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[CyclopsRock]

It's not like the US left the UK out to dry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events...icially_comes_down_on_the_side_of_the_British
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_war#Position_of_third_party_countries

but this is going off-topic

Whilst I appreciate the US sold us some missiles and allowed us to use Ascension, it does somewhat blow smoke at the idea that 'an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us', especially given how ridiculously close we came to losing that conflict. We struggled to maintain a blue water navy group so far from home, and had the US for involved, the whole thing could have been over much quicker and with a diminished loss of both British and Argentine lives, but they didn't. And I don't blame them - there were complex politics going on with regards to the Contras, the Monroe doctrine and even the international prestige of NATO, to show that it has effective members beyond the US. But let's not pretend we have some sort of mutual defence pact or something, either with The US specially out NATO generally, whatever the official rules are.

 

[DigitalDevil]

This got posted with the article on a local news website:

Are you fucking kidding me. Fire this idiot.

 

[Macready1306]

I hate reading about all the kids that were on board.... ugh.

I have an irrational fear of flying and one thing that always brings me calm for some reason (even though I'm an atheist) is when there are lots of kids on board, if there is any sort of justice in the world (supernatural or otherwise), that a plane couldn't possibly go down with lots of kids on board.

Then shit like this happens and brings me back to reality...

I feel EXACTLY the same. Atheist here as well and my thoughts are, infants on board a flight means that if there's some justice we will be fine. Goes to prove that's all just bullshit. My heart goes out to all family and friends of people who died. Just so very sad. How hard is it to live in fucking peace with one another?

 

[caesar]

Can anything really come from this apart from an apology without full blown war?

 

[Konka]

That's what Strelkov and Gubarev seem to indicate. Honestly I could see it being quite deliberate. The day after US hits Russia with heavier sanctions.

So they respond by taking out a Malaysian Airlines flight mostly full of Dutch. To think Russia intended this to happen is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Carn82]

Bingo. That's the burning question; who was trained for this, and where?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ssian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/

 

[Yagharek]

Can anything really come from this apart from an apology without full blown war?

I honestly think all we will get us denial of responsibility from Russia and maybe some token arrests and convictions.

 

[Operations]

Can anything really come from this apart from an apology without full blown war?

More sanctions and tough speeches.

 

[commedieu]

I feel EXACTLY the same. Atheist here as well and my thoughts are, infants on board a flight means that if there's some justice we will be fine. Goes to prove that's all just bullshit. My heart goes out to all family and friends of people who died. Just so very sad. How hard is it to live in fucking peace with one another?

When someone puts something in motion to kill you, its not really up to anyone or fate. Its the free will of life. You just hope that you land safe, or hope you don't get hit by a car on a sidewalk, or hope someone doesn't just come up to you and shoot you. Not really up to anyone besides people putting it in motion. imo.

So they respond by taking out a Malaysian Airlines flight mostly full of Dutch. To think Russia intended this to happen is beyond ridiculous.

They wanted to shoot down a plane. They didn't know what plane they were shooting, and russia provided the weapons. Eh, well.. This is sort of completely russias fault.

 

[TheContact]

I feel EXACTLY the same. Atheist here as well and my thoughts are, infants on board a flight means that if there's some justice we will be fine. Goes to prove that's all just bullshit. My heart goes out to all family and friends of people who died. Just so very sad. How hard is it to live in fucking peace with one another?

So hard that there hasn't been one single day on this planet since the beginning of our ancestry where that wasn't the case

 

[DarkFlow]

That doesn't make sense. To shoot down a Malaysian airliner because the US imposed sanctions? This is almost clearly an accident. It's hard to distinguish between the an-26 an a boeing from that high up in the air. A trigger happy pilot, probably inexperienced but enough to at least operate the thing, made a really poor decision

It has a transponder yelling out what it is, and missile system radar can tell how big it is. A 777 would look nothing like a an 26.

 

[TheContact]

Can anything really come from this apart from an apology without full blown war?

I highly doubt an apology will be given but there won't be a war because of this

It has a transponder yelling out what it is, and missile system radar can tell how big it is. A 777 would look nothing like a an 26.

Right but an inexperienced operator, or in the case of the Iranian flight, an error in judgement, proves that mistakes can happen even if the operator does have experience. These aren't military--they're barely trained militia

 

[Escape Goat]

It was reported that US believed Russia to be supplying rebels with heavy arms. I don't know if SAMs qualify. Might be tough to sneak those anywhere.

 

[DigitalDevil]

I wonder if there's any truth to the separatists taking the black box from the scene...

 

[sangreal]

Can anything really come from this apart from an apology without full blown war?

I would be surprised if even an apology is forthcoming. Wouldn't expect more than condolences and denial

 

[sangreal]

From the guardian:

ABC news is reporting the extra three people now added to the list of passengers killed were three infants, and so were not in seats themselves.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-ukraine-live#block-53c86543e4b024b6f329c501

 

[Macready1306]

So hard that there hasn't been one single day on this planet since the beginning of our ancestry where that wasn't the case

Human nature I suppose. Just very hard to understand is all. Infants who are completely innocent should be able to live a full life, not ended over some bullshit.

 

[DiscoJer]

Can anything really come from this apart from an apology without full blown war?

Who exactly would be going to war?

The US/NATO isn't. The Dutch aren't.

It would be suicidal folly for the Ukraine to do anything, they can't even remove these rebels from their own territory.

 

[Smellycat]

From the guardian:

oh come on :/

It really is getting worse and worse

 

[Dabanton]

From the guardian:


http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-ukraine-live#block-53c86543e4b024b6f329c501

I think that's enough news about this for me tonight.

Absolutely sickened.

 

[gdt]

Man I just heard that some gaffers lost people. That's horrible to hear.

Much love to those affected. Need to catch up on the rest of this thread.

 

[LNBL]

Another picture at the Dutch embassy in Ukraine

 

[sangreal]

nm will take it to the other thread that I did not see

 

[inm8num2]

My heart goes out to all friends and family of the passengers. Such a terrible tragedy.

 

[KingSnake]

The International AIDS Society has released a statement, confirming that a number of the passengers were on their way to the international AIDS conference in Melbourne.

The International AIDS Society today expresses its sincere sadness at receiving news that a number of colleagues and friends en route to attend the 20th International AIDS Conference taking place in Melbourne, Australia, were on board the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight that has crashed over Ukraine earlier today.

At this incredibly sad and sensitive time the IAS stands with our international family and sends condolences to the loved ones of those who have been lost to this tragedy.

Children and scientists. I'm very sad.

 

[NaM]

This got posted with the article on a local news website:

My local e-"newspaper" did the same.

 

[superdeluxe]

Repost? Clinton says missiles had to have come from Russia:

http://youtu.be/nkTRJgDkNFg?list=UUwBUwaTxztTPuSzIi2cjimw

 

[FUME5]

This is just incredible (and incredibly tragic).

It's hard to guess at what this will do to global politics.

 

[commedieu]

Charlie rose is fast...

 

[TheContact]

Repost? Clinton says missiles had to have come from Russia:

http://youtu.be/nkTRJgDkNFg?list=UUwBUwaTxztTPuSzIi2cjimw

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

 

[MikeDown]

This got posted with the article on a local news website:

im sorry but who the fuck does these sort of things. It is tasteless.

 

[sangreal]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

It's a difference without a distinction. They captured the Ukrainian equipment w/ Russian support

 

[stufte]

im sorry but who the fuck does these sort of things. It is tasteless.

Not that it makes it less tasteless, but this was probably made a few months ago when the other Malaysian Airlines plane went missing. Since, you know... LOST.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

Sounds like she needs good ol' carfo's help.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

it's not like you can self-teach yourself to use these things...

 

[antonz]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

Probably 95% of the "Rebels" are Russian Soldiers. You are not operating a BUK as some random joe. They are highly specialized equipment spread across 3 vehicles. Russia did it

 

[ShinHayase]

The Russian military is rather poorly trained and trigger happy. I could see them doing it. Likely? No, but possible.

Poorly trained? Trigger happy?

What leads you to this conclusion?

 

[TTG]

Why were they flying over that area in the first place? Granted it's not like flying over Gaza, but there are yokels down there with advanced weapons thinking they're at war. What a tragedy.

 

[Random17]

In regards to the route; airlines and safety organizations generally wouldn't expect planes to be shot at by higher tech military level equipment. Shoulder mounted launchers such as Stingers have a very limited range and they are not going to even come close to a plane flying ~10km high.

The route it took would have been considered safe even if it flew over warzones like Eastern Ukraine or Afghanistan for this reason.

 

[CTLance]

We Germans have it easy, comparatively. Only four deaths. Not much in the face of the nearly 300 lives that perished in that plane. (Still four too many, of course.)

My condolences to the bereaved. I've been lurking in this thread for a few hours now, and I still can't quite put into words how all of this makes me feel. I can't even imagine how it is when you know that one of your friends or family was on this plane.

 

[DarkFlow]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

Or maybe she has access to some high level info that you don't?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Probably 95% of the "Rebels" are Russian Soldiers. You are not operating a BUK as some random joe. They are highly specialized equipment spread across 3 vehicles. Russia did it

Can you provide a source for this please?

 

[Circle Jerk]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

boy who knows more carfo or the former secretary of state hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[BlastProcessing]

Does she not understand that separatists have captured equipment from Ukraine army? Even if a Russia DID give them the missile that shot down the plane, why exclude the fact that they've captured equipment, including a SAM, from Ukraine that could have been used? If she becomes President I hope she has good advisers..

It's possible she has access to more intelligence on the matter than we do.

 

[DarkFlow]

Poorly trained? Trigger happy?

What leads you to this conclusion?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...b955b8-a48c-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

Starved for funds in the 1990s and early 2000s, Moscow’s “troop readiness, training, morale, and discipline suffered, and most arms industries became antiquated,” according to a Congressional Research Service (CRS) report released Wednesday.

Russia’s invasion of Georgia in 2008 showed many operational weaknesses and triggered Putin’s major investment in defense spending and armed forces restructuring.

It's not a well funded force, and training standards are lax. It's getting better but it's not all that great.

 

[TheContact]

Or maybe she has access to some high level info that you don't?

boy who knows more carfo or the former secretary of state hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

No doubt she knows more than me but there's video evidence of them capturing a SAM from the Ukrainian army and I'm just saying that notion shouldn't be excluded from the reasoning of who could have shot it down. She just said it had to be Russia because they're the only ones capable of having the equipment to shoot down the plane, I'm just saying they can get equipment from elsewhere and she didn't seem to acknowledge that. Of course she knows more than me I don't claim to know more than her, just stating that

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...b955b8-a48c-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html



It's not a well funded force, and training standards are lax. It's getting better but it's not all that great.

That's why I always thought it was funny people don't think the US could easily beat the Russian armed forces.

 

[Arkanius]

And to to think no one is doing anything to get a swift resolution to Putin's hubris.
Fuck this shit, that plane, it could have been any of us.

This shit is retarded, unjust and senseless.

 

[TTG]

In regards to the route; airlines and safety organizations generally wouldn't expect planes to be shot at by higher tech military level equipment. Shoulder mounted launchers such as Stingers have a very limited range and they are not going to even come close to a plane flying ~10km high.

The route it took would have been considered safe even if it flew over warzones like Eastern Ukraine or Afghanistan for this reason.

Not even when such weapons are known to be in the hands of rebel forces? In that sense, I would think Afghanistan is a much smaller risk versus Ukraine. At what point do logistics/fuel costs outweigh that risk? I wonder if the passengers were aware of the flight path... this is terrible.

 

[DarkFlow]

No doubt she knows more than me but there's video evidence of them capturing a SAM from the Ukrainian army and I'm just saying that notion shouldn't be excluded from the reasoning of who could have shot it down. She just said it had to be Russia because they're the only ones capable of having the equipment to shoot down the plane, I'm just saying they can get equipment from elsewhere and she didn't seem to acknowledge that. Of course she knows more than me I don't claim to know more than her, just stating that

Capturing a missile system is great and all, but how would they use it? If I gave you a BUK missile system right now, could you use it? It has like 2 parts, a radar truck that tracks the target and feeds that info to the missile track that fires. You think someone that captured one could use it with no training?