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[Future Foundation]

this is pretty old and his critique was critiqued universally by a lot of folks.

Oh, I didn't know it was older, but I only just saw it yesterday and hadn't seen it discussed here yet.

What were the critiques of Mark Waid's critique? It would be interesting to see some stuff other than the "he hated MoS!!!" comments I had seen.

 

[3N16MA]

Is this the thread you are referring to Can Crusher? IM3 vs. MoS predictions.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Is this the thread you are referring to Can Crusher? IM3 vs. MoS predictions.

I see 6 posts out of 4 pages it will hit IM3 numbers. LOL

 

[Can Crusher]

I see 6 posts out of 4 pages it will hit IM3 numbers. LOL

But they did say it.

You yourself posted a link to a projection for a 130 million weekend. Yet now you are arguing that it over performed which is funny. And you thought this was going to be most successful reboot, yet it's behind ASM.

Also Bobby who is throwing rocks at me thought there was a chance Man of Steel was going to do a 200 million dollar opening weekend based on Iron Man 3 and the hype MOS was riding at the time. Hell Transformers right? Because transformers, which is a smaller franchise than Superman, was used as your example for why MOS could be this huge thing. Bigger franchise with bigger hype = bigger money right?

Raptor said a billion for example WW. I mean people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones, when what I'm saying is that "only" being over 600 million is short of the hype that MOS built pre release.
I'm not saying the movie bombed.

 

[Maninthemirror]

But they did say it.

You yourself posted a link to a projection for a 130 million weekend. Yet now you are arguing that it over performed which is funny. And you thought this was going to be most successful reboot, yet it's behind ASM.

Also Bobby who is throwing rocks at me thought there was a chance Man of Steel was going to do a 200 million dollar opening weekend based on Iron Man 3 and the hype MOS was riding at the time. Hell Transformers right? Because transformers, which is a smaller franchise than Superman, was used as your example for why MOS could be this huge thing. Bigger franchise with bigger hype = bigger money right?

Raptor said a billion for example WW. I mean people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones, when what I'm saying is that "only" being over 600 million is short of the hype.that MOS built pre release.

I'm not saying the movie bombed.

you said Tons of People. that is NOT tons of people. Most people said MoS will not touch IM3 box office. as simple as that.

Oh and after this weekend MoS is the 3rd highest grossing origin Superhero and Comic book movie domestically and WW.

 

[Can Crusher]

you said Tons of People. that is NOT tons of people. Most people said MoS will not touch IM3 box office. as simple as that.

I accept that. Memory hyperbole is a bitch, and I have no problem accepting that. It's what happens when you get 4 or 5 posters saying I'm wrong about Batman being a bigger draw than Superman in a weekend box office thread.

To get back on topic, did the movie live up to your hype?

 

[Maninthemirror]

I accept that. Memory hyperbole is a bitch, and I have no problem accepting that. It's what happens when you get 4 or 5 posters saying I'm wrong about Batman being a bigger draw than Superman in a weekend box office thread.

To get back on topic, did the movie live up to your hype?

The movie lived up to most people's hype or its legs would be killed by now box office wise. if the WOM was as toxic as critics reviews, it would have consistently been around 60% fall every weekend just like Green Lantern

 

[Can Crusher]

The movie lived up to most people's hype or its legs would be killed by now box office wise. if the WOM was as toxic as critics reviews, it would have consistently been around 60% fall every weekend just like Green Lantern

So this is the ceiling then?

You are suggesting that because a movie that was Electra levels of bad... had no hype, bad and weak marketing, a B level character, terrible special effects... that made 50 million opening weekend, is the reason why MOS lived up to most people's hype.

Movie is doing good numbers, but if we adjust inflation Superman 1 did 455 million domestic alone. If the movie was actually a good movie, or even a great one.... this thing would've made a whole lot more. WB first priority should be to get a quality writer to work alongside Goyer, and a new director.

We will see how word of mouth works for the sequel.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Also Bobby who is throwing rocks at me thought there was a chance Man of Steel was going to do a 200 million dollar opening weekend based on Iron Man 3 and the hype MOS was riding at the time. Hell Transformers right? Because transformers, which is a smaller franchise than Superman, was used as your example for why MOS could be this huge thing. Bigger franchise with bigger hype = bigger money right?

Raptor said a billion for example WW. I mean people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones, when what I'm saying is that "only" being over 600 million is short of the hype that MOS built pre release.
I'm not saying the movie bombed.

I later on had clarified that "allowing for a chance" didn't mean I thought it was going to happen. Only that there was a possibility of it, albeit really small. At no point in that thread did I say I believed it would happen, or that it was even PROBABLE. Just possible.

And if your "hype" boils down to Raptor popping off, and me talking about remote possibilities for the sake of playing around with numbers (which is what Box Office is about) then your "hype" isn't very hype at all. It's 1 1/2 people in one messageboard thread.

Raptor and I certainly didn't BUILD a scenario in which the majority of the posters here believed it could or should hit 1 billion dollars.

Of course, you know this. Because it's really obvious.

Oh, I didn't know it was older, but I only just saw it yesterday and hadn't seen it discussed here yet.

It wasn't older. Maninthemirror probably didn't read the link before commenting on it, and assumed you were just linking to Waid's initial review instead of that interview, which was posted on the 6th of July.

 

[cdkee]

I just watched Superman: Doomsday...if people thought MoS had a lot of destruction...damn. This movie was crazy.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There's a couple similarities between Superman: Unbound & Man Of Steel, as well.

I thought Goyer was going to be sampling liberally from Johns' "Secret Origins" but after watching Unbound, it seemed more like he picked off an idea or two from "Brainiac," in fact.

 

[spermatic cord]

Faora on some DBZ super saiyan 3 shit. Stole the show for me. Had multiple orgasms during the Smallville fight.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Goyer specifically said they wrote this film as a standalone, or in other words, without having to imply or rely on a sequel to tell the story they wanted.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think he's right (ish) in that Man of Steel does work as a standalone movie so far as plotting goes. The dramatic arc of the movie IS completed by the end.

But so far as character-work goes, he HAS to know that he basically left a lot of questions about this "Superman" specifically to be addressed in the sequel. He baited a hook, most definitely. There's no way he didn't do it on purpose.

 

[Can Crusher]

I later on had clarified that "allowing for a chance" didn't mean I thought it was going to happen.

Also Bobby who is throwing rocks at me thought there was a chance Man of Steel was going to do a 200 million dollar

That aside... I really have nothing else to say about MOS quality, the way it impacted its numbers WW and how it under delivered against the hype.

I said my peace, we had some good discussion in this thread.

 

[Mario007]

I think he's right (ish) in that Man of Steel does work as a standalone movie so far as plotting goes. The dramatic arc of the movie IS completed by the end.

But so far as character-work goes, he HAS to know that he basically left a lot of questions about this "Superman" specifically to be addressed in the sequel. He baited a hook, most definitely. There's no way he didn't do it on purpose.

He did the same in Batman Begins. The plot is over, Bat has had his revenge and protected Gotham. He basically just became Batman, the protector of the city and then Joker is thrown at him at the end.

In MoS Superman became Superman. He protected earth, exposed himself to the world, save the world and began to work in the Daily Planet as Clark Kent. Now we're eager to see on how he'll do as an actual superhero on earth when not fighting off alien invasions. All this movie needed was Lex Luthor coming in at the end, saying how much Superman cannot be trusted and how he was going to build a new tomorrow and we'd basically have BB in Superman skin.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I said my peace, we had some good discussion in this thread.

Almost the entirety of the good discussion came in spite of your contributions, dude. Such as the example above, where you're purposefully trying to frame my bullshitting about the possibilities of Man of Steel's ceiling as my BELIEVING such a thing could happen - even as I specifically state that I never did in the statement you're quoting. And even then - someone had to go and dig up the thread FOR YOU, as you appeared to not even know that it existed, or that it WAS the thread you were half-assed trying to cite in your throwaway statement.

In MoS Superman became Superman. He protected earth, exposed himself to the world, save the world and began to work in the Daily Planet as Clark Kent. Now we're eager to see on how he'll do as an actual superhero on earth when not fighting off alien invasions. All this movie needed was Lex Luthor coming in at the end, saying how much Superman cannot be trusted and how he was going to build a new tomorrow and we'd basically have BB in Superman skin.

Totally understood, and I've argued something pretty similar somewhere in either this thread or (more likely) the Spoiler thread. But I do think that Goyer/Nolan did a much better job of closing the character arc of Bruce than Goyer/Snyder did with Clark. It really does seem a lot of the unfinished/unsatisfied nature of the negative criticisms can be sourced back to that aspect.

 

[Joel Was Right]

One thing that we haven't seen in the last two Superman movies is him making his presence felt globally. In both films Clark is shown with a concerned expression watching the news of natural disasters or conflicts but he never tackles them even though its arguably the first thing a hero with his abilities would do. Superman is therefore restricted to Metropolis or Smallville.

If there is one thing that would make Superman stand out against the plethora of superpowered characters in the box office, is if he used his stand out abilities to be a global figure. Imagine the trailer for a sequel e.g.

Trailer 1: Superman getting shit done in Africa.
Trailer 2: Superman going to work in the Middle East
Trailer 3: Superman helping against a Tsunami in Asia

 

[Mario007]

Almost the entirety of the good discussion came in spite of your contributions, dude. Such as the example above, where you're purposefully trying to frame my bullshitting about the possibilities of Man of Steel's ceiling as my BELIEVING such a thing could happen - even as I specifically state that I never did in the statement you're quoting. And even then - someone had to go and dig up the thread FOR YOU, as you appeared to not even know that it existed, or that it WAS the thread you were half-assed trying to cite in your throwaway statement.



Totally understood, and I've argued something pretty similar somewhere in either this thread or (more likely) the Spoiler thread. But I do think that Goyer/Nolan did a much better job of closing the character arc of Bruce than Goyer/Snyder did with Clark. It really does seem a lot of the unfinished/unsatisfied nature of the negative criticisms can be sourced back to that aspect.

Ya I agree, I think that's cause the events of BB take place during a couple of days if not weeks, so Batman actually does clean up Gotham, whereas in MoS Superman shows himself and within that day the movie pretty much concludes. I just wanted to point out that Goyer likes to do this sort of thing.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Trailer 1: Superman getting shit done in Africa.
Trailer 2: Superman going to work in the Middle East
Trailer 3: Superman helping against a Tsunami in Asia

I do think it'd be a nice, strong opening if the movie had a Bond-like cold-open that was more like a 5 minute short film featuring Superman doing some Superman stuff. Doesn't necessarily even need to be linked to the main plot, either.

 

[Joel Was Right]

• You could create a brilliant, evocative and emotive story that would appeal to every demographic but the fans would spit it out if they did not have enough fist fights or action.
  
• Or, you could create a 2 hour CGI fest of action and fights with a poor script and story and the fans would adore it.

Which of these two is more likely?

I ask because after reading the comments on the film that address the praises and criticisms, I get the impression the majority have a dude-bro mentality in terms of what they expect from comic book movies and I feel really pretentious thinking that

 

[cdkee]

This is pretty cool commentary by Snyder/Goyer on the ending (spoilers, obviously):
http://www.empireonline.com/features/man-of-steel-secrets/p5

also, I knew it:
http://www.empireonline.com/features/man-of-steel-secrets/p10

and for the discussion above:

Goyer: "We wanted the humans to be integral in the plan. We wanted a two-fold plan and we had to go through some gymnastics in order to pull that off: essentially that Superman has to take care of the World Engine while the other C-17 is flying the pod towards the black zero. He can’t do everything, and we wanted the human beings – whether it be Lois or the military – to be part of the solution.

"Another thing that we would hope to follow up on, which is something they’ve tried do in the comic books, is, ‘What does he do about world hunger?’ or ‘What does he do about genocide in Rwanda?’ For me part of the fun of reinterpreting these characters is saying, ‘What if…?’"

 

[Router]

Related for super-fans
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151485584547344.1073741888.58690437343&type=1

Evil Superman is official and limited.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

"Ya always wanted to fly, Kent! Now's ya chance!"

That's fucking amazing.

 

[Rockman.EXE]

Just rewatched this for the 2nd time...

Spoiler

"Welcome to the planet"

Brilliant

 

[Raptor]

But they did say it.

You yourself posted a link to a projection for a 130 million weekend. Yet now you are arguing that it over performed which is funny. And you thought this was going to be most successful reboot, yet it's behind ASM.

Also Bobby who is throwing rocks at me thought there was a chance Man of Steel was going to do a 200 million dollar opening weekend based on Iron Man 3 and the hype MOS was riding at the time. Hell Transformers right? Because transformers, which is a smaller franchise than Superman, was used as your example for why MOS could be this huge thing. Bigger franchise with bigger hype = bigger money right?

Raptor said a billion for example WW. I mean people with glass houses shouldn't throw stones, when what I'm saying is that "only" being over 600 million is short of the hype that MOS built pre release.
I'm not saying the movie bombed.

Im optimistic, what can I say, I also say Pacific Rim will not bomb and will make tons of money but it doesn't mean anything serious just what I want to happen.



I was sure this would make a billion

 

[Odoul]

It's interesting taking in the reaction of the audience.

I've seen the film four times now.

Noone clapped at the climax of the films action (lot of gasps, some silence).

What got some decent applause at least twice though was the middle of the movie and towards the end.

Spoiler

When Supes explains to the general he'll never be controlled, and crashing the drone in front of him.

 

[Future Foundation]

Related for super-fans
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151485584547344.1073741888.58690437343&type=1

Evil Superman is official and limited.

Oh God, that is insane. Hot Toys does it again.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Iron Giant is a Superhero Movie?

Great scene, heroic definitely. Super heroic? Nah! Hell there's a great heroic scene in Volcano that gives me more feels than that scene.

this has to be a fucking joke. Has to be.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

http://screencrush.com/man-of-steel...tm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_70136

Look! Up on the screen! It’s a bird, it’s a plane, it’s…hey, is that Christopher Reeve in ‘Man of Steel’?

Nobody from the ‘Man of Steel‘ creative team is saying anything yet, but alert viewers have pointed out that for a few fleeting frames, it looks like the face of current Superman Henry Cavill morphs into Reeve’s. It’s extremely subtle, and quick enough to be inconclusive, but it’s also easy to see…something there.

Of course, as Uproxx points out, Cavill and Reeve were both cast as Superman partly because they looked the part, so even though they don’t look exactly alike, neither are they totally dissimilar. It could just be a freaky optical illusion.

On the other hand, ‘Man of Steel’ director Zack Snyder is a meticulous visual stylist, and there’s certainly no shortage of CGI in the movie, which owes a heavy narrative debt to the first couple of ‘Superman’ films Reeve worked on in the ’70s; it seems like it would have been a relatively simple — and sweet — thing to do this as a tribute to the actor, who passed away in 2004 after suffering paralysis following a horse-riding accident in 1995.

Tip of the hat or trick of the eye? We’re still not sure. But either way, it serves as a reminder that for a lot of people, Reeve will always be the definitive cinematic Man of Steel.​

Holy shit.

Holy. Shit.

 

[DaveH]

I'm surprised this moment from Superman: Sacrifice / Infinite Crisis hasn't been mentioned at all in the discussion of Man of Steel.

If I recall correctly, a lot of the conflict between the Trinity came from Wonder Woman's above action, Batman's Brother Eye paranoia, and Superman's disappointment.

 

[popeutlal]

I enjoyed the movie till the first fight scene, then it became a terrible CG mess. I wish they had run out of budget after that fight scene like in World War Z.

And what's with the zoom in effect, that was really overdone. Looks like someone on the effects team recently played Metroid Prime 3 or Mass Effect 3 and loved that effect.

 

[kazebyaka]

I liked the movie. And i don't understand complaining about zoom and shaky cam. The camera in this movie was 99% stable all the time, even in action scenes. Sure some cuts are fast, but it's not camera's fault. Maybe i'll see it on second viewing, but on first i thought that it was pretty much perfectly shot.

 

[Liquidsnake]

If there is a god, I will have this on blu ray in time for turkey day!!!!!!!

 

[siddx]

Finally got to see it. A+ awesome movie, enjoyed it from beginning to end. I am completely mystified by the hate its getting from some people, I don't agree with a single criticism I've read. I suppose some people are never happy with anything.

 

[Mario007]

I actually can't wait for the bluray already. For some reason this is the one superhero movie that resonated with me the most since TDK, despite looking forward to seeing MoS the least from big 4 superhero movies that I was hyping up for myself (Avengers, TDKR, Ironman 3, MoS)

 

[Log4Girlz]

Finally got to see it. A+ awesome movie, enjoyed it from beginning to end. I am completely mystified by the hate its getting from some people, I don't agree with a single criticism I've read. I suppose some people are never happy with anything.

The only real problem with the movie is that its not a very good movie.

 

[artist]

You didn't find anyone saying this could beat Iron Man 3? Please son.

Ironman 3 didnt do 1.4 billion, also drop the "son" attitude. Your argument was on shaky ground to begin with, throwing around immature insults like that isnt going to help you.

That aside... I really have nothing else to say about MOS quality, the way it impacted its numbers WW and how it under delivered against the hype.

So MoS under delivered against the hype because 4 people out of 110k users on this board thought it would beat IM3?

Spoiler

LOL

 

[Mengy]

Why are you all arguing about box office numbers for MoS? I mean really?

It underperformed to what WB expected it to do, but it's made a decent profit and will continue to do so, thus a sequel is assured. What possible reason is there to argue about it now, other than for argument's sake? Which is a ridiculous reason IMHO.

Some people hate it, some like it, and some love it. It's a divisive movie but it's done well numbers wise, you really can't argue that fact at this point.


Now lets get back to fighting over whether or not the movie was better than Returns or not, LOL.

 

[artist]

It underperformed to what WB expected it to do

Can Crusher 2.0

 

[hal9001]

Check out this amazing fan edit of the orginal Superman the movie done in man of steel style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-83zwA1tbJs

 

[Router]

Why are you all arguing about box office numbers for MoS? I mean really?

It underperformed to what WB expected it to do, but it's made a decent profit and will continue to do so, thus a sequel is assured. What possible reason is there to argue about it now, other than for argument's sake? Which is a ridiculous reason IMHO.

Some people hate it, some like it, and some love it. It's a divisive movie but it's done well numbers wise, you really can't argue that fact at this point.


Now lets get back to fighting over whether or not the movie was better than Returns or not, LOL.

I don't think WB has ever said what it expected MoS to make also history is on the side of Returns. Singer was redeemed

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

I don't think WB has ever said what it expected MoS to make also history is on the side of Returns. Singer was redeemed

Redeemed in what way? Despite what people think about MoS, Returns remains a shite film. Also, it had a ridiculous budget of $270 million which was probably wasted on growing corn, and it earned just $391 million worldwide. MoS is set to hit $700 million by the end of its run.

 

[Poona]

Goyer specifically said they wrote this film as a standalone, or in other words, without having to imply or rely on a sequel to tell the story they wanted.

That's a bummer then, as whilst I'm not an expert on Superman I was waiting for the whole movie to see him in his glasses and being somewhat clumsy as Clark Kent but they shoved that in at the last 30 or so seconds effectively saying that I have to wait for the sequel to see the rest of that.

 

[Effect]

That's a bummer then, as whilst I'm not an expert on Superman I was waiting for the whole movie to see him in his glasses and being somewhat clumsy as Clark Kent but they shoved that in at the last 30 or so seconds effectively saying that I have to wait for the sequel to see the rest of that.

The clumsy Clark Kent is something I hope they don't bring back. I've always hated that crap. Almost completely ruined the enjoyment I was having with the Smallville finale when they used it. Make him like the Clark Kent form the animated series and Lois and Clark. Where acted like a normal person that could actually carry on a damn conversation! That clumsy and bumbling Clark isn't even in the comics either I believe. Leave that back with the Donner films.

 

[Router]

Redeemed in what way? Despite what people think about MoS, Returns remains a shite film. Also, it had a ridiculous budget of $270 million which was probably wasted on growing corn, and it earned just $391 million worldwide. MoS is set to hit $700 million by the end of its run.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/superman_returns/

 

[Maninthemirror]

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/superman_returns/

Reviews didnt matter when it didnt make its budget domestically.

 

[Ataraxia]

I haven't seen the movie, but the key action scenes are all over Youtube and they look very CG and a bit confusing sometimes.

Hopefully, the rest of the movie, without the action, is better?

There is no "rest of the movie" as it's ALL action. I got numb watching Superman and Zod slamming each other into bricks and concrete and buildings over and over as if this was supposed to accomplish something. If you are expecting dialgoue and plot development you probably won't like this one.

Of course, I grew up on the original Donner films and will likely never be impressed by the remakes.

 

[Poona]

The clumsy Clark Kent is something I hope they don't bring back. I've always hated that crap. Almost completely ruined the enjoyment I was having with the Smallville finale when they used it. Make him like the Clark Kent form the animated series and Lois and Clark. Where acted like a normal person that could actually carry on a damn conversation! That clumsy and bumbling Clark isn't even in the comics either I believe. Leave that back with the Donner films.

The clumsy Clark isnt in the comics really either? Was it ever? Or was that just a movie thing? Guess ill have to go and pick up Birthright which i keep hearing about and see how he is conveyed there. My only real experience prior to this film was the movies with christopher reeve and brandon routh and then all of smallville.

So I guess he doesn't have to be as clumsy as he was in the previous films, just I'd like to see him spend some of his time with his glasses and then something happens where he has to go and get changed into his superman suit.

 

[JB1981]

I have been thinking about this movie compared to the Raimi Spider-Man movies or the Donner Superman and this movie doesn't have a moral message at all. There is nothing for kids to learn from this movie. It's not a movie for kids at all