lot of outlets. Shame two see this stuff has seen such wide, unchecked, dissemination.
For some clarity on this stuff I'd recommend going through the MaM reddit. There's a ton of great resources to look through there and just recently all the Avery Trial transcripts have become available and its brought a lot of new interesting info to light.
These threads serve as a good primer to begin with though (as far as debunking the Kratz nonsense):
1. Point-by-Point rebuttal to "Missing Evidence"
2. Pro-DEFENSE information that was left out of MaM
3. Dean Strang: The State never explained the "small spatters of blood around [Steven Averys blood vial], which would have come from extracting a syringe from the vial.
After that if you're still curious about more details here's a google doc with all the most pertinent info from the sub well organized.
Thanks. Will look through it when I get some time. I also want to watch the two videos posted above.
fluffydelusions
Member
Just finished this up. Depressing stuff
Crazy how they are able to detect these tiny splatters around the vial, but nothing at all in Avery's bedroom or garage where a supposed sweaty slaughter took place.
It really is.
What I worry about, besides the justice system, are ALL the other cases that have been handled by Kratz before and after this one. They should've been looked into as well.
the trial was a complete joke, the boy was obviously manipulated, things were 'not seen' and then 'ohhh, look there! a bullet/key' etc etc etc
all that would make it already disgusting, buutttt...
the prosecutor says, with all words in Avery's case 'this is a one man job, he did it all entirely alone', got the conviction. ok.
then, after few weeks, the same prosecutor comes to the same room and in another trial says the kid helped everything. everything.
It clearly says 'im here to convict you, doesnt matter what story i will have to tell, I will just make it stick, and next week i will do the same with the other poor bastard'.
all that would make it already disgusting, buutttt...
the prosecutor says, with all words in Avery's case 'this is a one man job, he did it all entirely alone', got the conviction. ok.
then, after few weeks, the same prosecutor comes to the same room and in another trial says the kid helped everything. everything.
It clearly says 'im here to convict you, doesnt matter what story i will have to tell, I will just make it stick, and next week i will do the same with the other poor bastard'.
Just finished the series. Both of them got fucked over hard. One of the more chilling moments was when the officer called in about the missing Toyota days before it was found and proceeds to fucking lie in the courtroom about it despite the lawyer playing the tape again.
Some sketchy shit going on.
Some sketchy shit going on.
even if you buy into the 'evidence' left out of the doc, or more narrowly the evidence left out of the doc that was actually admitted into court -- the doc isn't about avery. It's about the justice system and the fact that it was going to find him guilty come hell or high water, and I think they did a good job of proving that. In fact, that was the argument the defense put forth -- that the police truly believe avery is guilty
RustyNails
Member
I really don't understand why people come in here and say 'lol yea dude's guilty as shit' and when asked to explain, they disappear...? I don't get it. Last page I responded to someone and asked to elaborate why, and then he disappears. Like, won't even answer simple straightforward questions. I'm not going to engage with these folks anymore. It's pointless.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Vacutainers do not have a visible hole in their top after routine blood draw.
fluffydelusions
Member
That bit was crazy. Also Steven was accused of committing the crime in the garage while Brendan in the trailer...like what.
I feel you. Drive by posting. I think we responded to the same guy...
I saw this on Reddit. It's great. The thing that stands out the most too me is Scott tadych's interviews and testimony. About as inconsistent as you can get.
CBC's This Hour Has 22 Minutes sketch: https://youtu.be/bAhucqqUxv0
tattooed_dwarf
Member
I would love to know what those members of jury think after seeing this documentary. So much shady stuff happened during whole investigation and both trials that I'm just baffled how both got convicted.
Audioboxer
Member
Found this quite interesting
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3746969...iller-and-he-might-have-been-seen-in-the-show
http://moviepilot.com/posts/3746969...iller-and-he-might-have-been-seen-in-the-show
Fried Food
Banned
Obviously not guilty.
The Fronde
Member
Would things have turned out differently had that juror not left for personal reasons? The guy clearly thought Avery was innocent. Even showed up to Brendan's trial (can see him in background). Just another weird part of the whole thing.
zeioIIDX
Member
Exactly. I was a lab tech for 5 years so the moment I saw them getting excited about that hole in the Vacutainer tube, I was like "Are they serious?" But yeah, it did throw me off a bit because of the seal that was tampered with.
Regarding the murder: No idea:
Regarding the actual case in court: more than enough reasonable doubt.
Seems there was a lot of planted/tampered evidence.
The key. The bullet. The blood and lack of blood/DNA in certain places. Bones scattered in different places. Lieutenant Lenk not signing the log book when the vehicle was found. The case should've been a mistrial and it all should've been Manitowoc fault as they were told to stay away from the case.
The coerced confession of Dassey.
The only thing that really is fishy to me is the *67 phone calls, and the last phone call which was 10 minutes before her phone was destroyed.
The key. The bullet. The blood and lack of blood/DNA in certain places. Bones scattered in different places. Lieutenant Lenk not signing the log book when the vehicle was found. The case should've been a mistrial and it all should've been Manitowoc fault as they were told to stay away from the case.
The coerced confession of Dassey.
The only thing that really is fishy to me is the *67 phone calls, and the last phone call which was 10 minutes before her phone was destroyed.
hey_monkey
Banned
Yeah, the tape and seals and all, combined with what folks said about the evidence, that seemed very fishy to me. The vial itself, meh.
Nappuccino
Member
Do they usually puncture blood sample vials of otherwise sealed evidence? I would guess no one is worried about taking the samples and planting them, but generally speaking, a perfectly sealed vial would lead to way less questions down the road. I would think standard practice should demand a new cap with each new draw.
D1renegade
Member
Just finished episode 8....
So depressing and infuriating.
Just wow..
Reasonable doubt, not even once
So depressing and infuriating.
Just wow..
What cracks me up is that people handwave away the blood vial like it's nothing. "That's not proof someone took the blood."
Well what else was in the box? Nothing! Just the blood. And the box was tampered with for a reason to get to the one thing in the box-the blood. Are we supposed to believe someone broke the tamper seal, looked at the blood vial and said "Nevermind."?
If you acknowledge that the tampering was legitimate, then you have to acknowledge the reason for doing so only had one purpose-to extract that blood.
Lynd7
Member
I've got a couple of eps left. But yeah, how are things like the cop knowing the car model/year etc being ignored. That seems highly suspicious, along with the other bits and pieces that seem sketchy.
If they couldn't find evidence of blood at the supposed scene, why are they still assuming it took place there?
If they couldn't find evidence of blood at the supposed scene, why are they still assuming it took place there?
hey_monkey
Banned
RIGHT? So yeah, maybe the liquid blood wasn't a big deal, nor the hole, but what possible reason was there to tamper with the box that only contained a blood vial?
Wait what? How do they know when the phone was destroyed?
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
They didn't just say "nevermind", either. They would have had to punctured the top of the test tube with a needle, and THEN said "nevermind", which doesn't even seem possible to do. Have the police ever went on record with a statement about that catastrophic breach of their evidence?
Lynd7
Member
Finished it now.
As everyone is saying, the holes in the evidence etc just cast too much doubt. If he really is innocent, I hope it can be proven outright like the last time.
If there were people planting evidence, why wouldn't they splatter the garage with some blood too? Maybe was too hard?
No physical evidence of blood or DNA at any of the scenes is really hard to believe.
As everyone is saying, the holes in the evidence etc just cast too much doubt. If he really is innocent, I hope it can be proven outright like the last time.
If there were people planting evidence, why wouldn't they splatter the garage with some blood too? Maybe was too hard?
No physical evidence of blood or DNA at any of the scenes is really hard to believe.
There was no blood from Theresa because her body was burned. Therefore there would be no blood to use as planted evidence.
NullPointer
Member
This right here. Innocence or the murder is far from obvious, but the investigation was an utter disaster, and criminal in its own right.
Well
he wasn't convicted of mutilating the body, so apparently the jury thought there was enough reasonable doubt for just that somehow.
His blood was taken a year before it was actually used to exonerate him so the puncture probably came from the technician taking it for that test.
It is bizarre that there was seemingly no comment on how the seal was not only broken but taped up after the fact but the entire thing seemed like a cluster fuck. There was a part where they were talking the person in charge of evidence area and that place looked like a mess.
phone records show when her phone turned off (or was destroyed)
figadapaura
Member
Try not to read it in his voice.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
Nappuccino
Member
What a massive dick hole.Try not to read it in his voice.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
schlongdog
Banned
As someone who doesn't understand the specifics of the American system, what exactly can Kathleen Zellner hope to achieve?
Is a new trial possible now?
An appeal?
Is a new trial possible now?
An appeal?
Applesauce
Boom! Bitch-slapped!
Try not to read it in his voice.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
Fuck that guy. Fuck him into outer space.
hey_monkey
Banned
Try not to read it in his voice.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
"LISTEN, If I can't exploit you for a book that will make me famous that I can option for film rights, you can fuck right off. I mean what, you think I am interested in you as a human?"
Audioboxer
Member
Try not to read it in his voice.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
Yup, glad Zellner made this public. What a douchebag. Love how he says you had one chance and then finishes with contact me if you change your mind.
apparently there's new evidence, and they're going to ask for a new trial.
Try not to read it in his voice.
I really thought I couldn't possibly think any less of him, but there it is. Now I'm curious what other letters he sent. What's it to him if Steven confesses or not? He's already in jail. Sounds like he knows more than he lets on.
Kathleen Zellner is gonna have his on a pike.
This... is so bizarre.
What exactly does he have in mind? Does he want to actually write said book, is that the plan?
That seems to be exactly it, yes. And it sounds like he's been asking for Avery's "honest story" for some time now.
Zomba13
Member
He wants to be able to write a book then get it made into a movie then get super rich.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
WRONG THREAD
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