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[CrankyJay]

No. The commercial airliners dont have a way to detect incoming missiles unlike, say, military craft like a C31.

Unless the sound was louder than the ambient noise of the aircraft itself, or someone saw it out the window depending on the angle of approach, it would have been a complete shock.

Actually, there are devices for commercial airliners to detect shoulder launched missiles. It's produced by Northrop Grumman and called Guardian.

But that probably wouldn't have helped here.

 

[DarkKyo]

What do you even want to say with this?

I think he said it pretty concisely...

 

[mikeyw85]

If you look at all the flights going on at the time you'll see that there were 2 other planes within the same area.

No need to get all crazy, the flight path was well traveled.

Some airlines like British Airways had been avoiding that area of the Ukraine for a long time. Obviously now many or all airlines are avoiding a larger area.

 

[Mac_Lane]

What do you even want to say with this?

That, in terms of casualties, this is to the Netherlands what 9/11 was to the US.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

Actually, there are devices for commercial airliners to detect shoulder launched missiles. It's produced by Northrop Grumman and called Guardian.

But that probably wouldn't have helped here.

Those rockets has 0.8-0.9 chances (out of 1.0) to hit jet (F-15 class). So yes, Boing was doomed. And there you can see, that Buk has only 2 rocket, out of 4. Normal is to launch 2 rocket per target, so air plain can't outmaneuver it.

"http://censor.net.ua/cnPlayer.swf?vf=180714_mvd

 

[captainnapalm]

Girkin (leader of terrorists in DNR) claimed that people on airplane was already dead several days before catastrophe.

http://vk.com/strelkov_info

18.07.2014 12:40

Quote crazy reading the stuff on there, albeit with shitty translation:

Comment by I. Strelkov. - Version with a plane full of corpses, exciting, of course, but somehow can not see sense. I. VI: "First, not all people on the plane were dead before the fall. Secondly, the plane was discovered a large quantity of drugs, blood serum and other things, which is not typical for conventional liner. seems that there was a medical special- cargo. Thirdly, no not insist on anything (yet). literally just now talked to two people personally collected the bodies immediately after the fall (both - of Shakhtersk and arrived at the scene in less than half an hour after the crash.) With their words and writing. They stressed that many corpses were "quite bloodless" - as if the blood curled long before the disaster. recognizes and strongest smell of corpses marked by many locals - this odor in any weather for half an hour could not be formed, and the weather was overcast yesterday not too hot. Fourth itself with extreme suspicion concern to all kinds of "conspiracy theory", but 18 of our soldiers poisoned chemistry in position in Semenovka, shooting family members of militias and other "small pleasures svedomyh patriots" have convinced me that the Ukrainian authorities capable of any meanness. Pilots, of course, were quite alive - the whole cabin (and the front end is well preserved) was literally flooded with their blood. "

 

[soxinthebox]

What do you even want to say with this?

It's as significant as 9/11 was for America for the Netherlands. Whether that's true or not it doesn't matter, it's a horrific event on its own.

 

[Yagharek]

Actually, there are devices for commercial airliners to detect shoulder launched missiles. It's produced by Northrop Grumman and called Guardian.

But that probably wouldn't have helped here.

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

 

[Sadist]

Man, all those flowers in front of the Dutch embassy in Kiev...

Even in Moscow there are a few flowers in front of the embassy... and a note with just the word "sorry" on it. Damn.

 

[CrankyJay]

Those rockets has 0.8-0.9 chances (out of 1.0) to hit jet (F-15 class). So yes, Boing was doomed. And there you can see, that Buk has only 2 rocket, out of 4. Normal is to launch 2 rocket per target, so air plain can't outmaneuver it.

"http://censor.net.ua/cnPlayer.swf?vf=180714_mvd

I wasn't talking about outmaneuvering, I was refuting the post that said commercial airliners have no way of detecting missiles.

 

[Chariot]

I think he said it pretty concisely...

That, in terms of casualties, this is to the Netherlands what 9/11 was to the US.

Yes, but I don't think that this is the matter here. 9/11 was a direct attack against the country and the people that died. The ukraine seperatists have no beef with Holland (or anyone else who could've fired the missile, if you don't believe the seperatists are at fault).
It's a tragic event and those responsible have fucked up big, but it wasn't an attack on the Netherlands.

 

[zorlaczerohero]

Just what I needed to hear 3 days before flying from Sydney to the UK.

Interview here with an Aussie former head of Quantas safety, seems he's pretty sure the Seperatists did it.

Which to my mind makes sense. The official Ukraine government would have access to flight plans crossing their territory, they'd see a jet at 33,000 feet and tick it off against known flights. The separatists would have no such information. I'd presume Russia had nothing to do with it, except maybe on a supply basis, which by no means makes them innocent, shouldn't give missiles to fuckwits. But they'll deny it all, say that the Ukraine did it and framed them, then they'll act all hurt when more sanctions are put on them, the west will back down because nukes. Nothing will change except maybe a leadership reshuffle for the separatists.

So RussiaGAF what's the take on it all over there?

 

[MrKnives]

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

It's a commercial jumbojet. Very unlikely they could have done anything.

 

[Zeppu]

Girkin (leader of terrorists in DNR) claimed that people on airplane was already dead several days before catastrophe.

http://vk.com/strelkov_info

18.07.2014 12:40

Someone's been watching BBC Sherlock.

 

[Aiii]

Yes, but I don't think that this is the matter here. 9/11 was a direct attack against the country and the people that died. The ukraine seperatists have no beef with Holland (or anyone else who could've fired the missile, if you don't believe the seperatists are at fault).
It's a tragic event and those responsible have fucked up big, but it wasn't an attack on the Netherlands.

I think it's safe to say that they do now.

 

[CrankyJay]

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

The product pages gets into specifics. It's laser based. But as pointed out it wouldn't have mattered.

 

[Kinan]

Oh god. New audio transcripts from SBU :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgdqdklrqDA&feature=youtu.be

Basically allow to track all the movement of that BUK system and confirming that "rebels" got the system from Russia WITH THE CREW.

Holy shit.

 

[KingSnake]

12:27: The speaker of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's (OSCE) Parliamentary Assembly, Finnish MP Ilkka Kanerva, has issued a statement condemning the "downing" of the jet. "A swift, thorough, international investigation is needed to determine the exact circumstances of the crash and bring the perpetrators to justice," he said.
"However, there are already strong indications that a missile launched from rebel-controlled areas may have caused this catastrophe. In that case, there would be no doubt that those responsible for the illicit flow of military hardware and weapons into eastern Ukraine and those who directly or indirectly challenge the Ukrainian government's authority over its own territory bear the ultimate responsibility. I reiterate my call for an unconditional ceasefire that is respected by all sides and urge the governments in Moscow and Kyiv to do all in their power to immediately de-escalate this situation."

From BBC.

 

[DarkKyo]

Yes, but I don't think that this is the matter here. 9/11 was a direct attack against the country and the people that died. The ukraine seperatists have no beef with Holland (or anyone else who could've fired the missile, if you don't believe the seperatists are at fault).
It's a tragic event and those responsible have fucked up big, but it wasn't an attack on the Netherlands.

I got that he was only talking about casualties, not the intent of the attack. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Tugatrix]

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

It's passanger jet, it react too slow to out-manoeuvre a missile, a fighter jet has a chance but not a 777

 

[Nicktendo86]

This is the same thing I was saying last night, but I got called a warmonger for pointing out that the EU nations have a better economy and a better army. We have nothing to fear from them.

And then out comes some bullshit about nukes and M.A.D.


Yeah, there aready so many nutjobs on sites like reddit and facebook that are taking the Russian side, with the usual "American is evil too".

It wouldn't even come to that. Putin seems mad, but he isn't completely insane enough to start a potential nuclear war. If their income is cut off they will be forced to cooperate I am sure, in face we should get off our reliance off oil and gas from middle eastern countries as well.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

I can't speak about Buk, as I was trained on c300. So on c300 target is highlighted by ray that guide it whenever it moves, rocket read magnetic field (from highlighting ray) and autopilot corrects course (this is body guidance, I hope it is right translation). As target is far far away from RLS, it is easy to guide. Rocket gets pre-navigation and get lunched. There is several types of guidance systems, but at the end, it always going to point little further of air plain and explode near it. Warhead consist of thousands of metal particles, that thrown at plain and ripping it apart. Buk rockets much smaller, but I think guidance principles are equel.

 

[spekkeh]

Oh god. New audio transcripts from SBU :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgdqdklrqDA&feature=youtu.be

Basically allow to track all the movement of that BUK system and confirming that "rebels" got the system from Russia WITH THE CREW.

Holy shit.

As much as I'm sure the rebels did it, we should take these kinds of smoking guns that would end the war for Ukraine with a pinch of salt.

 

[trinest]

Quote crazy reading the stuff on there, albeit with shitty translation:

That sounds like the plot to The Strain.

 

[Jito]

Yes, but I don't think that this is the matter here. 9/11 was a direct attack against the country and the people that died. The ukraine seperatists have no beef with Holland (or anyone else who could've fired the missile, if you don't believe the seperatists are at fault).
It's a tragic event and those responsible have fucked up big, but it wasn't an attack on the Netherlands.

"It's not as bad because it was an accident" In fact we don't even know if it was an accident. They could be purposely targeting civilians now.

Fuck all terrorists, their insane beliefs and their disregard for human life, no excuses.

 

[Oersted]

This Facebook pic of a airplane with the "in case it disappeared" line... proven fake?

 

[Casimir]

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

...this is a commercial passenger aircraft we are talking about, not a fighter. Outside of malufunction within the missle(s) systems themselves, everyone's fate was sealed after the missiles were launched.

 

[Chariot]

"It's not as bad because it was an accident" In fact we don't even know if it was an accident. They could be purposely targeting civilians now.

Fuck all terrorists, their insane beliefs and their disregard for human life, no excuses.

Yo, don't just put words in my mouth. I was saying that it didn't had the same political meaning than 9/11. For what reason else would you bring up 9/11 in this context and not any other plaincrash or other catastrophe of greater scale.

 

[Jito]

Yo, don't just put words in my mouth. I was saying that it didn't had the same political meaning than 9/11. For what reason else would you bring up 9/11 in this context and not any other plaincrash or other catastrophe of greater scale.

He was clearly comparing the loss of life compared to total population. You're the one jumping the gun.

 

[Omiee]

This Facebook pic of a airplane with the "in case it disappeared" line... proven fake?

its real, the guy was actually on the plane, i have him on facebook.

 

[TheContact]

Quote crazy reading the stuff on there, albeit with shitty translation:

That can't be real..but the drugs, blood serum may be a reference to the aids researchers? They collected bodies for what reason? Then says it's a conspiracy because they were dead longer than 30 minutes? Then says the Ukraine set it up? And the pilots were alive? Pretty silly, would probably need a better translation.

Also is that confirmed to be his real page? There was a report that people made that page as an imitation like people do here with twitter etc

 

[glaurung]

Is that because of the mechanism used by the missiles to lock on? And if they had the warning time, how likely is it that evasive manoeuvrings could be undertaken with a reasonable chance of success?

The system in this particular case consists of a radar station and guided missiles.

The radar on the ground can track anything that is detected above (up to an elevation of 22 km). The missiles are launched and their trajectory is adjusted with the base of the radar that tracks the target.

 

[jimi_dini]

"It's not as bad because it was an accident"

depends on who did it I guess.
Could have been an "errant missile" as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

 

[Oersted]

its real, the guy was actually on the plane, i have him on facebook.

Ah thanks.

 

[Pixel Beak]

They should equip passenger jets with flares.

 

[trinest]

This Facebook pic of a airplane with the "in case it disappeared" line... proven fake?

Probably done a million times since the last flight and someones just done it when a flight has had something happen to it.

 

[Carn82]

latest communique from MA:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsyQGUmCAAEHrOa.jpg

 

[whytemyke]

So, how does this end? I know if it was the US, we'd probably just bomb the areas that hit the plane and be done with it (kinda like how Clinton used to deal with Iraq back in the late 90s, "proportional response" and all.) But this is the EU... so what is the endgame with all of this?

I'm assuming it's nothing, because really, what can you do? To move on the rebels would be to take a side in a civil war which violates the prime directive, but I don't know. I'd like to hear some Europeans take on what the next step is.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

So, how does this end? I know if it was the US, we'd probably just bomb the areas that hit the plane and be done with it (kinda like how Clinton used to deal with Iraq back in the late 90s, "proportional response" and all.) But this is the EU... so what is the endgame with all of this?

I'm assuming it's nothing, because really, what can you do? To move on the rebels would be to take a side in a civil war which violates the prime directive, but I don't know. I'd like to hear some Europeans take on what the next step is.

Well, all this thing is bucked by Russia, so if there will be evidence, that Buk was transported from Russia, it will be isolated (I mean Russia will back to USSR 2.0). I doubt about direct military help to Ukraine.

 

[Jito]

depends on who did it I guess.
Could have been an "errant missile" as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

Yeh seems to be a scary amount of civilian planes shot down and countries never owning up to their actions.

 

[Rorsach]

I think nothing is going to come from this. Perhaps in the future airlines will avoid flying above active warzones.

 

[captainnapalm]

That can't be real..but the drugs, blood serum may be a reference to the aids researchers? They collected bodies for what reason? Then says it's a conspiracy because they were dead longer than 30 minutes? Then says the Ukraine set it up? And the pilots were alive? Pretty silly, would probably need a better translation.

Also is that confirmed to be his real page? There was a report that people made that page as an imitation like people do here with twitter etc

It's not Strelkov's Facebook page, though several news sources have claimed it to be. It's just a newsfeed publishing online chatter and comms from separatist sources.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

So, how does this end? I know if it was the US, we'd probably just bomb the areas that hit the plane and be done with it (kinda like how Clinton used to deal with Iraq back in the late 90s, "proportional response" and all.) But this is the EU... so what is the endgame with all of this?

I'm assuming it's nothing, because really, what can you do? To move on the rebels would be to take a side in a civil war which violates the prime directive, but I don't know. I'd like to hear some Europeans take on what the next step is.

Nothing the world will huff and puff and go sit in a corner.

 

[Vastag]

Yeh seems to be a scary amount of civilian planes shot down and countries never owning up to their actions.

I think that you wanted to post this list.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Okay, so I've missed the last 10 or so pages since I began following this yesterday morning.

Has it been officially confirmed that the plane was shot down by Russian rebels who were provided the Buk system by Russia? Is the blame now solely on the Russian government or are they still continuing to displace the blame?

 

[Cloudy]

Breaking: Putin calls for a ceasefire

 

[glaurung]

So, how does this end? I know if it was the US, we'd probably just bomb the areas that hit the plane and be done with it (kinda like how Clinton used to deal with Iraq back in the late 90s, "proportional response" and all.) But this is the EU... so what is the endgame with all of this?

I'm assuming it's nothing, because really, what can you do? To move on the rebels would be to take a side in a civil war which violates the prime directive, but I don't know. I'd like to hear some Europeans take on what the next step is.

Who knows how this will end... History is unpredictable and this situation is volatile.

Some theories though:

• Considering this BUK-M was brought from Russia with the crew and it has since returned there, Russia will now pull back a little. Might just provide enough breathing room for Ukraine forces to take back their lands in the East.
• Heavy and heavier sanctions against Russia. Pushing Vlad even more into a corner and he really does not have anywhere to go any more. Up to a point where his internal allies turn against him for not getting their caviar that day.
• EU springing into action, though this is highly unlikely.

 

[Midnight Phoenix]

Okay, so I've missed the last 10 or so pages since I began following this yesterday morning.

Has it been officially confirmed that the plane was shot down by Russian rebels who were provided the Buk system by Russia? Is the blame now solely on the Russian government or are they still continuing to displace the blame?

Official states will be after United Nations conference, 2 more hours until it starts.

 

[LiK]

Man, victim info starting to come out and that's when it hits you again.

 

[runningjoke]

So, how does this end? I know if it was the US, we'd probably just bomb the areas that hit the plane and be done with it (kinda like how Clinton used to deal with Iraq back in the late 90s, "proportional response" and all.) But this is the EU... so what is the endgame with all of this?

I'm assuming it's nothing, because really, what can you do? To move on the rebels would be to take a side in a civil war which violates the prime directive, but I don't know. I'd like to hear some Europeans take on what the next step is.

We have nothing to gain from escalating the conflict. We will want to bring those responsible to justice, not with bombs but with the ICC.