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[Megalosaro]

Too late. There were 23 Americans aboard that flight.

Its only a matter of what exact shape and proportion that involvement will take.

Collateral damage. It's an unfortunate accident of war, isn't it?

Would you be in favor of Pakistan or issueing attacks against the US whenever a US drone shoots up a wedding? Cause that happens pretty often yet there are no reprisals.

 

[Felix Lighter]

We can only hope that this event is the wake up call to put this conflict to an end. Open war of the magnitude this could lead to is beyond what I can comprehend. It truly is terrifying.

 

[Acorn]

It's time Britain and America stepped in.

This is a crime against humanity and those involved must pay for what they have done.

It's fucked up beyond belief.

Okay you enlist first, I'll be right behind you.

 

[daxy]

They started this shit, I mean DNR LNR and assist them.

By that leap of logic the US is to blame for ISIS casualties in Iraq.

I think it's best to wait until more is known before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

A US "team" is currently en route to Ukraine per Fox News

Hope they will not be caught and prisoned in DNR as USA spies.

By that leap of logic the US is to blame for ISIS casualties in Iraq.

I don't know history behind ISIS so I can't answer on this question. But I know, that this shit is sponsored and created by Russia. They started from Crimea and want land part to it, as those fuckers too stupid to build bridge without foreign companies and without bridge and Ukraine, Crimea will die out.

P.S. I am from Crimea.

 

[gofreak]

The fact that Russian media and seemingly their government is trying to say Ukraine did it and not rebels for either side makes me think this won't really end well.

My sister-in-law is just back from Moscow, and she says the media there is basically on full blast about the Ukranian situation, it still tops the headlines there while it fell off the radar a bit here in the west. And it's basically presented as a Russian war against Ukraine.

So of course they would try to pin this on Ukraine.

 

[Zyae]

actually, I don't.

Spoiler

you do realize you are not directly affected by this tragedy, right... I'd argue your Joke about your uncle being on the plane is truly a fucked up thing to say.

go be a pedantic basement dweller in another thread

 

[Mohonky]

Why do they support these fucking terrorists?

Lets be fair here, the US has been supporting terrorists groups for decades for their own agenda and gone entirely unpunished for it except for the backlash from terrorists groups. Thats before even getting into the number of invasions by US forces and countless civilian deaths that are still going on as a result of it.

 

[Acorn]

By that leap of logic the US is to blame for ISIS casualties in Iraq.

And the taliban, Pinochet etc etc

 

[JCizzle]

What I would like to know is: Did airlines know about that cargo plane that got shot down this week? If so, wouldn't it be kind of risky to still use that route even if you know that airplanes get shot down by the rebels. Just saying, I don't want to judge anybody for that. Just what I would do if I would have known about that cargo airplane.

Risky, yes. However, they're likely flying at such different altitudes that it should be impossible to confuse the two.

 

[sangreal]

NTSB?

Boeing?

oh wait fox news

they were talking about some team working for Biden

 

[NullPointer]

Collateral damage. It's an unfortunate accident of war, isn't it?

Would you be in favor of Pakistan or issueing attacks against the US whenever a US drone shoots up a wedding? Cause that happens pretty often yet there are no reprisals.

I believe in accountability, and yes, that accountability also extends to US actions, especially our drone program.

And there are always reprisals, just not always made public and not always hitting the targets you'd expect.

 

[jts]

How exactly is Russia to blame again?

Sorry, I really don't feel like engaging in an argument over the internet... I'm just way too shocked by what happened and expressed my feelings on it.

My heart goes out to all the poor families caught in this :'(

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Lets be fair here, the US has been supporting terrorists groups for decades for their own agenda and gone entirely unpunished for it except for the backlash from terrorists groups. Thats before even getting into the number of invasions by US forces and countless civilian deaths that are still going on as a result of it.

So it's ok for anybody to do that now?

 

[KingSnake]

How exactly is Russia to blame again?

Providing guns and military support for idiots with the unique scope of creating chaos from which Russia to gain tactical advantages (and/or territories).

 

[Kinan]

It is simple, really. If it was Buk, with its ~25 km operational range, only separatists could do it. Ukraine forces are to far from the impact point and so are Russians.
And it is quite clear that Ukraine didnt use any anti air missiles during the conflict at all due to the simple fact that "rebels" do not have planes. It is also clear that rebels downed several Ukrainian planes in the last weeks, some of them at >6000m. They bragged about it extensivly. If they now claim they do not have means for altitudes above 3km, it means all those ukrainian planes were downed by russian army.

Even Lifenews and Russia Today are gonna have a hard time to create an explanation for all this mess.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

It is simple, really. If it was Buk, with its ~25 km operational range, only separatists could do it. Ukraine forces are to far from the impact point and so are Russians.
And it is quite clear that Ukraine didnt use any anti air missiles during the conflict at all due to the simple fact that "rebels" do not have planes. It is also clear that rebels downed several Ukrainian planes in the last weeks, some of them at >6000m. They bragged about it extensivly. If they now claim they do not have means for altitudes above 3km, it means all those ukrainian planes were downed by russian army.

Even Lifenews and Russia Today are gonna have a hard time to create an explanation for all this mess.

agree completely.

Collateral damage. It's an unfortunate accident of war, isn't it?

Would you be in favor of Pakistan or issueing attacks against the US whenever a US drone shoots up a wedding? Cause that happens pretty often yet there are no reprisals.

The moral relativism in this thread continues to be disgusting.

"oh _____ happened ______ (sometime in the past) and it was perpetrated by ________ (fill in Western nation), therefore this incident can/should be swept under the rug."

Fuck outta my face with that shit. Do better, GAFers.

 

[kabel]

Lets be fair here, the US has been supporting terrorists groups for decades for their own agenda and gone entirely unpunished for it except for the backlash from terrorists groups. Thats before even getting into the number of invasions by US forces and countless civilian deaths that are still going on as a result of it.

so its ok then?

because 'murica did that too.

 

[sangreal]

What I would like to know is: Did airlines know about that cargo plane that got shot down this week? If so, wouldn't it be kind of risky to still use that route even if you know that airplanes get shot down by the rebels. Just saying, I don't want to judge anybody for that. Just what I would do if I would have known about that cargo airplane.

Yeah. I posted this earlier in the thread, but some random guy made a blog post after that going on about how stupid it is for civilian airlines to be flying there: http://jeziorki.blogspot.com/2014/07/high-over-eastern-ukraine.html

 

[Althane]

Lets be fair here, the US has been supporting terrorists groups for decades for their own agenda and gone entirely unpunished for it except for the backlash from terrorists groups. Thats before even getting into the number of invasions by US forces and countless civilian deaths that are still going on as a result of it.

Not sure "Tu Quoque" is the approach that needs to be used. Just because the US doesn't make it alright for Russia to do it, or excuse it.

 

[Megalosaro]

I believe in accountability. And there are always reprisals, just not always made public and not always hitting the targets you'd expect.

Then punish the specific people on the ground that issued the attack. Dictating foreign policy over what is essentially a tragic accident is not the way to go.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

So it's ok for anybody to do that now?

It really is the last ditch effort by people who seem to think the US is the cause of all evil. Whenever some other entity does something bad they run on over to wikipedia and find an instance where the US did something similar and wave it around.

 

[Topsu]

It's so bizarre to me how hard it is to confirm this. Airline should have instant access to info on who boarded

This whole thing is a bizarre. How is it possible to shoot down a passenger plane in the middle of the geo-political hotspot that is east Ukraine, and not immediately get caught by the western observers in Ukraine, a civilian or anyone? I'm sure there must be many civilians who saw the missile launched by the pro-russians, who heard the news of MH17, and who can count 1+1. But still, nothing is known for certain.

 

[Acorn]

Providing guns and military support for idiots with the unique scope of creating chaos from which Russia to profit tactically.

You mean like arming the syrian rebels? Or Taliban?

Welcome to proxy wars the us, russia and UK amongst others have plenty of blood on their hands.

 

[Jme]

Your concern is normal. However, the Ukrainians would have the tech to intercept such communication. And they probably want to get as much evidence out there so they can show the world this conflict has gone on for too long and needs to end now.

I don't doubt their ability to obtain this - I just question it's authenticity. I'm obviously not familiar with the countries and groups involved, so its not like I can say "yup that's definitely his voice"

But, as far as motivation goes to upload something so quickly, you've got a good point. In America we'd probably never release evidence like this though. And certainly not this quickly - so,for me, its odd.

 

[freenudemacusers]

time to unsub, we're at the stage of the thread where weird concern trolling overrides anything else.

 

[NH Apache]

If feel like all the crazy is showing on the page.


From the ad.nl link to people defending Russia.

There is enough evidence already to say that it was a surface to air middle shot from either separatists or Russia proper.

Missiles were made in Russia.

The above statements are pretty much accepted truths at this point.

 

[Serra]

Providing guns and military support for idiots with the unique scope of creating chaos from which Russia to gain tactical advantages (and/or territories).

Like others have said over and over again to people spouting comments like yours: how does this differ from what the US has done over decades in the middle east or central/south america?

The moral relativism in this thread continues to be disgusting.

"oh _____ happened ______ (sometime in the past) and it was perpetrated by ________ (fill in Western nation), therefore this incident can/should be swept under the rug."

Fuck outta my face with that shit. Do better, GAFers.

No, it should not be swept under the rug. Russia should definitely face sanctions. But when the US did the exact same shit in multiple countries over decades, im guessing you didn't say shit and "swept it under the rug".

 

[Moz La Punk]

To people saying we're not directly influenced by this: WHAT THE FUCK??! Not only are there numerous people on my facebook that had friends on that plane, it is also a big fuck you to our freedom to travel the world. Ita basically a fuck you to the lives of every free human being in the world.

 

[TrueGrime]

Reminds me of Korean Airlines Flight 007 that was shot down in 1983 by the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union initially denied knowledge of the incident, but later admitted the shootdown, claiming that the aircraft was on a spy mission.

 

[Megalosaro]

agree completely.



The moral relativism in this thread continues to be disgusting.

"oh _____ happened ______ (sometime in the past) and it was perpetrated by ________ (fill in Western nation), therefore this incident can/should be swept under the rug."

Fuck outta my face with that shit. Do better, GAFers.

Your moral relativism is no better. Your logic is terrifying because it basically means the US is allowed to "accidentally" kill foreign people, yet foreign people aren't allowed to "accidentally" kill Americans? You can't have it both ways.

Either everyone is punished when something happens or no one should be. Just because your "enemy" (and trust me, Russia isn't and shouldn't be your enemy) did something by accident doesn't mean you should have fake outrage.

 

[sangreal]

CNN is also confirming that the US believes it has evidence it was shot down

 

[Locke Lamora]

source

Short summary:

Eyewitnesses report seeing a fighter jet before the explosion that fired some missles. There was a huge explosion and a couple of seconds later the wreckage came crashing down.

The separatist have acces missle systems but not acces to fighter jets.

Yeah, don't know about that. Everything happened at a altitude of 11 km (no matter if missile hit or -really unlikely- a jet fighter) which is really tough to spot. And a "huge explosion" in 11 km altitude, dunno.

 

[Mohonky]

So it's ok for anybody to do that now?

Didnt say it was, but you would be deluded to think the US has the moral high ground in any such instance.

Beside what do you want, America to enter another war? Glad some people think they have the resources and manpower to throw at it. Good luck with that one unless you really do want the war to end all wars.

 

[Veritigo_X]

So I guess now's the time when we post similar events in history to excuse this one? smh

 

[warthog]

Fuck whoever is to blame.

Rest in peace all that were aboard this plane. I hope they didn't stay conscious through whatever happened. What a tragic loss of life.

 

[Yamauchi]

Of course every side is going to deny it; the stakes are incredibly high. If Ukraine did it, the leadership will have lost an incredible amount of credibility and the war will drag on in the east. If the rebels did it with a captured SAM, it is a true existential crisis for them and their game will be up within weeks. If the rebels did it with a SAM supplied by Russia, it is still game over for them and Russia will be in deep doodoo. If Russia did it, they'll end up losing their little proxy war in Ukraine (which they are already losing) and face more severe sanctions from the EU.

So in my mind, any statements coming from either Kiev, the rebels, or the Kremlin are not to be trusted at the moment.

 

[Roland1979]

Not for those killed it does'nt. What about them?

mindblown.gif

Jesus Christ what's wrong with you? Are you heartless?

 

[MoeB]

Unfortunately they'll just get away with it by calling it a mistaken identity.

 

[antonz]

I want to point out. The Term "Rebel" is false. They are not Rebels. They are Kremlin backed Chechen and Russian soldiers. They proudly boast this fact on the ground and the leader of the entire thing is an FSB Major General.

This is Russia killing all these people not rebels

 

[superdeluxe]

Wouldn't FBI be involved? If this is a criminal act American nationals

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

It is simple, really. If it was Buk, with its ~25 km operational range, only separatists could do it. Ukraine forces are to far from the impact point and so are Russians.
And it is quite clear that Ukraine didnt use any anti air missiles during the conflict at all due to the simple fact that "rebels" do not have planes. It is also clear that rebels downed several Ukrainian planes in the last weeks, some of them at >6000m. They bragged about it extensivly. If they now claim they do not have means for altitudes above 3km, it means all those ukrainian planes were downed by russian army.

Even Lifenews and Russia Today are gonna have a hard time to create an explanation for all this mess.

RT already do this, they claimed that Ukrainian aircraft shut down air plain, mistaking him for a Russian spy plain.

 

[Yamauchi]

I want to point out. The Term "Rebel" is false. They are not Rebels. They are Kremlin backed Chechen and Russian soldiers. They proudly boast this fact on the ground and the leader of the entire thing is an FSB Major General.

This is Russia killing all these people not rebels

This is not true at all. There are thousands of DPR fighters that are citizens of Ukraine.

Ukraine has a very large ethnic Russian minority and nearly half the population speaks Russian, so to use the term 'Russian' means very little.

 

[Jme]

Fuck whoever is to blame.

Rest in peace all that were aboard this plane. I hope they didn't stay conscious through whatever happened. What a tragic loss of life.

At that altitude it was probably an immediate death with the implosion. They probably never saw this coming, if that can bring any solace.
Fucking tragic. Disgusting representation of everything wrong with war.

 

[KingSnake]

You mean like arming the syrian rebels? Or Taliban?

Welcome to proxy wars the us, russia and UK amongst others have plenty of blood on their hands.

Like others have said over and over again to people spouting comments like yours: how does this differ from what the US has done over decades in the middle east or central/south america?.

We go to this argument, really? 295 people unrelated with any war proxy or not died. 80 children it seems. And all you have to say is engaging in some pro and anti American shit?

Not that I did even say or think ever that this is ok when Americans are doing it, but proxy wars and providing guns usually bites in the ass the ones who do that one way or another. For this should pay Russia today (pun intended).

 

[sangreal]

welp, Biden confirms it was shot down

 

[Anth1888]

Foreign Sec of UK on Sky.

1. Britain want access to crash site
2. Does believe that there are British Nationals
3. No detailed info on British Nationals or numbers
4. UN is the right body to investiage - UK will aid
5. Calling on Hamas to end missiles/Irsael has the right to defend itself.

 

[ksan]

Then punish the specific people on the ground that issued the attack. Dictating foreign policy over what is essentially a tragic accident is not the way to go.

Is drunk driving a tragic accident in your mind as well?

 

[Mohonky]

I want to point out. The Term "Rebel" is false. They are not Rebels. They are Kremlin backed Chechen and Russian soldiers. They proudly boast this fact on the ground and the leader of the entire thing is an FSB Major General.

This is Russia killing all these people not rebels

So what your saying is, Russia ordered the takedown of a commercial airliner so that they could gain.........what? It was a fuck up. A horrible fuck up but a fuck up.

But people calling for swift and immediate retaliation? Thats going to get what everyone what exactly?

 

[ymmv]

It is simple, really. If it was Buk, with its ~25 km operational range, only separatists could do it. Ukraine forces are to far from the impact point and so are Russians.
And it is quite clear that Ukraine didnt use any anti air missiles during the conflict at all due to the simple fact that "rebels" do not have planes. It is also clear that rebels downed several Ukrainian planes in the last weeks, some of them at >6000m. They bragged about it extensivly. If they now claim they do not have means for altitudes above 3km, it means all those ukrainian planes were downed by russian army.

Even Lifenews and Russia Today are gonna have a hard time to create an explanation for all this mess.

No problem. Eye witnesses are now telling on Russian TV they saw airplanes shooting at the passenger airliner. The real target of the Ukranian army was actually Vladimir Putin whose personal airplane was flying over the area at the same time.