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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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N

n0n44m

Member
n0n44m said:
just realized friend of a brother of a friend was on board

didn't know the person, but recognized the description on some news site from some stuff I heard about that person

small country huh ...
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and I was the one to break the news. Over WhatsApp.

thanks Putin !

(luckily my friend wasnt close to that person either but still ... fuck)
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
Pickman said:
If they were using a stolen Ukrainian Buk, they'd need to disable the IFF system in order to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft, right?
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They quite likely received transponder updates from the Russians. In this case the system would've shown Ukrainian planes as enemy. Civilian planes use a completely different set of frequencies from military, specifically so as not to get confused. The cretins manning the system probably believed it was a Ukrainian plane masquerading as a civilian plane.

EDIT:
antonz said:
I think the problem in this case was the Rebels had the Launcher Vehicle but lacked the command vehicle and the tracker vehicle. They were operating without most of the redundancy systems.
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The TELAR is self-contained. Its acronym comes from Transporter-Erector-LAuncher-Radar. Note the R. It has its own command stations inside. The Snow Drift etc. help increase range, track multiple targets, prioritise targets, but are not actually necessary for the Buk TELAR to function.
 
F

FStop7

Banned
Measley said:
Ah, Fred Thompson on Fox News saying that the president doesn't know what to do against Russia, and another commentator saying that the president is a cautious person by nature, implying that he's afraid of Putin.

Never change Fox News, never change.
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I don't think the president is personally afraid of Putin, but in terms of policymaking we absolutely are afraid of him. Everyone is afraid of him. We let Russia get away with murder, literally. Georgia in 2008, Crimea, now this. Nothing is going to come of it because nobody wants superpowers going toe to toe.
 
LAUGHTREY

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
Zukuu said:
It seems they have "allowed" (what a farce) a few inspectors access to the wreckage. If they had completely blocked off everyone, like I assumed, they would have forced their way in. Not necessarily via military means, but in one way or another. I can promise you that.
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Are you living in a Michael Bay movie or something? As crass as it sounds, a shot down commercial airliner isn't enough to start a war.

It's enough to dickwave about it, but actually doing something? What?

Joey Fox said:
Why are we so afraid to respond militarily? The safety of Americans has been compromised by a foreign military.

This is a perfect excuse to ally with Ukraine and protect it's border.
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HFEdNzr.gif
 
S

SniperHunter

Banned
they are probably too busy clearing the incriminating evidence like the bits of missile, black box, flight data recorder etc. fucking russians man
 
P

Pickman

Member
FStop7 said:
I don't think the president is personally afraid of Putin, but in terms of policymaking we absolutely are afraid of him. Everyone is afraid of him. We let Russia get away with murder, literally. Georgia in 2008, Crimea, now this. Nothing is going to come of it because nobody wants superpowers going toe to toe.
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It's the unfortunate biproduct of nuclear proliferation and allowing a government re-founded by the same men who ran it behind the scenes in a public role to bolster itself with the people. Putin and the rest of his ex-KGB studs are pretty much untouchable.
 
M

Mysterious

Banned
So someone from my school died.

I don't know how to feel about this. I don't know who he is, but since it's so close to me... someone studying, living, breathing in the same place as me... gone in vain.

:(
 
Nikodemos

Nikodemos

Member
MisterFalcon said:
I don't think civilian airliners are sending an IFF signal that identifies it as a friendly to a Russian system, just a code for their flight. If it was so easy every combat jet in the world would broadcast a civilian IFF signal.
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Well, yes, except it's a war crime ('perfidy', IIRC). Any military pilot doing so would be court-martialed and executed if s/he were captured.

MisterFalcon said:
edit: from what I've read the Buk they had was just a TELAR, a Transporter Erector Launcher Air Radar that has a powerful but narrow beam fire control radar. Normally there is a search radar that would look for targets and identify them, this would be a unit that can recognize the altitude, speed, distance, possible plane type and any transponder signals.
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The Buk TELAR has its own IFF transponder detector and launch lock-out system. It would be rather dangerous not to have one, since it can operate independently. And the TV+infrared cameras are good enough to allow an operator discern aircraft type, particularly at 4 p.m.
 
Jme

Jme

Member
The people that want this to escalate at a military level, in this thread, are a welcome comic relief in what would otherwise be a very depressing discussion.
 
V

Vastag

Member
Nickodemos said:
The Buk TELAR has its own IFF transponder detector and launch lock-out system. It would be rather dangerous not to have one, since it can operate independently. And the TV+infrared cameras are good enough to allow an operator discern aircraft type, particularly at 4 p.m.
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Can they identify the plane type using the radar footprint?
 
A

antonz

Member
superdeluxe said:
Apparently pentagon press secatary reported mobile SAM vehicle moved from Russia into E,Ukraine.

da Fuq?
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Russia has been sending a ton of stuff. Yeah a few people in this thread live in fantasy land and deny it but this is all on Russia.

The sad thing about this tragedy is it didn't have to happen. Instead of decisive decision making 5 months ago when it was just "peaceful protesters" with AK-100s etc. everyone dragged their feet as AK-100s became Anti-Tank guns then MANPADS then APCs and Tanks etc etc.

Even today while the world condemns Russia and the rebels you still have Merkel trying to downplay it.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
A military response is absolutely the wrong way to go, I am not sure why anyone would think otherwise. Pure lunacy.

Sanctions with real teeth and cutting our dependence of Russian oil and gas is the answer.
 
S

sangreal

Member
superdeluxe said:
Apparently pentagon press secatary reported mobile SAM vehicle moved from Russia into E,Ukraine.

da Fuq?
Click to expand...


I watched the Pentagon press conference (or most of it, before CNN got bored and cut away) and he specifically said he wouldn't confirm that at this point; he would only make the general point that heavy weaponry was and is being moved from russia to ukraine
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
A military response is absolutely the wrong way to go, I am not sure why anyone would think otherwise. Pure lunacy.

Sanctions with real teeth and cutting our dependence of Russian oil and has is the answer.
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Fox News doesn't care about any of that stuff. It's just macho bullshit at this point. Let's just look really tough in front of a camera that will solve everything.
 
W

Walshicus

Member
Knoxcore said:
Russia f***ed it up now they have to clean it up. You break it, you bought it. They can't expect to destabilize an entire region and expect to go about things all honky dory. This is why I thought this all conflict was a fools errand on Russia's part. It cost money to rebuild. Taking over a region is easy, keeping it whole is another matter.
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The entire crisis has done little but reinforce Russia's ineptitude; a cacophony of failures on Putin's part.
 
T

Tugatrix

Member
gutter_trash said:
to people who want military intervention, ask yourselves one question: ''would you join the armed forces to fight on the ground in Ukraine?''
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No they wouldn't, this is a fight that Ukraine must fight on his own, but that doesn't mean they won't get our support, in terms of equipment and diplomatic support ot isolate Russia from the conflict
 
C

Carcetti

Member
Nicktendo86 said:
A military response is absolutely the wrong way to go, I am not sure why anyone would think otherwise. Pure lunacy.

Sanctions with real teeth and cutting our dependence of Russian oil and gas is the answer.
Click to expand...

Sanctions with teeth would unfortunately require EU and others to have teeth, or at least have the guts to use them in this economy.
 
Nicktendo86

Nicktendo86

Member
Carcetti said:
Sanctions with teeth would unfortunately require EU and others to have teeth, or at least have the guts to use them in this economy.
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It really is shameful. I would have thought the EU was made for situations like this, but has left Ukraine to twist in the wind. Not wanting to provoke Russia is one thing, but abandoning an ally is another.

I have not been a fan of the EU for many reasons, but this whole affair has made me dislike it even more,
 
A

antonz

Member
Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
Is RT still trying to claim this was an assassination attempt on Putin?
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The new Russian narrative is "Russia Detected a Buk system active in the area in Eastern Ukraine. Evil Kyiv did it!"

As Estonia's president put it. It's amazing how quickly Russia went from calling it the Donetsk People's Republic back to Eastern Ukraine
 
K

kess

Member
More than 250 men, women, and children are rotting in a field right now for what exactly at this point? I don't understand how exactly Russia can "recall" Pushilin but be unable to persuade the rebels to allow investigators to do their job.
 
A

antonz

Member
kess said:
More than 250 men, women, and children are rotting in a field right now for what exactly at this point? I don't understand how exactly Russia can "recall" Pushilin but be unable to persuade the rebels to allow investigators to do their job.
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Putin doesn't care about the chechen fighters etc. He will recall his command staff. Strelkov etc and leave the rest to be wiped out by Ukraine to try and appease the desire for blood.
 
TrueGrime

TrueGrime

Member
As a veteran of two iraq and one Afghanistan deployment, I think I'll sit this one out.

What's the next course of action now? Just sanctions? Sanctions with some grit behind them? Part of me hopes that there is some course of action that will be taken and the other part of me is thinking that this will pass without anyone being accountable.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Nickodemos said:
Yeah, fucking amazing. Slimy Vlad will do his damndest not to get any of this shit on him.
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Dude simply wants to be a Tsar. Doesn't care if it is communism or capitalism as long as it has a big enough throne for his ego.

And Russia culturally needs to dump the hypermachismo it loves so much.

It would be a much better place without this individual.
 
petran79

petran79

Banned
DSN2K said:
World should have acted the moment Russia annexed Crimea, was an act of war what amazingly went under the radar.
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Unfortunately the guys in the International Monetary Fund, live in their own little world, not realizing they cant control whole countries to their whim and folly

Ukraine is not Greece, Portugal or Romania

Germany basically ruined the whole of Europe.....
 
eot

eot

Banned
MisterFalcon said:
I don't think civilian airliners are sending an IFF signal that identifies it as a friendly to a Russian system, just a code for their flight. If it was so easy every combat jet in the world would broadcast a civilian IFF signal.
Click to expand...

Considering IFF is used on civilian aircraft to report altitude to ATCs (there are regulations and international standards for that), I'd be surprised if a russian integrated SAM / radar truck didn't have that capability.
 
MisterFalcon

MisterFalcon

Member
The control radar in the Buk launcher is a bit more capable then I had assumed.

The 9S35 Fire Dome provides a limited search and acquisition capability, a tracking capability and CW illumination for terminal guidance of the semi-active homing SAM seekers. It incorporates an IFF interrogator, optical tracker, datalink, and is powered by the TELAR's gas turbine generator.

Operating autonomously, the 9S35 will take 4 seconds to sweep a 120° sector, with an elevation of 6° to 7°. When cued to acquire and track, with will take 2 seconds to sweep a 10° x 7° az/elev solid angle. Average power output in pulsed tracking modes varies between 0.5 and 1 kiloWatt, with CW illumination at 2 kiloWatts. The search and monopulse angle tracking receivers are both rated at a Noise Figure of NF=10 dB. The range error is cited at 175 metres, the angular error at less than 1°. The radar can switch from standby mode to combat operation in twenty seconds.
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http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId926428

Maybe their crash course in missile launching skipped the IFF function.
 
PJV3

PJV3

Member
I was annoyed by Europe poking its nose into Ukraine and annoying Russia, but this is too much. Proper sanctions and kick the Oligarchs out of London.
 
R

Roude Leiw

Member
Nickodemos said:
Skipped using their goddamn eyes to identify the target via TV+IR as well.
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Target engagement zone

aircraft

altitude: 15 meters – 25 kilometers (50 feet - 15.5 miles)
range: 3–42 kilometers (1.9-26 miles)

i doubt they can identify anything which is 40km away with the camera/IR they have there.
 
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