What's there to argue about? You aren't here to discuss anything. You're just angry the film didn't fit your superhero movie formula.
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Man of Steel |OT| It's about action.
- Thread starter MisterHero
- Start date
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
95% of the damage also occurred while
Superman was flying to destroy the world machine
Can Crusher
Banned
I'm not angry, I'm critical of a movie that failed to accomplish almost everything it tried to do. I'm critical of a script that didn't know how to balance character development and action.
You're the one who's angry someone is dropping truth bombs on Man of Steel.
Mighty Chin
Banned
Right on that's the greatest Superhero moment every on Film.
That's your stand up and fucking cheer moment. Where was that in MOS?
If you weren't so hostile to anyone who disagrees with you I might believe you.
Maninthemirror
Banned
The biggest Truth bomb is Man of Steel is exactly what most fans wanted and got and what audience wanted and got. There is a reason its 1 day away from being the most successful Hollywood reboot box office wise (259 million today, The Amazing Spider-man final was 262 mill)
Can Crusher
Banned
I haven't been hostile. I've defended my views and debated them with well thought out arguments. Me saying that the action in this movie is depicted like a juvenile fantasy isn't being hostile.
Yet I've come across more than one poster with little interest in debating what the movie does right or wrong and why, and with more interest in making things personal.
Superman is a character that has been around long before any of us posting in this thread was born, and therefore nobody has the right to feel insulted when someone is doing constructive criticism, even if to explain why the movie sucks and why this version of the character sucks. It doesn't belong to none of us, and taking criticism to heart is ridiculous.
You know, when I said Batman was a bigger draw I got a bunch of Superman fans saying otherwise, and how Superman is the biggest and most popular super hero in the world.
This thing will crawl past 600 million worldwide, in a world where Batman movies are making over a billion and super heroes are all the rage. 220 million before marketing, which by the way was over the top I mean trailers and spots and hype over the fucking roof. Yet it's very very possible it won't even be as big as FF 6.
That said, I'm not really debating whether the movie made 600 million because it's a shitty movie or not. I mean ASM did 750 million and is even worse than Man of Steel.
Additionally, in the Smallville fight Supes keeps trying to fly away but gets pulled back by the big Kryptonian, twice.
In other news, I just got back from my 3rd viewing (lol). I really enjoy the movie.
There's one common factor here.
Can Crusher
Banned
Wrong.
Superman takes the fight to a restaurant "full" of people. He goes through an empty field of corn or some shit in his way there. You know, like when levels a Gas Station by plowing Zod through it, after punching him multiple times through an empty grass field or whatever.
Hey what was up with that anyway? Dude just let his mom chillin with the other kryptonians. He was lucky they didn't care for his mom, even though... they cared about Lois. I guess family bonds aren't really a thing in space.
Of course. It's fandom, fans will be fans and some of the more passionate fans tend to take criticism of the things they love to heart. This is not rocket science. But I'm not really a believer that you cannot overcome that barrier, and you can be accepting of what it is and love it for it while at the same time acknowledge its faults and be critical of it.
Healthy debate should come out of that, and we should want to present arguments and explain thought processes that allow the other guy ten thousand miles away to understand where you are coming from.
And if you can't handle that, then tough break. You'll just have to suck it up and be mad at me.
Wrong, actually he fights Faora in the IHOP, and he doesn't throw her there. She throws him there, which is why he's on the floor.
The empty corn is when he is angrily flying Zod, which ends up at the gas station. That one I can justify somewhat though as he is obviously very angry and hitting someone for the first time, without realizing the consequences of his actions. I guess he doesn't realize his own strength in his anger/rage.
And I guess he could hear that his mom wasn't in danger.
D.Lo
Member
What a super-lame addendum 'biggest re-boot'. Beating that turd ASM of all things. Superman is the KING of Superheroes, he will always do well. Superman Returns will have done about the same in the US the end, Inflation and 3D tax considered, and it (despite being a far better film dramatically) had some massive issues both in development and also with its in plot in terms of positioning to the public (Superkid? Reboot or Sequel?). Only just beating Superman Returns is apparently proof it is what the public wants now? Maybe they just want Superman and will take what they can get?
MOS is pretty much exactly like ASM actually, a 'darker grittier' soulless greatest hits re-tread (plus its own additions in a vain attempt to be a 'twist' on the character and be 'more realistic') with great actors, the wrong director and a shit script, that tries really hard to not be like what came before for the character, and started development when everyone thought The Dark Knight was going to be the future of super-movies, before Avengers and Iron Man brought the money right back to the Raimi Spider Man tone.
Indeed, the best part is when the bad guy has already left.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYOYewO_Veg
Can Crusher
Banned
It is a fact that Superman intercepts Faora as she is about to destroy a military air plane, and Faora cannot fly so it is Superman who flies her into the IHOP.
Sure he doesn't throw her there, he simply grabs her mid air and slams her on a restaurant full of people. And this is plain fact.
I don't know, I don't think you can justify that Superman is too angry to know what he's doing and at the same time guess that he was in control to listen if his mom was alive or not, or being hurt or taken as hostage.
And if we play the guessing game this is going to get tricky.
You're not proving me wrong here. You're blaming "fandom" but you can't help but be antagonistic and condescending.
And God knows we need more of those, the campy cartoon tone is simply ridiculous and somewhat emabrassing. Gimme my realistic heroes all time.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
When did Superman become realistic?
Why can't we have both? Movies like The Dark Knight and The Avengers were different in their approach but nailed their own style perfectly.
Yeah, but you can't blame Superman (or MoS especifically) for not being cartoony, or the DC movies, that's their style, some of us appreciate it more, it's fine. You can keep your Iron man comedies, but far, far, far away from our batmans and supermans and stuff.
Realistic=/=Real. It's about creating a world you can relate to. Superman is one of the most relateable super hero if written by the right hands.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Exactly. And unlike Man of Steel, both of those were actually good.
True. Such a shame the right hands did not handle Man of Steel.
Can Crusher
Banned
No, you are being sensitive. You are taking terms like fandom and fans negatively, when they are in fact used at an academic level. There's no need to feel insulted by it, because I'm pretty sure everyone here at gaf is a fan of something, and when that something gets criticized the tendency for many is to take it to heart.
Like you are doing now. Instead of providing any argument of substance, you consistently short change me with brief responses aimed at nothing more than an attempt to invalidate my views with a few key words that hopefully will invalidate my arguments by consequence.
"I don't like what this guy is saying. He's a snob."
"I don't agree with him. He's condescending."
This means nothing. They are just empty words.
Absolutely. Hope it changes for the sequel (if not the screenwriter, his style)
Yeah, that Pa Kent relationship was really relatable and not forced. More movies need this self-serious tone.
D.Lo
Member
If you want realistic heroes, don't watch ones about magic spider bites and aliens who can somehow absorb more nuclear energy from star radiation than is physically possible.
The problem with 'dark gritty realistic superhero movies' (this goes for TDK and especially TDKR too) is that they simply ape the already established crime-drama and/or post-apocalyptic cinematic aesthetics and rely on that for their 'realism'. I dare say if suspending disbelief about super-powers or fictional technology (be it robot suits, mobile phone based sonar-vision or hulk serums), almost everything that has occurred on screen in Marvel movies has been far more realistic than the major events in The Dark Knight Rises. Yet generally people describe Nolan's Batman movies as 'more realistic' purely because of the aesthetic. This indiscriminate acceptance of what is realistic or not based on tonal short-cuts is what studios are relying on these days it seems.
Ha, no. If Anything DKR was the most realistic of the three movies.
??????
I'm not blaming Superman for anything. I'm just saying that not all superhero movies should be done one way, be it serious or cartoony.
Your posts are all the argument I need. You keep telling people what (you believe) they're thinking and it's not the way to actually discuss anything.
Can Crusher
Banned
Then discuss. Explain to me how two super human beings going toe to toe with little regard towards collateral damage is a more mature form of heroism in a movie, than the option where one of those super humans does everything he can to protect and minimize collateral damage.
And provide arguments that show how a movie like Spiderman 2 or The Incredibles is juvenile in comparison to Man of Steel.
Not you lol it's a general "you", like the poster I replied to. You're cool, and I agree with you.
Ah okay, I was like "WTF did I do wrong?" Thanks for clearing that up.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Can you blame him? Even if I 100% agreed with you I'd have to also agree you come off as kind of a dick. It has nothing to do with wanting to (lazily) invalidate your views/argument. It's what one may call a truth bomb, in fact.
Can Crusher
Banned
I think DKR was much less plausible than Batman Begins or Dark Knight. In rises, they take certain leaps of logic that really bring it down.
This is all because I said the action in Man of Steel was juvenile. Think about that, how does that make me a dick? At best, that's a reason for you to not like my opinion. Doesn't make me a dick.
Batman Begins had that scarecrow gas that was awesome (it was) but that with the microwave emitter is a little off hands right now,
TDK is a masterful plan of the joker that depends 100% on luck so it's almost completely implausible.
TDKR had a hostage situation which is totally believable, except for the president leaving the city alone but even then it was somewhat justifiable, they tried sending help, though. Batman didn't have a super gadget aside from the bat plane, which is not as farfetched.
None of the three are the "OMG it could happen TOMORROW" but rises was the less fantastical IMO
The magical leg brace and ultra magical back correcting rope are hilarious tough
Can Crusher
Banned
I don't know. Maybe you're right, it might be a tone thing. But that's how I feel about it.
Hours Left
Member
Just got back. I liked it, but it could of been so much more.
Cavill and Adams were excellent choices, but the script really let them down. Adams was especially affected, she is perfect for Lois, yet they seemed hellbent on not letting her get the chance to really integrate herself into the part, almost as if they wanted her to purposely try to play against her strengths.
Some of the changes to the classic lore worked better than others. I'm glad they went against the grain a bit, but some of the emotion behind certain events was lost because of it.
Overall, I still think it's a solid basis for an upcoming series and expanded universe. They just need to get a script and a director that better serves the world they are trying to create.
Cavill and Adams were excellent choices, but the script really let them down. Adams was especially affected, she is perfect for Lois, yet they seemed hellbent on not letting her get the chance to really integrate herself into the part, almost as if they wanted her to purposely try to play against her strengths.
Some of the changes to the classic lore worked better than others. I'm glad they went against the grain a bit, but some of the emotion behind certain events was lost because of it.
Overall, I still think it's a solid basis for an upcoming series and expanded universe. They just need to get a script and a director that better serves the world they are trying to create.
Future Foundation
Member
Apparently not, considering SM III, IV, and the relatively lukewarm response to Superman Returns. Hell, if we're being fair, Superman Returns (a movie I actually liked) would fit right in with your admonishments of Man of Steel and Amazing Spider-Man: a soulless, re-heated, nostalgia fueled retread that wasted good actors - Spacey is Spacey, and I like Routh and Bosworth, come at me - on a lame script.
The fact that DKR and MoS have both done so well is proof that the movie-going audience has room in their hearts and wallets for both sets of superhero movies. Personally, I like it this way: both companies/studios make movies with separate, but distinctive tones. And you're seriously not going to bash either ASM or MoS for being soulless and laud Superman Returns the Iron Man franchise past the first one. SR was nothing more than a big-budget Donner fan film. IM3, as enjoyable as it is, is the definition of "empty calories", ditto with IM2.
Not. Even. Close.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Batman and spider-man was always bigger in the movie form than Superman even with superman being the first superhero portrayed on the big screen. Yet still Man of Steel is the biggest box office in the modern era for Superman, that tells you enough THIS is the Superman they were waiting for.
Also lets destroy your argument:
1st Superman - 1979 - 1.071 Billion WW box office with inflation followed by 1 OK and 3 DUDS
1st Batman - 1989 - 772 Billion WW box office with inflation followed by 1 OK and 4 DUDS
1st Spider-Man - 1.063 Billion WW box office with Inflation followed by one amazing movie and 1 DUD
Batman and Spider-man original made more than Superman Original set of movies.
1st Superman Reboot - 531 Million and Counting WW
1st Batman Reboot - 446 Million WW box office with Inflation
1st Spider-man Reboot - 762 Million WW box office with Inflation
SO yes. This Man of Still is in line with expectations of all previous reboots that have come before us.
You say the newer Batman movies made more? well guess what, the reboot of Superman is already well ahead of batman begins WITH inflation accounted for
Can Crusher
Banned
No, that just tells me that the marketing for the movie which was just freaking everywhere really worked. The hype for this movie was though the goddamn rough, those trailers had people thinking this was going to be some next level super hero movie.
It really DID look like this movie was going to be the next WB homerun like Batman was, in the sense that we were getting a Superman movie that was going to develop the themes we all love about Superman. Watch the trailers again, they were really selling the idea that this was going to be an emotional journey and at the same time we were going to get Superman involved in big time action at the same time. And that's not we got.
That's why you had people talking about Superman doing a billion, hell you even had people talking about MOS being the biggest box office performer of the year. You had reports of MOS tracking ahead of Iron Man 3!
So the best I can concede to you is that MOS trailers sold the idea that Superman fans (me included) wanted to buy.
Hell how couldn't we? Henry Cavill looked perfect, you got ace actors like Kevin Costner, Russel Crowe, Amy Adams, Diane Lane, Lawrence Fishburne, Michael Shannon.... You got Nolan and Goyer creating the concept and the script, so immediately you associate it with their past successes. A director that has a flair for the visuals (event though MOS didn't end up being particularly good looking), and that seemingly was being reigned in by the other talent involved. Hans Zimmer doing the soundtrack.
And now you got more than your fair share of disappointment, and people talking about how great it is that MOS is going to gross more than 600 million. MOS is a true disappointment in terms of the level of impact it managed to have, and that is simply due to its level of quality.
So no, I don't believe at all that this is the Superman movie people were waiting for. For some people? Sure, and really there's no accounting for taste I guess.
What are you talking about?! I said Batman was a bigger draw. I didn't say Superman was a bigger draw, I got pilled on by a fair share of posters about it before the movie released. What are you arguing?
What exactly are you trying to say? That now what matters is that MOS made more than Begins without 3D tax, with almost 100 million less in production budget, a follow up to Joel Shumacher's butchering of the character? Half the marketing pull?!
Look BB built word of mouth, it was seen as genuinely good movie. And it's that kind of word of mouth that allowed people to be hyped through the roof at TDK because it didn't just look like it was for show, it looked great pre release and people believed it was going to be a great movie, because BB was a great movie. Shit my dad liked BB and he didn't give a fuck about super heroes. That's why Batman joined the billion dollar club.
You say it's inline with expectations, sure revised expectations. Now what matters is that MOS made almost as much money as a terrible movie like ASM. So I mean.... sure the movie made money. Who argued otherwise?!
Choke on the Magic
Banned
I legitimately enjoyed MOS. I could nitpick at some things sure, but I could nitpick at every superhero movie ever made. The movie was entertaining and imo a decent origin movie for superman. I look forward to the directors cut release of this movie and the sequel.
I really hope they do JL in the future too.
I really hope they do JL in the future too.
Maninthemirror
Banned
People who thought this would perform better than Iron Man 3 which is already huge and coming off the contrails of Avengers were wrong. In its own right Man of Steel as a reboot itself is the most successful box office wise.
Please show me that tracking report where Man of Steel was tracking more than 173 million opening? I would like to see this lol
The Max it tracked was 135 Million and was hovering over 80-100 million for months before release. If anything it overperformed on 1st weekend, correction adjustment on 2nd weekend and stabilizing on 3rd weekend
Can Crusher
Banned
Well no shit they were wrong. And no, ASM is by your definition the most successful reboot.
Can't find it, it was about advanced tickets 3 weeks out outpacing those of Iron Man 3. So not exactly tracking ahead in terms of BO estimates.
Everyone in the industry thought WB was low balling MOS, that's a fact.
Now I'm not arguing the movie didn't make money. I'm arguing the movie fell short of it's hype in many ways, and that BO isn't a good indicator of quality. It's like me saying well ASM made more money than MOS so it's a better movie, it's a better reboot, and it has better word of mouth.
Fuck no it isn't. And I think it's a waste of time for you to keep "destroying" my arguments about how MOS didn't match the hype just because it will make over 600 million. Fucking Transformers made over 700 million without 3d tax. Why am I supposed to be impressed that MOS made over 600 million, when many were predicting anywhere between 800 and 1.4. It's not like MOS is going to make over 600 million because it was the feel good movie of the year, it's simply because it was the most hyped movie of the year.
And this is important, MOS was the most hyped movie of the year.
Maninthemirror
Banned
You mean fandango. That is NOT tracking, that is pre-sales. Fandango Presales do not determine tracking. WB had MOS opening at 75 million, that is lowballing, 80-100 million was industry expectations.
Can Crusher
Banned
You're right.
Then it had like, top 5 worst 2nd weekend drop in the Super hero genre. Which supports my argument that MOS's success lays on the shoulders of the pre release hype and huge huge marketing campaign that was a success on selling the movie to the audiences.
AdventureRacing
Member
I'm not sure if it's because my expectations were so lowered after reading peoples opinions about the movie but i ended up really enjoying it. There were some issues with the movie but nothing that stopped me from enjoying it. I'm interested to see how they go forward from this point though.
I enjoyed MOS more but they're on a pretty similar level in terms of just being popcorn flicks.
I enjoyed MOS more but they're on a pretty similar level in terms of just being popcorn flicks.
A city under siege from terrorists is a hell of a lot more plausible premise than a device that vaporizes water without affecting the human body.
I think "relatable" would be a more appropriate descriptor than real or realistic. None of these movies are realistic but they can be made to feel easier to relate to; e.g. The Dark Knight isn't realistic but it's certainly more relatable than, say, Thor.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Overdelivered first weekend
Adjustment correction 2nd weekend
Stabilized 3rd weekend.
By your logic it would have dropped another 60% on 3rd weekend, it didnt.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
And the terrorists have an atomic bomb like device with a handy countdown, and somehow have trapped the entire police force in the sewers.
Mos it is.
"Somehow"
Like it wasn't explained immediately as it happened in the movie.
Also terrorists having a nuclear device isn't plausible? And the timer is just one of those tropes that comes with the territory.