Both pilots were fairly wealthy and money as motive makes no sense anyway considering the risks involved and the fact they would have to abandon all their current assets, family and essentially live a life as hermit even if the audacious plan succeeded. Moreover, if they somehow had advance knowledge of the cargo, hijacking the truck carrying it to the airport would be infinitely more likely to be successful.
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Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 ended in the Southern Indian Ocean
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I wasn't saying the pilots were definitely involved. I'm just saying, we can't assume that a hijacking = terrorist attack. It could be motivated by other things. Money makes people do crazy things (so if you say the pilots wouldn't do it because they were wealthy, it doesn't rule out the hijackers doing it for money vs. a mission). But you make good points. But my issue with all this is, there is nothing that really is logical to me about this. Like every single thing proposed about this hijacking, seems very absurd and not really worth the risk/effort. And yet, we are looking at it being a hijacking now.
I'm still perplexed though, about how specific shutting off each communication device had to be (you would need knowledge of the plane, and access to these things). This doesn't mean the pilots were in on it. But it makes the entire plot even more harder to pull off, certainly.
Regarding the current massive scope of the two proposed corridor searches: don't forget that as time goes on potentially more information from satellites (which may or may not currently be under investigation but is as of yet inconclusive) or other sources of information can surface, narrowing it down further. At this point of time based of currently available data those two corridors are the focus, but it doesn't mean the situation can't change.
Remember there's a shit ton of air traffic going on at any one point and it potentially could take a lot of time to sift through everything to pinpoint any single given aircraft. We're not talking about a neat system like civil ATC where everything broadcasts an identifier. And that's even assuming such data (or the existence/positions of satellites) would be disclosed if it were perceived as a potential threat to national security, whoever the satellites belong to.
Remember there's a shit ton of air traffic going on at any one point and it potentially could take a lot of time to sift through everything to pinpoint any single given aircraft. We're not talking about a neat system like civil ATC where everything broadcasts an identifier. And that's even assuming such data (or the existence/positions of satellites) would be disclosed if it were perceived as a potential threat to national security, whoever the satellites belong to.
No, money as a motive makes no sense at all in this context. Pilots could very well be involved, but the motive would have to be something else.
Ether_Snake
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Err yeah and then do what? Fly away with the truck?
Miggytronz
Member
I asked because my sister inlaw flys P-3s and she never had a sim in any home of hers. Like someone said above she prolly trains so much at work that she not commit more time at home to it.
But if the pilots weren't involved, then why could money not be a motivator for the hijackers. Tell me why that's implausible. If it's not money motivated, then what else could it be? Are we still circling around it being a terrorist attack. If that's the case, then why? What is the point of it?
I find it just as absurd, that they go to the efforts to steal a plane, and make it disappear...for a future terrorist attack? To me that's just as implausible as hijackers using it for smuggling purposes (ie. money).
It's like in IT, I knew a few guys for which it was just a drudge work job, and they would barely touch a computer at home. But a lot of IT people are tech enthusiasts and will program or do Linux stuff as a hobby.
I was with you until here. If you can already fly the plane why would you waste your time trying to hijack a truck.
Probably the timing. Especially the timing on the second transponder being turned off right after the hand off point.
Driving away the truck is certainly easier than hijacking a plane and getting away with it, in particular because that doesn't necessarily force you to live a life of a recluse.
Yeah but it is likely the pilots would have a lot of time to think this through. Even if they were offered millions, being an international criminal and presumably killing 200 plus people is very different than killing some random person and hiding out in Mexico or something. In this scenario the most powerful governments in the world would be interested in getting their hands on these pilots. By the way the pilots would be putting their own life on the line. Why would the pilots be allowed to live after landing the plane? Whoever wanted it would kill all the passengers and the pilots in order to cover their tracks. If they are doing this for money they are extremely stupid.
Alright, so let's say that money isn't a motivator. Let's say this isn't smuggling. This has nothing to do with anything related to goods. So it's purely motivated by personal reasons. The only thing that makes sense, would be terrorism, since that is motivated by a higher personal motivation (ie. religious belief, or fighting a higher cause).
That takes care of the "motivation" aspect. So if the pilots were involved, that overrides what ever life they had (since again, this is a higher calling). But doesn't it still seem like a lot of effort to hijack a plane, make it disappear, have to deal with all those people..and for what?
To use the plane for a later attack? The region/the hijacking itself, really doesn't add up to me. It still seems like a lot of effort for it to be a potential future terrorist attack. I dunno, I just don't think we should assume a hijacking = a terrorist attack. That it's the only reason for something like this to happen.
EDIT: actually, I don't think it's fair to say, terrorism is the ONLY thing that makes sense for "personal motivation". So if it's not related to terrorism, or piracy/smuggling, what other reasons can you think of that would be personally motivated. That would make it worth the risk?
Are you a commercial pilot or a civilian pilot?
Yeah people already said this but why bother with a packed commercial flight when there are tons of ways to snag even commercial jets that would appear much easier. It's not like they're a rarity exactly.
Weird story, but I guess I'm not quite as dumbfounded because I've read through so much aviation history and this is often the case that people are mystified for months or years and then some clue or insight pretty much illuminates the whole thing, and it usually becomes quite instructive actually. Can't opine on the terrorism vs. mechanical failure vs. crew failure vs. combo atm though.
Yeah fair enough. The only reason I find this so perplexing, is that the more we learn stuff about it, the stranger it is. But you are right, we don't have that much info. And a lot of it requires making vast assumptions. For instance, I'm trying to rationalize why all these various motivations are plausible/implausible, and yet, it could have been something more obvious, but without the proper info we assume it implausible.
That's about the only plausible reason to steal a plane, IMO. There are much easier (and safer) ways to steal $250k than spare 777 parts.
A plane is a terrorist goldmine, because with the transponder they could identify themselves as a civilian airliner and fly a WMD right into a major city, completely unimpeded. No risk of radiation being detected at a shipping yard, no missile that they could trace right back to the point of origin. Complete deniability...assuming they bought the nuke on the black market.
The main question going through my head right now is why the engine stopped sending data to the satellite at all?
ACARS was shut off 14 minutes before the transponder was shut off.
Within moments after the transponder was turned off, the plane did a 180 in the other direction.
Ether_Snake
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Pretty obvious if the pilot is the hijacker; he has to hijack a plane he is supposed to fly, then take it to a location. After 9/11, the #1 best positioned person to hijack a plane is the pilot. He's already in the cockpit, he knows how to fly the plane, knows how to turn off the communications, etc.
TrueGrime
Member
I bet. I'd really like to see what kind of 'home made cockpit' they are referring to. I've seen some pretty believable cockpits that you wouldn't know it wasn't the real if the damn thing wasn't in someone's bedroom. Then there's the two screen, single joystick just for fun setup. I don't think anyone would go through the trouble of a cockpit unless you're a die hard enthusiast. I hate to fuel the 'pilot's might have done it' conspiracy but a lot of simulators out there today are spot on. Right down to the frequencies. It would be easy to plan something and train for it in the luxury of your own home.
I don't know, maybe. Seems as if there would be easier ways to do it with more likelihood of success but I'm not a pilot, just a fan of commercial aviation.
It's always interesting for me to watch these stories play out because it really seems to reveal a lot about human nature. Like when you're a kid and have all sorts of terrifying theories about what that noise in the night was. Now that's not to discount any speculation, like I said I have no idea.
If the pilots did this then someone convinced them to undergo something quite dangerous and life altering. They either convinced them to give up their own lives or were convincing enough to make the pilots believe that they could protect the pilots even against the ire of multiple nations. It had to be someone they knew in Malaysia who spoke to them face to face on numerous occasions. Why haven't the authorities combed through all the data on their laptops?
In terms of enthusiasts, this is veering wildly off-topic, but in college there was this class that dealt specifically with game audio which I took. One of the guys in the class didn't play games at all but was really interested in the subject because of his enthusiasm in flight sims and flight sim networks. He showed us a bunch of projects he was involved in where people would literally simulate flying along with simulated dialogue with simulated ATC (all real people, in real time)
I found that really, REALLY interesting. Like I said though, no bearing on current discussion, other than the fact that the scope of enthusiasm for this kind of stuff runs pretty deep.
I found that really, REALLY interesting. Like I said though, no bearing on current discussion, other than the fact that the scope of enthusiasm for this kind of stuff runs pretty deep.
1. The plane crashed
2. The plane landed and the engine was shut off
3. Whoever was in control of the plane, and previously shut off the other stuff, finally figured out how to disable the engine from sending pings to the satellite.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I've noticed some discussion in this thread about the plane supposedly flying to 45,000 feet, perhaps as a way to induce hypoxia. Earlier in this thread, someone posted a link to a disaster where an engineer, after a repair, set the pressurization system to manual instead of auto. The pilot didn't notice that it was set to manual after takeoff. A slow depressurization resulted, and everyone passed out. The plane crashed into a mountain. My point is, there would be no reason for the plane to ascend to 45,000 feet if the pilots/hijackers were already in control of the pressurization. They could simply set the system to manual, change the parameters, and suffocate everyone in the plane except themselves. Not only that, but rapidly ascending to 45,000 feet followed by a plunge to 20,000 feet seems rather unbelievable unless there was a struggle in the cockpit.
lol, I have the same Saitek yoke
lol, I have the same Saitek yoke
TrueGrime
Member
That's a decent setup. Yoke, throttle, instruments. Even touch screen panels.
Yeah, some mailmen like their jobs so much that sometimes they don't deliver the mail and just stash it in their attic or trunk of their car for a few decades.
Time for me to stop posting then. I clearly don't know enough about terrorist attacks, so I'm talking out my ass. I didn't know stealing a plane, and sitting on it for a future attack is actually something they do, and is worth pulling off something like this for.
It makes sense (I didn't know they could easily re-fly the plane and fool others as being a civilian plane. Thought it would be much harder to pull off). Which is why I thought most terrorist attacks were spontaneous and happens that day (with regards to stealing a plane and using it was a weapon). I think the engine only gave the satellite data (in terms of how long it was flying), but can't tell it where it's located. So the assumption is, the plane must have crashed, or landed by now (if it stopped giving that data). Unless, there is a way to disable that too.
TrueGrime
Member
Already in play. Look up FSX and VATSIM. You have guys that simulate being pilots and then you have guys simulating ATC from around the world. Crazy shit.
It's equivalent to how the news always reports on the gaming habits of people in shoot outs.
My girlfriend's dad is a former F-16 pilot and now flies commercially. He has an amazing flight simulator set up at his home. So I'd say its not out of the ordinary for pilots.
Ravensmash
Member
I know what you're saying but the revelation that a commercial pilot had a simulator to simulate his day job (shock horror) and linking it to something devious is horrible at this stage.
Equivalent to saying that it's suspicious that a mechanic has car websites saved in his bookmarks.
I've noticed some discussion in this thread about the plane supposedly flying to 45,000 feet, perhaps as a way to induce hypoxia. Earlier in this thread, someone posted a link to a disaster where an engineer, after a repair, set the pressurization system to manual instead of auto. The pilot didn't notice that it was set to manual after takeoff. A slow depressurization resulted, and everyone passed out. The plane crashed into a mountain. My point is, there would be no reason for the plane to ascend to 45,000 feet if the pilots/hijackers were already in control of the pressurization. They could simply set the system to manual, change the parameters, and suffocate everyone in the plane except themselves. Not only that, but rapidly ascending to 45,000 feet followed by a plunge to 20,000 feet seems rather unbelievable unless there was a struggle in the cockpit.
lol, I have the same Saitek yoke
Poverty set-up at best.
His claim that this plane could just identify itself as a civilian airliner and fly into a major city completely unimpeded is fiction as the transponder identification contains a unique mode-S ID that would identify the plane as mh370. I suppose it could be possible for someone very knowledgeable to reprogram it, but even then it would be a 777 entering the airspace unscheduled.
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Eh problem with this theory is that why would one hijack a plane to do this when it's a lot easier to target people on the ground? It's more of a risk to hijack a plane for something like this than it is to do so by raiding towns and villages on the ground.
That may be true, but subduing a village as one or two people would be really hard. Gassing a plane would be a really easy way to gain asymmetric power.
doesn't this assume all the kidneys on the plane are healthy, adult kidneys?
There's nothing inherently unsafe about a rapid descent. If the cabin was unpressurized, it may have been that the pilot(s) simply wanted to conserve oxygen. It's worth pointing out that the cockpits are on a separate oxygen system from the rest of the aircraft, so they could conceivably disable it for the passengers (circuit breaker?) while keeping it for themselves. And this oxygen doesn't last long either. Cabin oxygen only lasts ~15 minutes or so. When you're that high and unpressurized, it's important to get back down as quickly as possible.
Does anyone know how long they were at altitude?
Also, that "slow depressurization" example you provided still requires the pilots to take the plane up to a high enough altitude to induce hypoxia. In that example, they thought the plane was correctly pressurized when in fact it was not. I don't believe they could mimic the effects of 40,000 feet at 20,000 feet or something. Given a limited oxygen supply, if the goal is to kill/disable passengers via hypoxia, the higher the pilots take the plane the quicker they can realize that goal.
It really is a bit silly to freak out just because a pilot has a flight sim setup at home.
This might shock you all, but I'm a software developer, and all of the other software devs I know at work are huge PC gamers and built their own PCs like me. Weird coincidence huh?!
Sure
Aesius
Member
That's if all the organs were viable. Seems like a huge risk and hassle for "only" $14 million, and I agree that there are probably much easier ways to get those organs. I mean, human trafficking still exists.
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