Support NeoGAF

[Escape Goat]

Only when it's asked for.

No. Nobody does anything ever. Iraq was one of the biggest unwarranted acts of aggression and everyone played lip service because having the US invade benefits them too. Stability and influence of a western power is good for business.

 

[Joey Fox]

Cool, have you enlisted yet?

I served my four years in the Marines, and may join the reserves to secure our people.

Not going to rejoin a pansy-led military.

 

[CrankyJay]

I served my four years in the Marines, and may join the reserves to secure our people.

Not going to rejoin a pansy-led military.

Hoorah

 

[eot]

But the world is content to have us play the role.

Did you ask the world? Plenty of people even in the west are against constant american military intervention.

 

[Hermii]

Why are we so afraid to respond militarily? The safety of Americans has been compromised by a foreign military.

This is a perfect excuse to ally with Ukraine and protect it's border.

Maybe the same reason even the most hawkish presidents during the cold war were afraid of direct confrontation with the Russians.

 

[Tamanon]

I served my four years in the Marines, and may join the reserves to secure our people.

Not going to rejoin a pansy-led military.

As a former marine, one would think you know why the military is the last thing you want to use in someone else's civil war conflict.

 

[Dilly]

Why are we so afraid to respond militarily? The safety of Americans has been compromised by a foreign military.

This is a perfect excuse to ally with Ukraine and protect it's border.

Great idea, Dick Cheney.

 

[WayneMorse]

I served my four years in the Marines, and may join the reserves to secure our people.

Not going to rejoin a pansy-led military.

Are you calling Obama a pansy? Really?

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

This is great news. Glad it didn't fall into the wrong hands.

The Ukranian government is the right hands? might as well hand it over to moscow. At this point the only truth we can get is to give that blackbox to one African country, otherwise take anything you get with a grain of salt. Everyone has an agenda in this conflict, neither Moscow nor Kiev no Washington nor Brussels can give a fair accounting.

 

[nib95]

This is truly awful. It's my Birthday today but in all honesty with all the shit going on right now, I do not feel particularly well spirited.

 

[LiK]

This is truly awful. It's my Birthday today but in all honesty with all the shit going on right now, I do not feel particularly well spirited.

Happy bday?

 

[DJ SLEV3N]

Even from the grainy footage of the plane tumbling to earth, I can tell it was a passenger jet of some sort, they must be pretty ignorant to airplane types not see that it was slightly different to a freakin AN8 or whatever soviet scrap they fly.

Especially with optics.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Even from the grainy footage of the plane tumbling to earth, I can tell it was a passenger jet of some sort, they must be pretty ignorant to airplane types not see that it was slightly different to a freakin AN8 or whatever soviet scrap they fly.

What footage?

 

[stufte]

I served my four years in the Marines, and may join the reserves to secure our people.

Not going to rejoin a pansy-led military.

Secure our people from what?

Obama is a pansy military leader?

Show me the receipts.

 

[driver116]

In this thread:

What a prat

 

[Roude Leiw]

Even from the grainy footage of the plane tumbling to earth, I can tell it was a passenger jet of some sort, they must be pretty ignorant to airplane types not see that it was slightly different to a freakin AN8 or whatever soviet scrap they fly.

when you lock on a SAM, the target is not in eye sight.

 

[kess]

The Ukranian government is the right hands? might as well hand it over to moscow. At this point the only truth we can get is to give that blackbox to one African country, otherwise take anything you get with a grain of salt. Everyone has an agenda in this conflict, neither Moscow nor Kiev no Washington nor Brussels can give a fair accounting.

Malaysia doesn't seem to have any problems with the Ukrainians being in possession of it, and that's all that matters now.

 

[Hrothgar]

The Ukranian government is the right hands? might as well hand it over to moscow. At this point the only truth we can get is to give that blackbox to one African country, otherwise take anything you get with a grain of salt. Everyone has an agenda in this conflict, neither Moscow nor Kiev no Washington nor Brussels can give a fair accounting.

It's not like the black boxes are going to tell us anything, it's pretty cut and dry already.

 

[DJ SLEV3N]

when you lock on a SAM, the target is not in eye sight.

So you mean at no point before the firing process, do you actually get a visual on your target?

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

The Ukranian government is the right hands? might as well hand it over to moscow. At this point the only truth we can get is to give that blackbox to one African country, otherwise take anything you get with a grain of salt. Everyone has an agenda in this conflict, neither Moscow nor Kiev no Washington nor Brussels can give a fair accounting.

I think equating Moscow with Washington is false equivalence. Russia seems to just blatantly do whatever they want. The US has to at least answer to a skeptical media and skeptical citizens.

I served my four years in the Marines, and may join the reserves to secure our people.

Not going to rejoin a pansy-led military.

If you can find me one person in Washington advocating military intervention I'd be amazed. Even John McCain isn't saying anything like that.

 

[enewtabie]

So you mean at no point before the firing process, do you actually get a visual on your target?

Not at 32k ft. Heat signature or radar based. Man portables lock on the same way but you can usually see what your aiming at also.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

So pushlin "resigned" you wont see him again.

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

So you mean at no point before the firing process, do you actually get a visual on your target?

No.

 

[gofreak]

It's not like the black boxes are going to tell us anything, it's pretty cut and dry already.

Maybe in the large, but there could be important info in there to help reconstruct more exactly what happened and how the plane broke up. Maybe, I guess it depends if there was an immediately destructive explosion or if the plane continued to some extent intact post-explosion etc.

 

[thezerofire]

This is truly awful. It's my Birthday today but in all honesty with all the shit going on right now, I do not feel particularly well spirited.

It was my birthday yesterday. Not a particularly bright day throughout the world

 

[Nikodemos]

Not at 32k ft. Heat signature or radar based. Man portables lock on the same way but you can usually see what your aiming at also.

Not true. Soviet SAM systems like the Buk have camera and joystick backup systems. If you look at images of a Buk TELAR, you'll see a thingy on top of the radar unit. That's a video camera with a long zoom lens. You use it to eyeball the target.

 

[Delta Assault]

So you mean at no point before the firing process, do you actually get a visual on your target?

Ummm...no. It's a blip on your radar screen. They don't actually pull out their binoculars to spot the plane beforehand.

 

[kess]

Hmm

‏

@maxseddon
Donetsk Republic leader Pushilin resigns after surviving several assassination attempts, being dislodged by Russians, & leaving for Moscow.
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490185002395922432

 

[enewtabie]

Not true. Soviet SAM systems like the Buk have camera and joystick backup systems. If you look at images of a Buk TELAR, you'll see a thingy on top of the radar unit. That's a video camera with a long zoom lens. You use it to eyeball the target.

Hmm. Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Roude Leiw]

So you mean at no point before the firing process, do you actually get a visual on your target?

i dont think so, because the operators are sitting inside a truck/tracked vehicle looking at their screens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

 

[Nikodemos]

Hmm. Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

Old-school Buk command consoles. The TV station is furthest in the back.

Close-up of the TV station. The CRT screen is quite prominent.

 

[n0n44m]

just realized friend of a brother of a friend was on board

didn't know the person, but recognized the description on some news site from some stuff I heard about that person

small country huh ...

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

just realized friend of a brother of a friend was on board

didn't know the person, but recognized the description on some news site from some stuff I heard about that person

small country huh ...

I'm very sorry, my condolences to your friend.

 

[enewtabie]

Old-school Buk command consoles. The TV station is furthest in the back.

Close-up of the TV station. The CRT screen is quite prominent.

Always liked the Russian simplicity of equipment. Seen the inside of some of their older jets and its always amazing compared to our stuff.

 

[industrian]

I think equating Moscow with Washington is false equivalence. Russia seems to just blatantly do whatever they want. The US has to at least answer to a skeptical media and skeptical citizens.

...And ignore said sceptical media and sceptical citizens due to the innate polarisation of politics in the United States allowing them to have a significant support base no matter what they say or do.

Don't get me wrong, the US Government is infinitely more accountable than the KGB carousel in Moscow. But the Iraq War was all the proof you needed that if the US Government really wants to spin some bullshit to support their objectives then nothing (sceptical media, sceptical citizens, the truth, etc) will stop them.

 

[ActStriker]

About the one American killed, if anyone wants to read up:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/eu...ines-flight/dbOmYhksa4rybH5q74KYaK/story.html

He was a dual national US/Dutch.

Additionally, one of the Dutch killed was a grad student at Indiana University.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Channel 4 news (UK) reporting international observers have been shot at :/

 

[Sharpeye]

Channel 4 news (UK) reporting international observers have been shot at :/

These Rebels are just asking for it at this point.

 

[Tugatrix]

Channel 4 news (UK) reporting international observers have been shot at :/

not helping their cause at all

 

[Knoxcore]

Channel 4 news (UK) reporting international observers have been shot at :/

Russia f***ed it up now they have to clean it up. You break it, you bought it. They can't expect to destabilize an entire region and expect to go about things all honky dory. This is why I thought this all conflict was a fools errand on Russia's part. It cost money to rebuild. Taking over a region is easy, keeping it whole is another matter.

 

[Cheeky]

Not at 32k ft. Heat signature or radar based. Man portables lock on the same way but you can usually see what your aiming at also.

But wouldnt you be able to tell the difference between a Turboprop and a Turbofan? Or even the height potential between the two.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

But wouldnt you be able to tell the difference between a Turboprop and a Turbofan? Or even the height potential between the two.

It's all academic because it has a builtin IFF Interrogator. It was either ignored due to operator error/ignorance or on purpose, or the hardware failed.

 

[Omiee]

If this was some Arab country or group nato would have nuked them to the stond age

 

[Nikodemos]

It's all academic because it has a builtin IFF Interrogator.

IFF can be overridden. In fact, whomever was operating the Buk had to override the IFF in order to launch, otherwise the system would have been in lock-out mode.

EDIT: This makes the operators twice criminal. Firstly for not eyeballing with the TV unit whatever they were painting, secondly for overriding the IFF.

 

[Pickman]

If this was some Arab country or group nato would have nuked them to the stond age

NATO doesn't get to nuke anyone.

 

[Pickman]

IFF can be overridden. In fact, whomever was operating the Buk had to override the IFF in order to launch, otherwise the system would have been in lock-out mode.

EDIT: This makes the operators twice criminal. Firstly for not eyeballing whatever they were painting with the TV unit, secondly for overriding the IFF.

If they were using a stolen Ukrainian Buk, they'd need to disable the IFF system in order to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft, right?

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

IFF can be overridden. In fact, whomever was operating the Buk had to override the IFF in order to launch, otherwise the system would have been in lock-out mode.

EDIT: This makes the operators twice criminal. Firstly for not eyeballing with the TV unit whatever they were painting, secondly for overriding the IFF.

Yeah, that was basically my point.

 

[Tugatrix]

If this was some Arab country or group nato would have nuked them to the stond age

when was the last time someone was nuked by NATO?

Spoiler

I know the answer, he probably not

 

[MisterFalcon]

IFF can be overridden. In fact, whomever was operating the Buk had to override the IFF in order to launch, otherwise the system would have been in lock-out mode.

EDIT: This makes the operators twice criminal. Firstly for not eyeballing whatever they were painting with the TV unit, secondly for overriding the IFF.

I don't think civilian airliners are sending an IFF signal that identifies it as a friendly to a Russian system, just a code for their flight. If it was so easy every combat jet in the world would broadcast a civilian IFF signal.

edit: from what I've read the Buk they had was just a TELAR, a Transporter Erector Launcher Air Radar that has a powerful but narrow beam fire control radar. Normally there is a search radar that would look for targets and identify them, this would be a unit that can recognize the altitude, speed, distance, possible plane type and any transponder signals. Like most military hardware the TELAR unit has an autonomous capability where the operator can direct the radar with a visual or thermal camera, in this case they aim it at the little blip in the sky with the contour trail coming out of it. They would have no really good info on speed and height, just a thing in the sky their missiles fly at.

 

[antonz]

Old-school Buk command consoles. The TV station is furthest in the back.

I think the problem in this case was the Rebels had the Launcher Vehicle but lacked the command vehicle and the tracker vehicle. They were operating without most of the redundancy systems.

edit: Im now seeing EU has launched 2nd stage of sanctions against Russia