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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors

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So was the phone call intercept of the rebels bragging about shooting down the plan authenticated yet?

Seriously, a lot of people in this thread hate Russia and blame them for all this, but I just want some evidence (which makes me unpopular here, but I don't care). Everyone seems to "know" before the investigation even happened to determine what went down.

Politics GAF is like a new McCarthyism reincarnate. If you don't agree with then general consensus you are ostracized!
Watch the Maddow story that I linked to.

The real issue is that a rag-tag bunch of sepratists would not have the hardware to take down a plane at 32,000 feet. And even if they did have the hardware to do so, they would not know how to use that hardware. There is pretty much no way that anyone but Russian (or USA) taught and equipped people could have taken out that plane. And the USA really hasn't been that directly involved. The Sepratists have taken down at least a couple other planes before this one.
 

Cyan

Banned
Please cut out the interpersonal slapfights about who's crazy and who's a jerk and who ought to be banned.

Thanks.
 

Yagharek

Member
Yes, but I don't think it honestly matters much. The plane should not have been flying there in the first place in light of the putative Ukrainian government's military assault on its own people (especially in light of its use of air attacks on Ukrainians). If I had to bet, I'd place my money on a missile fired by the self-defense forces as what makes most sense from a strictly logical perspective, but I honestly don't know in terms of actual fact. And, regardless, I blame the aggressors who have insisted on war (the US and western Ukrainians, followed closely by the EU), not those trying to defend themselves from military attacks.

Do you really think anyone can hit a plane with a missile from 30,000+ feet below? It's pretty advanced equipment and your average rebel isnt going to be able to pick it up that quick I would imagine.

Add in the factor of who is in control of that region; who has armed them; who has probably been commanding and advising them if not who actually comprised them. It's Russia.
 

freddy

Banned
So read the news and current affairs. GAF is also a discussion board. That thread was a bit different, but I didn't see too much bias in moderation, reality was a bit biased.

Yes and when the discussion is slanted too far one way it ceases being a discussion.
 

Dead Man

Member
Gemüsepizza;121703638 said:
And that makes it ok to post stupid propaganda?

I didn't say that. I didn't say anything that could even be construed as maybe supporting that.

Without examples you are just making noise. This is not really the thread to analyse every single post from another thread, nor is it something that I want to do.

Russia is wrong on Ukraine. That is all I said, and fuck off with saying that implies it is okay to post propaganda. Jesus fucking christ.

Yes and when the discussion is slanted too far one way it ceases being a discussion.

My point is that reality is slanted a certain way. Fox News may like to pretend both sides of a disagreement are equally worthy of discussion, but it is not so.
 

Chuckie

Member
I realise the Dutch people are in a lot of pain but would you be able to tell us a little about what they're thinking?

Are they sad or angry? Blaming Malaysian Airlines, Russia, Ukraine?

Mostly really sad. Shocked that something like this would even happen.
Not blaming anyone yet until it is confirmed who did this.

When that happens I bet we will feel angry and also powerless because I have the feeling the culprits will never be punished.
 

devilhawk

Member
Have to admit that it does seem a little fishy that the Ukrainian government are finding these good quality audio of the rebels communicating with Russia. Have they stated how they are doing this?
We have threads about the NSA passing around nudes of random people that they are not even specifically tapping and you are wondering how another country tapped calls for a specific region during a war?
 

Rukes

The front page still gets no respect
One of my friends posted a long instagram rant on how this was a false flag by the US in order to attack Russia. I should have known this was coming since when I last went to Tokyo she was worried for my life that I would get radiation poisoning (of course before it all floated over to LA anyway).

It's sad that when there are tragedies like this that affect the world, you have to find out which of your friends are secretly crazy nutjobs you have to remove from your life...
 
Do you really think anyone can hit a plane with a missile from 30,000+ feet below? It's pretty advanced equipment and your average rebel isnt going to be able to pick it up that quick I would imagine.

Add in the factor of who is in control of that region; who has armed them; who has probably been commanding and advising them if not who actually comprised them. It's Russia.

Or Ukraine. Or the Novorussians who managed to obtain the equipment from Ukraine. An independent investigation is necessary. But at the end of the day, it's an accident. Nobody intended to kill almost 300 people having nothing to do with the conflict flying over the country. That's why I think it matters less who did it and matters more who is responsible for the conflict and for the plane flying over it.
 

Yagharek

Member
Or Ukraine. Or the Novorussians who managed to obtain the equipment from Ukraine. An independent investigation is necessary. But at the end of the day, it's an accident. Nobody intended to kill almost 300 people having nothing to do with the conflict flying over the country. That's why I don't think it matters less who did it and matters more who is responsible for the conflict and for the plane flying over it.

Source.
 
One of my friends posted a long instagram rant on how this was a false flag by the US in order to attack Russia. I should have known this was coming since when I last went to Tokyo she was worried for my life that I would get radiation poisoning (of course before it all floated over to LA anyway).

It's sad that when there are tragedies like this that affect the world, you have to find out which of your friends are secretly crazy nutjobs you have to remove from your life...
False flag seems to be the mark of pseudo-intellectual. As if thinking one move ahead makes you a genius.
 

Branduil

Member
Yes, but I don't think it honestly matters much. The plane should not have been flying there in the first place in light of the putative Ukrainian government's military assault on its own people (especially in light of its use of air attacks on Ukrainians). If I had to bet, I'd place my money on a missile fired by the self-defense forces as what makes most sense from a strictly logical perspective, but I honestly don't know in terms of actual fact. And, regardless, I blame the aggressors who have insisted on war (the US and western Ukrainians, followed closely by the EU), not those trying to defend themselves from military attacks.

Yeah it really sucks that America forced Russian terrorists to shoot down a commerical airline full of civilians. What evil scheme will we stoop to next.
 

freddy

Banned
So now you are talking about this thread? Yes, one post that I'm pretty sure the poster said was unconfirmed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/who-is-igor-strelkov/5607872

What about a Russian claiming that they shot down a plane and then rescinding that claim once it was found to be a commercial airliner?
I have to bail out to pick up the kids, so I'll leave it go. Apologies.

Well if that Russian was here posting on GAF I'd be calling him out too, but unfortunately I think he's got bigger things on his plate.
 

Dr.Acula

Banned
Yes, but I don't think it honestly matters much. The plane should not have been flying there in the first place in light of the putative Ukrainian government's military assault on its own people (especially in light of its use of air attacks on Ukrainians). If I had to bet, I'd place my money on a missile fired by the self-defense forces as what makes most sense from a strictly logical perspective, but I honestly don't know in terms of actual fact. And, regardless, I blame the aggressors who have insisted on war (the US and western Ukrainians, followed closely by the EU), not those trying to defend themselves from military attacks.

That's mad spin. You've got separatists violently controlling a region within Ukraine, bombing planes, kidnapping journalists, etc. That's terrorism.

I don't get why Yanukovych (a Russian puppet) stole the election in 2004, was then tossed under an internationally monitored vote (by the "evil West"), then ran for election again, then was tossed again this year for doing more Russian puppet shit is seen as legitimate.

Europe and the US are trying to "control" Ukraine? The way they control the Czech Republic? Belarus? Latvia?

Maybe it's Russia that's trying to control Ukraine. Not like they annexed part of it recently...
 
Or Ukraine. Or the Novorussians who managed to obtain the equipment from Ukraine. An independent investigation is necessary. But at the end of the day, it's an accident. Nobody intended to kill almost 300 people having nothing to do with the conflict flying over the country. That's why I think it matters less who did it and matters more who is responsible for the conflict and for the plane flying over it.
And there goes the false-flag claim. :-/

Well, infrared signatures should sort this out. (Missile Launch, missile hit on plane, and plane impact.) But I'm sure you'll just deny the claims of the infrared satellite readings.
 
If only America didn't exist, nothing bad would ever happen to anybody anywhere. It's all America's fault.

It's not about America. It's about power and hegemony. The label ascribed to the entity is irrelevant.

And there goes the false-flag claim. :-/

Well, infrared signatures should sort this out. (Missile Launch, missile hit on plane, and plane impact.) But I'm sure you'll just deny the claims of the infrared satellite readings.

The fuck? What I said is the opposite of a false flag claim. Do you know what a false flag is?
 
We have threads about the NSA passing around nudes of random people that they are not even specifically tapping and you are wondering how another country tapped calls for a specific region during a war?

Sure, but I assumed that the people who probably were responsible for the Nuland recording would be more aware of the danger of unencrypted communication. Not using encrypted communication seems incredibly dumb.
 

Branduil

Member
It's not about America. It's about power and hegemony. The label ascribed to the entity is irrelevant.

I don't know. The label seems to matter an awful lot to you, hence the excuses for Russia's violations of Ukraine's sovereignty and their insane support of violent insurgents which led to this tragedy.
 
Or Ukraine. Or the Novorussians who managed to obtain the equipment from Ukraine. An independent investigation is necessary. But at the end of the day, it's an accident. Nobody intended to kill almost 300 people having nothing to do with the conflict flying over the country. That's why I think it matters less who did it and matters more who is responsible for the conflict and for the plane flying over it.

There is something extremely ironic about you of all people writing off almost 300 civilian deaths as just "shit happens".
 

Dead Man

Member
Or Ukraine. Or the Novorussians who managed to obtain the equipment from Ukraine. An independent investigation is necessary. But at the end of the day, it's an accident. Nobody intended to kill almost 300 people having nothing to do with the conflict flying over the country. That's why I think it matters less who did it and matters more who is responsible for the conflict and for the plane flying over it.

What the fuck?
 
But at the end of the day, it's an accident. Nobody intended to kill almost 300 people having nothing to do with the conflict flying over the country. That's why I think it matters less who did it and matters more who is responsible for the conflict and for the plane flying over it.
I, too, hold the opinion that whomever was responsible probably didn't intend to fire upon a commercial airliner, but I still think that it's important that the party behind the act takes responsibility for what happened (rather than attempt to cover it up, or preventing international and independent investigations from being carried out).

As such, I could agree that it was not intentional, but I feel calling it an accident would undermine the role negligence would have had in bringing down the aircraft. It's hard for me to directly blame the airline when the route was still deemed safe for travel. Sure, they could have gone out of their way to take extra precautions, but their negligence wasn't gross; I don't know if whatever committee that deemed the route safe should be held disproportionally responsible, either.

Ultimately, if the accident hypothesis proves true, there's still the matter of those firing the weapon not taking the adequate measures to identify the aircraft, which they should have had the capability to do, making their error inexcusable.
 
I don't know. The label seems to matter an awful lot to you, hence the excuses for Russia's violations of Ukraine's sovereignty and their insane support of violent insurgents which led to this tragedy.

I think you have some facts wrong. The violent insurgents are in Kiev. Supported by the US, they overthrew an elected government, the base of which was eastern Ukraine (hence the rebellion in the east).

There is something extremely ironic about you of all people writing off almost 300 civilian deaths as just "shit happens".

Not at all. I blame the US, the EU, and their Ukrainian nationalist and oligarch collaborators. They overthrew a democratically elected government, and then waged war against eastern Ukrainians who opposed their violent seizure of power. The violent conflict--insisted upon especially by the US and its puppet government--is the proximate cause of the downed airliner and loss of life.

Yes. It is this:

The only entity with a motive to do that would be Kiev (and the US), in order to blame it on the rebels or Russia.

Ha. First, that was said after you posted your comment. Second, no. That was said to point out that it is unlikely that anybody shot down the plane on purpose.
 

East Lake

Member
xogm3EE.jpg
 

Dead Man

Member
I think you have some facts wrong. The violent insurgents are in Kiev. Supported by the US, they overthrew an elected government, the base of which was eastern Ukraine (hence the rebellion in the east).



Not at all. I blame the US, the EU, and their Ukrainian nationalist and oligarch collaborators. They overthrew a democratically elected government, and then waged war against eastern Ukrainians who opposed their violent seizure of power.

ROFL. It's a weird world you live in. I could almost understand if you would apportion equal blame to Russia, but your failure to do that makes you biases pretty clear.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
I think you have some facts wrong. The violent insurgents are in Kiev. Supported by the US, they overthrew an elected government, the base of which was eastern Ukraine (hence the rebellion in the east).



Not at all. I blame the US, the EU, and their Ukrainian nationalist and oligarch collaborators. They overthrew a democratically elected government, and then waged war against eastern Ukrainians who opposed their violent seizure of power. The violent conflict--chosen especially by the US and its puppet government--is the proximate cause of the downed airliner and loss of life.
You actually believe this nonsense don't you
 
I think you have some facts wrong. The violent insurgents are in Kiev. Supported by the US, they overthrew an elected government, the base of which was eastern Ukraine (hence the rebellion in the east).



Not at all. I blame the US, the EU, and their Ukrainian nationalist and oligarch collaborators. They overthrew a democratically elected government, and then waged war against eastern Ukrainians who opposed their violent seizure of power. The violent conflict--insisted upon especially by the US and its puppet government--is the proximate cause of the downed airliner and loss of life.

So does Russia not exist in the world you live in or something?
 

Joni

Member
I think you have some facts wrong. The violent insurgents are in Kiev. Supported by the US, they overthrew an elected government, the base of which was eastern Ukraine (hence the rebellion in the east).
That is called the right of revolution. If the elective process is deemed to be manipulated or the government not acting in the best interest of its people; the population has the right, some even say the duty to overthrow the government. It is what makes the difference between the people that overthrew the government and then held elections and the people that are waging war against the rest of their country and are planning to circumvent the democratic process by banning everyone that doesn't agree with them on voting. It is an important right. It is the base of the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution and the Arab Spring.
 

Carcetti

Member
There is something extremely ironic about you of all people writing off almost 300 civilian deaths as just "shit happens".

It takes amazing mental gymnastics to reach the idea that if someone arms and trains trigger-happy terrorists and sets them loose, the terrorists or their backers don't carry any responsibility of their actions.

It just proves that for a political ideologue human casualties are just inconvenient numbers.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Jesus christ empty vessel take your conspiracy theories elsewhere. The plane was shot down by pro-russian separatists.
 

devilhawk

Member
Watch the Maddow story that I linked to.

The real issue is that a rag-tag bunch of sepratists would not have the hardware to take down a plane at 32,000 feet. And even if they did have the hardware to do so, they would not know how to use that hardware. There is pretty much no way that anyone but Russian (or USA) taught and equipped people could have taken out that plane. And the USA really hasn't been that directly involved. The Sepratists have taken down at least a couple other planes before this one.
Watched it.

One issue I have is can we not assume that things like the facebook/twitter posts by the rebels have been verified by our government before our UN ambassador referenced them? Maddow certainly didn't believe that we had.
 

Kraftwerk

Member
Posted already?

VICE News Footage of MH17 Aftermath

It's very graphic. NFSW NFSL

The reporter talks to the locals about it and what they heard/saw. Lots of footage of the bodies.

I had to close the video after 2 minutes. Just felt wrong looking at innocent people who had done nothing to deserve this just lay there. I feel sick.
 
There was obviously an intent to kill. You don't accidentally fire a missile at a plane. They may have been mistaken about its identity but that doesn't make it an accident. Ultimately they were only mistaken because they were arrogant, gung-ho and irresponsible. That is not evidence of carelessness or ignorance but blatant aggression.
 

Branduil

Member
I think you have some facts wrong. The violent insurgents are in Kiev. Supported by the US, they overthrew an elected government, the base of which was eastern Ukraine (hence the rebellion in the east).

It's a shame. When you look at the facts, Russia really had no choice but to steal part of Ukraine's land and send material aid to crazy people who shoot down airplanes.
 
Not letting investigators truly investigate is awfully suspicious and I can't help but view the rebels/separatists in anything but a negative light.
 
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