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[Tak3n]

What's the general consensus here on gaf? Guilty or not?

The reality is no one knows, he could be, but what is obvious that the trial was a farce, from allowing the blood results to the key mysteriously appearing, to the prosecutor releasing all the details of the young boys confession to the media before the trial started, then in the trial not using that and dropping all associated charges to do with said confession (that right there is a mis-trial) The Judge blocking any attempts from the defence to show reasonable doubt...

It was made plainly clear by the Judge et al that he was going in guilty and had to be proved innocent..

so he could be guilty, but he should get a new trial, However Lenk is now poorly so wont be able to be cross examined so that hurts the defence

 

[Tak3n]

ineffective counsel as in the two lawyers featured in the documentary? Or does this something else--those two were pretty amazing. I'm not well-versed in legalese.

you basically use anything that gets you back in front of a Judge, it is nothing personal

 

[Tak3n]

has then been posted

http://jezebel.com/making-a-murderer-da-ken-kratz-recalls-his-life-as-a-di-1753857399

I dont understand why the interviewer is being so woolly and weird and being playful.... he is now a defence attorney, but the biggest thing he says was missing was the show not showing that they had a statement from the nurse who put the whole in the tube of blood

 

[hey_monkey]

I think it's fair to say "these people are suspicious and should have been investigated further" which is what (I hope) people really mean when they say "I think x did it."

But I definitely understand and appreciate your concern. Not everyone will read between the lines. Not everyone means between the lines.

Oh, I think we're in the same page. I just think there's a difference, even if just semantic, between saying one wishes they'd investigated the hell out of the ex boyfriend or Scott and saying "I think Scott did it." Because we just don't know. We can't know. It's frustrating that we can't, too. This whole thing makes me so angry. I'm angry every time I think about it. It makes me feel so helpless and hopeless to know this happens to people, and it damn sure isn't limited to this case.

 

[Kill3r7]

has then been posted

http://jezebel.com/making-a-murderer-da-ken-kratz-recalls-his-life-as-a-di-1753857399

I dont understand why the interviewer is being so woolly and weird and being playful.... he is now a defence attorney, but the biggest thing he says was missing was the show not showing that they had a statement from the nurse who put the whole in the tube of blood

The hole in the blood vial (vacutainer) was a red herring anyway. Anyone who has had a blood test (blood drawn) in the last 40-50 years knows how the hole got there.

 

[Audioboxer]

A lot of the court documents have been getting posted and checked out over on reddits MakingAMurder subreddit.

 

[pooptest]

has then been posted

http://jezebel.com/making-a-murderer-da-ken-kratz-recalls-his-life-as-a-di-1753857399

I dont understand why the interviewer is being so woolly and weird and being playful.... he is now a defence attorney, but the biggest thing he says was missing was the show not showing that they had a statement from the nurse who put the whole in the tube of blood

Ya, this has been known. However, someone was also saying you could've just used the same hole to extract blood out.
And why was the seal broken again? I don't recall that being answered. And if there was a reason for it, why not seal it back up with more red tape instead of scotch tape? That looked so tacky and shady.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

The hole in the blood vial (vacutainer) was a red herring anyway. Anyone who has had a blood test (blood drawn) in the last 40-50 years knows how the hole got there.

And the hole isn't the significant thing. The obviously tampered-with seals on the box are the issue.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

There was also blood on the outside of the Styrofoam case suggesting someone may have recently extracted it that the prosecution never adequately explained.

Oh, I think we're in the same page. I just think there's a difference, even if just semantic, between saying one wishes they'd investigated the hell out of the ex boyfriend or Scott and saying "I think Scott did it." Because we just don't know. We can't know. It's frustrating that we can't, too. This whole thing makes me so angry. I'm angry every time I think about it. It makes me feel so helpless and hopeless to know this happens to people, and it damn sure isn't limited to this case.

Very true one of the most frustrating things about this case.

 

[poppabk]

What is up with that ex boyfriend and brother looking crazy shady when asked about the lot? Looking to each other for answers, stuttering? I mean, is this real life?

It could just be that they were nervous of saying anything that would jeopardize the evidence.

 

[Omnistalgic]

It could just be that they were nervous of saying anything that would jeopardize the evidence.

Why would anyone be nervous from that if they weren't hiding something? That's illogical to me. Hey maybe it's just the captured footage, but the brother just doesn't look genuine in his statements throughout the documentary tbh.

This thing is making me lose faith in humanity...not sure I even want to finish it. And I have no idea if Avery is guilty or innocent. Just the left handed stuff that's happened is pretty bizarre and appalling.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Why would anyone be nervous from that if they weren't hiding something? That's illogical to me. Hey maybe it's just the captured footage, but the brother just doesn't look genuine in his statements throughout the documentary tbh.

Some people are really really bad (terrified of) at public speaking, you can't infer.

 

[Saya]

I'm watching a series called Rectify and the similarities with Making a Murderer are strangely close at times. I wonder if the actual case inspired the series. Highly recommended watching.

 

[maximum360]

The reality is no one knows, he could be, but what is obvious that the trial was a farce, from allowing the blood results to the key mysteriously appearing, to the prosecutor releasing all the details of the young boys confession to the media before the trial started, then in the trial not using that and dropping all associated charges to do with said confession (that right there is a mis-trial) The Judge blocking any attempts from the defence to show reasonable doubt...

It was made plainly clear by the Judge et al that he was going in guilty and had to be proved innocent..

so he could be guilty, but he should get a new trial, However Lenk is now poorly so wont be able to be cross examined so that hurts the defence

Yeah. Even the judges words at the end of the trial was arguing that Steven guilty, committed the crime and was a danger to society [most dangerous ever in that city] and as a result would get no parole option instead of saying you've been found guilty by your peers and as a result I'm bound to this sentencing.

 

[LSauchelli]

I'm watching a series called Rectify and the similarities with Making a Murderer are strangely close at times. I wonder if the actual case inspired the series. Highly recommended watching.

It's very possible Rectiy used Avery's case as an inspiration, considering it was an infamous case and he was exonerated in 2003 and arrested again in 2005, years before Rectify 2013's debut.

Edit:
Or maybe not, https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-inspiration-behind-the-TV-series-Rectify

 

[Arkeband]

I dunno if this has been posted, but there's a (maybe?) plausible alternative to Avery.

http://www.someecards.com/entertain...hinks-teresa-halbach-killed-by-serial-killer/

Would be interesting, though he seems too overweight/old to be chopping up bodies, moving barrels, etc.

 

[RiderKairuu]

I dunno if this has been posted, but there's a (maybe?) plausible alternative to Avery.

http://www.someecards.com/entertain...hinks-teresa-halbach-killed-by-serial-killer/

Would be interesting, though he seems too overweight/old to be chopping up bodies, moving barrels, etc.

There's a YouTube video posted a few pages back that discusses this theory. Sites are picking up on it and articles are showing up.

 

[GorillaJu]

Read that stuff about the potential serial killer stuff. The most important information to come out of this is that framing does actually happen, not just from the police but from real murderers.

 

[yyzjohn]

I dunno if this has been posted, but there's a (maybe?) plausible alternative to Avery.

http://www.someecards.com/entertain...hinks-teresa-halbach-killed-by-serial-killer/

Would be interesting, though he seems too overweight/old to be chopping up bodies, moving barrels, etc.

Damn, that guy in the picture with Kratz sure looks like him...

 

[Spades]

What's the general consensus here on gaf? Guilty or not?

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

 

[gamz]

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

How are you so sure? I honestly have no idea at this point.

 

[Arkeband]

Damn, that guy in the picture with Kratz sure looks like him...

I want to believe, but it could just be a fat guy lost in the hallway. He doesn't have a distinct look, and by that picture of him showing up at a kid's funeral dressed like Hawaiian Santa, it seems like he tries to keep it that way.

I feel like if he used dynamite to destroy the body, which explains how destroyed it was, that would be fairly easy to deduce.

 

[Spades]

How are you so sure? I honestly have no idea at this point.

Just made up my mind after reading the other side of the story after watching the series.

 

[j_rocca42]

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

Just made up my mind after reading the other side of the story after watching the series.

Manipulated or planted? It's fine that you think he's guilty after seeing all the evidence (I'm not sure he's guilty). I do, however, feel that gross misconduct/illegal activities by the police cannot go unpunished. If the police have to plant evidence/frame a guilty man then he should go free IMO.

 

[RustyNails]

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

Questions for you then, removing manipulated evidence from the story:

1) Where's Teresa's blood in Avery Bedroom/Trailer/Garage

2) Where are Avery's fingerprints on or inside Rav4: latch, hood, wheel, etc

3) If Avery was bleeding, again why isn't his fingerprints found with blood. If he was wearing gloves, how did blood get on the vehicle.

4) If Brendan is also guilty, you are going against Avery verdict. The judge, as biased and/or inept as he was, threw out the entire Brendan story. How do you square that with your Avery guilty conviction?

 

[gamz]

Just made up my mind after reading the other side of the story after watching the series.

I read and researched all of that and I'm still not sure? It's like a never ending loop that nothing really makes much sense. There way too many questions and missing information to really make up my mind either way.

Just curious what makes you so sure?

 

[gamz]

Questions for you then, removing manipulated evidence from the story:

1) Where's Teresa's blood in Avery Bedroom/Trailer/Garage

2) Where are Avery's fingerprints on or inside Rav4: latch, hood, wheel, etc

3) If Avery was bleeding, again why isn't his fingerprints found with blood. If he was wearing gloves, how did blood get on the vehicle.

4) If Brendan is also guilty, you are going against Avery verdict. The judge, as biased and/or inept as he was, threw out the entire Brendan story. How do you square that with your Avery guilty conviction?

And why was some of her bones found at that Rock Quarry?

 

[Future]

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

After watching I felt there was so much reasonable doubt I wondered if it was possible for anyone to have this opinion. I guess you could

Lack of evidence and motive is what's killing me. In Brendon's case, there literally is no evidence except for what some below average intelligence kid said to police. I don't believe Avery or Brendon is actually skilled enough to wipe a crime scene clean.

Why would Avery have left the car there and not crushed it? He went through the effort of burning the body. He had the key to the truck. Why not just drive it into the crusher and destroy it?

How could his horrific rape happened with literally no physical evidence anywhere? How could there be no dna from the woman on her own key? Why would Avery even do this? Brendon himself was framed as a sexual deviant that wanted to know what it was like to have sex as motive..... Where is the evidence that points to that attitude? Why would Avery have brought him there to have sex with the woman?

Argh too many damn questions

 

[Applesauce]

I don't understand how anyone can come to a conclusion one way or the other, guilty or innocent, the whole point of the series is that a man and a kid were locked away for life despite the cases against them being saturated with reasonable doubt and a highly questionable investigation.

 

[Future]

I don't understand how anyone can come to a conclusion one way or the other, guilty or innocent, the whole point of the series is that a man and a kid were locked away for life despite the cases against them being saturated with reasonable doubt and a highly questionable investigation.

And the whole point of the justice system is that if you can't come to a conclusion, then there is reasonable doubt and you should be found innocent.

Before this trial, I know I actually never considered how hard it could be to get justice in a small town. Where police, jury peers from the same town, judges, etc are already aware of your family in detail and may have passed some kind of judgement based on cursory knowledge before seeing evidence. Pretty sad actually

 

[pringles]

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

Really interested in how someone could think Brendan is guilty.

 

[Apathy]

I don't understand how anyone can come to a conclusion one way or the other, guilty or innocent, the whole point of the series is that a man and a kid were locked away for life despite the cases against them being saturated with reasonable doubt and a highly questionable investigation.

Our whole justice system revolves around a person being presumed innocent in a court of law and the prosecutions job is to paint a scenario that shows why the defendant is guilty with supporting evidence. If they fail to do that then there is don't doubt his guilt and has to be innocent. This whole case never played out how the prosecution said it did because it's lacking evidence to support their hypothesis. By that standard alone these two people are innocent of the crime they are being charged for, yet they got railroaded in a farcical case.

 

[lamaroo]

I'm watching a series called Rectify and the similarities with Making a Murderer are strangely close at times. I wonder if the actual case inspired the series. Highly recommended watching.

Ray Mckinnon researched a bunch of cases, but I think he may have only looked into cases where people were specifically on death row. Give this a read, it's written by a guy who spent 18 years on death row, and how good Rectify is at capturing the feeling.

 

[RustyNails]

And why was some of her bones found at that Rock Quarry?

I removed all the manipulated evidence from my post. If you think Avery and Brendan are guilty despite planted or manipulated evidence, I'd like to know how.

 

[gamz]

I removed all the manipulated evidence from my post. If you think Avery and Brendan are guilty despite planted or manipulated evidence, I'd like to know how.

I think you are quoting the wrong person. I don't think they are guilty based on what we know.

 

[Always-honest]

has then been posted

http://jezebel.com/making-a-murderer-da-ken-kratz-recalls-his-life-as-a-di-1753857399

I dont understand why the interviewer is being so woolly and weird and being playful.... he is now a defence attorney, but the biggest thing he says was missing was the show not showing that they had a statement from the nurse who put the whole in the tube of blood

What the fuck kind of interview is that?

 

[RustyNails]

I think you are quoting the wrong person. I don't think they are guilty based on what we know.

Oh my bad. I didn't want to direct it to you, I apologize...I'm saying in general if someone (spades) thinks they are guilty even if we exclude planted evidence, I wanna know how. Because state's entire case rests on the planted evidence: magic key and magic bullet.

 

[Apathy]

Oh my bad. I didn't want to direct it to you, I apologize...I'm saying in general if someone (spades) thinks they are guilty even if we exclude planted evidence, I wanna know how. Because state's entire case rests on the planted evidence: magic key and magic bullet.

Magic single valet key with no DNA or fingerprints on it.

 

[Arkeband]

What the fuck kind of interview is that?

A hilarious one.

"So you're a cancer..."

"Stop."

Both Ken and the girl know buttons are being pushed, he's not an idiot, just a self-admitted dick.

 

[Chaplain]

Two episodes of Crime Time that are about Making a Murder:

Making A Murderer: Conspiracy, Evidence Collection & Prosecutor Ethics (1/14/16)

In this episode of Crime Time our expert panel (retired FBI S.S.A. Jim Clemente, neuroscientist Dr. James Fallon and former prosecutor Francey Hakes) debate conspiracy theories, the evidence, the jury pool and discuss whether or not the successful conviction of Steven Avery was the result of a conspiracy between the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s department or simply a case of judicial mistakes in this impassioned Crime Time hosted by Allison Hope Weiner.

Making A Murderer: Motive, Misconduct & Nancy Grace (1/12/16)

Defense attorney Mike Cavalluzzi examines the evidence presented in the film, the legality behind Brendan Dassey’s confession and motivating factors behind conspiracy theories. We also discuss Nancy Grace’s comments on the film as well as her past history of prosecutorial misconduct in this Crime Time hosted by Allison Hope Weiner.

I listened to both episodes (I watched my wife play a game while listening to each episode). I enjoyed hearing experts look at the documentary and give their expert opinions on both cases. Diffidently worth a watch/listen.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

After watching it all and reading a lot about it after, I'm pretty certain that both Steven and Branden are both guilty. I do, however, also think that lots of the evidence was manipulated by the police to ensure that they went down.

I don't know how anyone could even remotely come to this conclusion. The most aggressive stance any logical person can take is "I don't know."

 

[msdstc]

has then been posted

http://jezebel.com/making-a-murderer-da-ken-kratz-recalls-his-life-as-a-di-1753857399

I dont understand why the interviewer is being so woolly and weird and being playful.... he is now a defence attorney, but the biggest thing he says was missing was the show not showing that they had a statement from the nurse who put the whole in the tube of blood

The hole in the blood vial (vacutainer) was a red herring anyway. Anyone who has had a blood test (blood drawn) in the last 40-50 years knows how the hole got there.

The court documents are out there, it's not strange, its not convenient. This is one of the biggest pieces of evidence in the bias contained in the documentary. Nothing about that hole is even slightly suspicious given that's how the blood even gets in there.

The more concerning thing is the seal being broken and the state of the box.

 

[cyba89]

Just finished episode 9. Have lots of mixed feelings right now regarding the case and the documentary. Independently of if Steven and/or Brendan really did it I was quite upset about how the whole investigation went down (especially regarding Brendan). I will probably read some more stuff about all this the future.

I felt the documentary was too voyeuristic at some points, for example during some very personal phone conversations between Steven and his mother. I kinda felt terrible for hearing this stuff 'for entertaiment'.

 

[gamz]

Two episodes of Crime Time that are about Making a Murder:

Making A Murderer: Conspiracy, Evidence Collection & Prosecutor Ethics (1/14/16)



Making A Murderer: Motive, Misconduct & Nancy Grace (1/12/16)



I listened to both episodes (I watched my wife play a game while listening to each episode). I enjoyed hearing experts look at the documentary and give their expert opinions on both cases. Diffidently worth a watch/listen.

Thanks man! Awesome stuff.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

After watching this series, I think it is all the more important to not form an opinion regarding facts, and guilt or innocence unless it has been properly established in court. I can't say whether Steven or Branden are guilty. I do know that they had the deck stacked against them in court and they didn't have a fair trial. Beyond that, I really don't care to speculate.

 

[Cudder]

Just finished episode 6 last night. It was all well and interesting in the beginning, but when the court case starts is when shit got real for me. It's pretty riveting to see the prosecution and defense go at it.

 

[ryan299]

Having finished it now, there's so many holes in a lot of the State's evidence. I then read of all the evidence left out of the doc and I'm not so sure. There's just some weird, sketchy shit that went on.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Having finished it now, there's so many holes in a lot of the State's evidence. I then read of all the evidence left out of the doc and I'm not so sure. There's just some weird, sketchy shit that went on.

What evidence have you read about being left out? Just to let you know a lot of the stuff floating around online is misinformation from the prosecution on the case.

 

[gamz]

Having finished it now, there's so many holes in a lot of the State's evidence. I then read of all the evidence left out of the doc and I'm not so sure. There's just some weird, sketchy shit that went on.

What was left out? Besides the crap spewed by kratz

 

[Audioboxer]

Website that keeps getting updated with the case files - http://www.stevenaverycase.org/

Worthwhile following his new lawyers twitter as well - https://twitter.com/zellnerlaw

Who is she?

Zellner specializes in overturning wrongful convictions: According to her firm's official website, "In 20 years, Kathleen T. Zellner has righted more wrongful convictions than any private attorney in America ... No private attorney in the United States has successfully fought for the release of more wrongfully convicted individuals."

http://news.yahoo.com/steven-averys-attorney-kathleen-zellner-154300893.html