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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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Dreams-Visions

Member
Megalosaro said:
Your moral relativism is no better. Your logic is terrifying because it basically means the US is allowed to "accidentally" kill foreign people, yet foreign people aren't allowed to "accidentally" kill Americans? You can't have it both ways.

Either everyone is punished when something happens or no one should be. Just because your "enemy" (and trust me, Russia isn't and shouldn't be your enemy) did something by accident doesn't mean you should have fake outrage.
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Nobody but you and a couple of others are arguing moral relativism here. Either you need to re-read my posts or revisit your understanding of the definition. I'm simply responding to your rather shallow commentary by making it and its agenda a little more transparent.

Anyone doing wrong deserves punishment for such transgressions. When people or nations aren't held accountable (which happens, such is life), it doesn't make those incidents okay and it doesn't magically excuse anything that may happen in the future to said people/nations. That's a child's way of looking at things. It also should not somehow hamstring people/nations from taking whatever reasonable actions deemed appropriate to bring resolution to the situation if/when possible.

And it certainly shouldn't provide a platform for these sorts of ill-conceived arguments. _____ happened in the past therefore ________ should be excused as well just seems so embryonic.
 
M

Mxrz

Member
You don't just shoot down an airliner and then brag about it on social media. The world has to respond. Letting it go suddenly makes every passenger plane in the world a free target.

Its pretty disgusting to see people on gaf of all places try to downplay this or try to argue moral high ground. Hope you guys are pleased with yourself.
 
K

Kiever Sher

Member
Philip Hammond (Foreign Secretary) saying he believes that there were UK nationals on board. And man.. talk about a tough first few days on the job.
 
F

Frank_Lima

Neo Member
Bedameister said:
What I would like to know is: Did airlines know about that cargo plane that got shot down this week? If so, wouldn't it be kind of risky to still use that route even if you know that airplanes get shot down by the rebels. Just saying, I don't want to judge anybody for that. Just what I would do if I would have known about that cargo airplane.
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I agree.
 
S

sangreal

Member
NullPointer said:
Confirms what exactly?
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sorry, I fixed my post. He gave a speech saying it was shot down, not an accident. "blown out of the sky"

or more specifically, I meant that he confirmed that this is the US belief (I was following up on my previous post that cnn was reporting that based on an anonymous official)
 
S

Sayter

Member
Serra said:
Like others have said over and over again to people spouting comments like yours: how does this differ from what the US has done over decades in the middle east or central/south america?
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Can we please not discuss this here? You have every right to your opinion. I actually agree with what you're saying. But let's focus on the topic.
 
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antonz

Member
KIEV, Ukraine — As news broke of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 being downed in eastern Ukraine, the separatist’s shadowy commander with a pencil mustache issued a dark warning on social media.

Through his VK.com account, Russia’s version of Facebook, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Girkin — who goes by the nom de guerre Igor Strelkov — boasted about shooting down a plane.

"We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote.
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http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-russia-rebel/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link

Gemüsepizza;121488967 said:
It's Antonz, he has a very "special" view on this whole conflict.



That's what everyone was expecting.
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Bullshit. You guys are the russian shills. Every fucking day hundreds if not thousands of Russians flood over the border. Reality has a bias and that Bias is Russia is the aggressors
 
C

Carcetti

Member
Serra said:
. But when the US did the exact same shit in multiple countries over decades, im guessing you didn't say shit and "swept it under the rug".
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This might come as a shock but not all the people on GAF are even from the US. The 'US did it' defense in these threads is really weak.
 
A

Acorn

Member
KingSnake said:
We go to this argument, really? 295 people unrelated with any war proxy or not died. 80 children it seems. And all you have to say is engaging in some pro and anti American shit?

Not that I didn't even say or think ever that this is ok when Americans are doing it, but proxy wars and providing guns usually bites in the ass the ones who do that one way or another. For this should pay Russia today (pun intended).
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Okay how about Americans shooting down passenger planes aswell as Russia during the cold war?

Pay how exactly, what do you propose? You want nuclear war?

Or diplomatic and economic actions that is pretty much the only thing two nuclear powers can do to eachother? Aka the thing likely to happen.

History matters because I don't want moral grandstanding over fucking nuclear war.
 
P

Pastry

Banned
Acorn said:
Okay how about Americans shooting down passenger planes aswell as Russia during the cold war?

Pay how exactly, what do you propose? You want nuclear war?

Or diplomatic and economic actions that is pretty much the only thing two nuclear powers can do to eachother? Aka the thing likely to happen.

History matters because I don't want moral grandstanding over fucking nuclear war.
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Please take this stuff to another thread, this should be about facts regarding the crash.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
Serra said:
Like others have said over and over again to people spouting comments like yours: how does this differ from what the US has done over decades in the middle east or central/south america?




No, it should not be swept under the rug. Russia should definitely face sanctions. But when the US did the exact same shit in multiple countries over decades, im guessing you didn't say shit and "swept it under the rug".
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Not that what US has been doing is acceptable, but they have been (justifiably) reticent to hand out anti aircraft weapons, especially ones with range up to commercial cruising altitudes.
 
Z

Zukuu

Banned
Megalosaro said:
Yes it is. But when we punish drunk drivers, we punish the individual. We don't punish their company, which funded their ability to afford a car in the first place.
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apples. oranges. drunk drivers don't act on behalf of a group that gave the order to do it...
 
K

Kinan

Member
ymmv said:
No problem. Eye witnesses are now telling on Russian TV they saw airplanes shooting at the passenger airliner. The real target of the Ukranian army was actually Vladimir Putin whose personal airplane was flying over the area at the same time.
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Yea, seen that. if its best they got, they can only feed it to masses internally, noone outside of Russia would believe this crap. Right, guys? RIght?
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Lets be fair here, the US has been supporting terrorists groups for decades for their own agenda and gone entirely unpunished for it except for the backlash from terrorists groups. Thats before even getting into the number of invasions by US forces and countless civilian deaths that are still going on as a result of it.
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But when the US did the exact same shit in multiple countries over decades, im guessing you didn't say shit and "swept it under the rug".
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Okay how about Americans shooting down passenger planes aswell as Russia during the cold war?
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etc

I don't think we need to go down the "US [/UK/Germany/whoever] does it too!" rabbit hole. Nearly 300 people were killed, and the past poor actions of various other states does not begin to excuse that.
 
S

Serra

Member
Carcetti said:
The 'US did it' defense in these threads is really weak.
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Its not a defence. I said it because people need to put this into perspective. Russia isn't some evil monster lurking under their beds looking to eat their children.

I said russia should face sanctions. These separatist groups should face even stricter sanctions, from russia too.

Edit: I see Cyan posted while I was writing this. I won't bring it up again.
 
K

kess

Member
KingSnake said:
Providing guns and military support for idiots with the unique scope of creating chaos from which Russia to gain tactical advantages (and/or territories).
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The whole idea of supporting unstable buffer quasi-states for the express purpose of antagonizing your neighbor is a pretty old idea, and it didn't work so well the first time.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Chariot said:
But still not clue from whom or from where, yes?
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We still don't know where officially. But evidence seems pretty strong.

Cyan said:
etc

I don't think we need to go down the "US [/UK/Germany/whoever] does it too!" rabbit hole. Nearly 300 people were killed, and the past poor actions of various other states does not begin to excuse that.
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Thank you, Cyan.

Less moral relativism and agendas in here, please. This is about a developing story; not about shallow political perspectives.
 
K

ksan

Member
Megalosaro said:
Yes it is. But when we punish drunk drivers, we punish the individual. We don't punish their company, which funded their ability to afford a car in the first place.
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Giving your car keys to someone who is drunk and letting him drive home is a more appropriate way to describe it in this case.
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Acorn said:
Okay how about Americans shooting down passenger planes aswell as Russia during the cold war?

Pay how exactly, what do you propose? You want nuclear war?

Or diplomatic and economic actions that is pretty much the only thing two nuclear powers can do to eachother? Aka the thing likely to happen.

History matters because I don't want moral grandstanding over fucking nuclear war.
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I don't make any proposal, the world is better by making you personally feel safe than having moral standards, you're right.
 
I

itsgreen

Member
They just did a count, what I got was (I missed a few countries)

43 people who's nationality isn't certain.
154 dutch
27 australians
6 uk
1 canadian
 
C

Chariot

Member
Dreams-Visions said:
We still don't know where officially. But evidence seems pretty strong.
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Yes, but an official confirmation could be important for further actions of all actors. If there is hard evidence for the fault of the rebels and their cowardly tries to hide it by deleting tweets, it could be the end of the seperation movement, since a lot of people don't want to be affliniated with this incident, least of all russia who can't keep supporting that easily now.
Is what I think.
Rivyn said:
154 Dutch people on board.

Fuck. FUCK FUCK FUCK!
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This is important for the dutch people, but for everything else it should have no meaning. The overall number of dead didn't go down or up. Every life is equally sacred.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
itsgreen said:
154 dutch
27 australians
6 uk
1 canadian
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Damn. So there were no Americans on board? I guess the earlier reports were inaccurate.

Chariot said:
Yes, but an official confirmation could be important for further actions of all actors. If there is hard evidence for the fault of the rebels and their cowardly tries to hide it by deleting tweets, it could be the end of the seperation movement, since a lot of people don't want to be affliniated with this incident, least of all russia who can't keep supporting that easily now.
Is what I think.
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Oh official confirmation will be a requirement. I think we'll get it in coming days.

HelloMeow said:
47 unknown.
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Oh i see :(
 
A

Anth1888

Member
kabel said:
"BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only. Find out why."


Ugh...Germany here.

Cant find anything from my news sites.
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It's just finished nothing really of note.

Airline did not confirmed it was shot down just reports as of yet and the Airline is unified in grief. He has also called Obama to investigate the site with other international teams.
 
F

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
ksan said:
Giving your car keys to someone who is drunk and letting him drive home is a more appropriate way to describe it in this case.
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No, it's really not. More like selling a gun to person who constantly whispers "I'm gonna kill them all"
 
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