empty vessel
Member
The least of my worries is getting in trouble. I'm fine with your explicating on the perceived implications. I'm less fine with anybody trusting antonz as a poster of reliable information.
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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
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The least of my worries is getting in trouble. I'm fine with your explicating on the perceived implications. I'm less fine with anybody trusting antonz as a poster of reliable information.
speculawyer
Member
Don't flame out right after getting unbanned.
Australian Prime Minister and Foreign Affairs minister giving a press conference ATM.
Not much to tell, although the language is aligned with some other countries in saying the plane was (paraphrasing) "shot down by Russian backed rebels from areas in their control most likely using Russian supplied equipment" and said Russia shouldn't attempt to "wash their hands."
Most talk is on the imperative on getting a resolution to get an impartial investigation and to bring the bodies back home.
(edit) I think so far he's said "Russian backed rebels" 10 times so far. Obviously this is the new phrase for the sound bites.
Not much to tell, although the language is aligned with some other countries in saying the plane was (paraphrasing) "shot down by Russian backed rebels from areas in their control most likely using Russian supplied equipment" and said Russia shouldn't attempt to "wash their hands."
Most talk is on the imperative on getting a resolution to get an impartial investigation and to bring the bodies back home.
(edit) I think so far he's said "Russian backed rebels" 10 times so far. Obviously this is the new phrase for the sound bites.
Safe retrieval of the bodies and a safe investigation scene are paramount. Its going to be a terrible job for emergency personnel at the scene and its going to be even more tragic when the remains get home to families.
The Stuff the Russian media showed was absolutely horrible at the scene.
Security Council will be deadlocked as usual but what makes it even worse is this month Russia has the chair in the Security Council.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Basically the world is hostage to a bunch of drunken morons right now because Putin's punk ass is supporting them with everything they could ever want.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It does not help that Europe does not want to take the economic hit that would come with serious economic sanctions.
It remains to be seen if that general opinion will change with this new incident.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
They need the energy too much. I can understand their dilemma.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Yeah, I'm not saying they are wrong. But it's what, in my opinion, causing the stalemate and inaction at the moment.
ambientric
Banned
World war 2 effectively castrated Western Europe.
Couple this to their dependency on Russian energy supplies.
Lord knows what Russia would need to do elicit a determined response from the eu.
It would really help if Germany had stuck with nuclear. I also heard on Bloomberg that the EU is about to get gas from Libya.
Anyway, this incident seems to be over for now. Hopefully, those responsible will face justice some day.
speculawyer
Member
Maddow slams Russian (state-run) media for being liars:
http://player.theplatform.com/p/2E2eJC/EmbeddedOffSite?guid=n_maddow_ablock_140718
http://player.theplatform.com/p/2E2eJC/EmbeddedOffSite?guid=n_maddow_ablock_140718
Yeah you don't need the UN at all. What you need is cooperation between nations. Germany has been reluctant to put more sanctions out which more or less derails Europe. The US put more sanctions out the day before this incident.
Germany leading the EU charge dictated they would not impose more sanctions and give Russia more time to behave itself. Mind you they said this back in May that Russia had a week to behave or be punished. Then in June. Now in July. Merkel is far too friendly with Putin
speculawyer
Member
I thought they were already banned from G20 due to the Crimea stuff.
They were removed from the G8 temporarily as that's the elite of the elite club. Italy is pushing hard for reinstatement lately though.
US is now saying Ukrainian Jet shot down days before MH17 was attacked from Russia with the same weapon system that shot down MH17
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html
speculawyer
Member
What the fuck are you doing Italy?
Italy and Russia are very close in the oil and gas industry. Decent article how Italy has also been a huge roadblock in tougher sanctions
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ad743cae-0a8a-11e4-be06-00144feabdc0.html#axzz37szyU1BV
Kenshin001
Member
Excluding Russia is just going to harden their resolution more I think. What will it achieve? Not sure why pipsqueak Australia is putting on all this bluster while hiding behind the US's skirts either.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Once again a really well done piece by Maddow.
Far more even-handed than I expected too.
Link?
It's called a united front. I'm not really a fan of "falling in" with big brother, but there should be some unity to Russia's action.
Also, Australia sells a lot of energy, so I'm sure it's in our interest if a major player was taken out with sanctions.
FreedomFighter
Member
So was the phone call intercept of the rebels bragging about shooting down the plan authenticated yet?
Seriously, a lot of people in this thread hate Russia and blame them for all this, but I just want some evidence (which makes me unpopular here, but I don't care). Everyone seems to "know" before the investigation even happened to determine what went down.
Politics GAF is like a new McCarthyism reincarnate. If you don't agree with then general consensus you are ostracized!
Seriously, a lot of people in this thread hate Russia and blame them for all this, but I just want some evidence (which makes me unpopular here, but I don't care). Everyone seems to "know" before the investigation even happened to determine what went down.
Politics GAF is like a new McCarthyism reincarnate. If you don't agree with then general consensus you are ostracized!
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Politics in general is a game of playing victim.
Bornstellar
Member
What a bloody tragedy.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I don't think the mods are taking sides. The fact that you're still here is kind of proof.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
It really doesn't take much to connect the dots. The smoking gun evidence you want will never exist. The people in the phone calls will deny it was them. The rebels have had ample time at the crash to tamper with the scene. They denied they had weapons capable of taking down a plane but forget they posted pictures of it on their website and shot down Ukrainian planes with them just days before.
Keeping in mind the area this happened is without any doubt by anyone rebel controlled territory what would Ukraine be doing there shooting down planes? They can't even get to the crash site.
So either this is an incredibly well done job by the Ukraine government at either covering up their own mistake or even more amazingly setting up the rebels by orchestrating the whole thing....or the most obvious explanation is the right one. Certainly firing warning shots into the air at OSCE observers isn't the best way to go about clearing your name either.
empty vessel
Member
No it isn't.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Not to mention that they seem to have no interest in giving access to the bodies and investigators required so that this can be treated properly. These families may never even get the remains of their relatives back considering how shitty the situation on the ground is.
These rebels have not done a single thing to earn anyone's sympathy. It's not exactly that farfetched that some refer to them as terrorists.
These rebels have not done a single thing to earn anyone's sympathy. It's not exactly that farfetched that some refer to them as terrorists.
it all makes sense now
ambientmystic
Member
What the hell, it seems like this thread has turned into yet another Ukraine v Russia GAF battleground.
I was just browsing through the thread to look for legitimate and documented news updates and it seems like both sides are at it again with the opinion war.
Folk who're banished from the legit news thread vs antonz, round 2. Sigh.
I was just browsing through the thread to look for legitimate and documented news updates and it seems like both sides are at it again with the opinion war.
Folk who're banished from the legit news thread vs antonz, round 2. Sigh.
Necromanti
Member
All the information released (and even excluding that which cannot be verified) that has had any relevance to this tragedy and involved the separatists has been extremely suspicious, so they're either going out of their way to implicate themselves, or someone is running a very effective propaganda campaign.
Couple that with the weird conspiracy theories being propagated from Russia, their Wiki tampering, and other weird happenings, it's not hard at all to see why people might draw the conclusions they have. The evasive reactions and the lies from the separatists in response don't help their case, either, and they have done little to allay that. I mean, I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but they've done little to convince me of their complete noninvolvement. They are either terrible at handling their PR, or someone is exceptionally good at making them look bad.
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
Errr it's a war. They are probably intercepting all communications in the whole area.
Necromanti
Member
For the sake of some balance (since the discussion has been mostly one-sided), has there been any evidence exonerating the separatists from suspicion in this incident, or anything implicating the Ukrainian government? I apologize if my question is out of place.
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Intercepting cell phone calls?
Maybe they aren't taking sides but it seems from reading the Ukraine thread and this one, it is very, very one sided now in favour of Ukraine and makes it very difficult to sift opinion from fact when unsourced material is posted as proof one way or another. Mods need to go back and take a look.
They are doing it from the beginning of the conflict. And all their previous published leaks were confirmed by later events. Thats how we heard Strekov's name first.
UK government statement:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-statement-on-the-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Certainly nothing credible.
HI. BILLY MAYS HERE
Banned
I personally cannot verify this, but a lot of news agencies were tweeting that the separatists claimed responsibility for the attack via social media, then started deleting their messages once it was revealed the plane was civilian and not military.
Plus days before they showed off the missiles used, and also brought down a plane.
So it's no stretch to think they were the ones who did this.
The only other explanation is that Russia or Ukraine fired a missile. Which, when you sit and think about it, is moon landing conspiracy level insane.
Not everything in life is grey. Sometimes shit is black and white. Russia is wrong on Ukraine.
empty vessel
Member
Yes, but I don't think it honestly matters much. The plane should not have been flying there in the first place in light of the putative Ukrainian government's military assault on its own people (especially in light of its use of air attacks on Ukrainians). If I had to bet, I'd place my money on a missile fired by the self-defense forces as what makes most sense from a strictly logical perspective, but I honestly don't know in terms of actual fact. And, regardless, I blame the aggressors who have insisted on war (the US and western Ukrainians, followed closely by the EU), not those trying to defend themselves from military attacks.
Maybe, but I would rather make my own mind up when reading news and current affairs than have people who have already made up theirs paint the picture as they like it and try to steer my thoughts. Opinions from people close to the conflict emotionally are nice and all and add depth and feeling to a situation you won't get anywhere else but I'd rather not face a situation on GAF where the delivery of information is tainted with bias in a thread that is called "news". I can always watch a session of parliament for that or Today Tonight.
So read the news and current affairs. GAF is also a discussion board. That thread was a bit different, but I didn't see too much bias in moderation, reality was a bit biased.
Gemüsepizza
Member
I don't think he will post a link. It's probably something he heard from a dubious twitter user or something like that. How would someone have such new information regarding the FSB? I mean, we are not talking about some stupid rebels here. I asked Antonz before to provide a source for his sometimes quite spectacular claims, but he didn't want to answer. It's quite telling that he can't even provide one of his usual Euromaidan PR links.
What? Where do you see "Russia GAF"? Just because some people here are criticising posts without sources it doesn't make them Pro-Russian. That's the same paranoid logic Antonz is using. When you simply ask him for a source he insults people as Russian trolls who avoid reality or he says you are butthurt and should go to Moscow. Also it seems you are a bit confused about the nature of this thread. This thread here is a general thread about the shot down plane. The thread you have linked is a thread strictly for news. People haven't been "banished" from that thread because they don't agree with Antonz, but because they tried to discuss the news, which doesn't seem to be allowed there.
And that makes it ok to post stupid propaganda?
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