Reizo Ryuu
Member
the whole premise of this discussion is retarded, many posters on gaf have wildly varying definitions of the word "woke", and some of them see the woke boogeyman everywhere.
Marvel Studios’ Thunderbolts* | Teaser Trailer | Only In Theaters May 2025
- Thread starter ArtHands
- Start date
StueyDuck
Member
Hey well look if you enjoy this behaviour then more power to you.Me and Deaf wondering how the hell expressing a mild level of annoyance and snark to one individual could have triggered a completely separate individual this much:
I still wanna ask what the real issue is and is everything ok, but that's probably a bit bigger than a marvel thread on gaf...
just if you need to talk to someone please make sure you do... that's all I'll say
DKehoe
Gold Member
Good to know! Hard to beat a good one-syllable insult when it comes to flexibility!
I think that others responses perhaps need to be put in the context of we've now had years of "is it woke?" and that being a big focus for some. Would it have been better if it was just ignored? Sure. When I saw someone asking about the "woke rating" I just moved on because, as I said, I'm really not interested in engaging with that kind of thing. But others might decide to push back because they're sick of those years of it, rather than this being a response to a one-off thing.
But now we're talking about talking about wokeness. So, for myself at least, I'm going to draw a line under it here and hope things can get back onto actually discussing the film. I've got to head out to meet up with some friends anyway. Have a good one.
Regarding the end credits scene:
I like these new Avengers waaaaay more than Sam's, which I assume will include Shang Chi, She Hulk, and Captain Marvel (I didnt see her new movie but I assume she is alive and still has her powers).
I guess I would add in America Chavez since apparently she has been on the Thunderbolt roster before, but they're likely saving her for a gorl powah teamup with Kate Bishop & Ms. Marvel
At any rate I am happy we will see these dorks again in Doomsday. Some are inevitably gonna get killed off but this team had a good movie and a half run
Yeh I definitely think there's more charisma on that side. I also think it's interesting that you've got the two sides scrabbling around for signs of legitimacy. Sam has gotten the copyright on Avengers, The New Avengerz have the tower. It's kinda like some historical emperor or warlord has died and people are desperately trying to grab onto anything they can point to themselves as being the successor. It could be interesting to see how that plays out. Presumably, they eventually merge together to take on some bigger threat.
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Doom85
Member
I'm doing great, this whole conversation I was laughing at your drama while I was simultaneously vibing doing my Honkai Star Rail dailies while my Spotify plays through, hitting me with chill The Weeknd songs and then moving on to Rihanna and Sabrina Carpenter singing naughty lyrics into my ears.
TMI on that last part? Well, too bad, after all you're the one who freaks out at "policing" what others say here. So you reap what you sow.
Anyway, despite your obvious and weak attempt at gaslighting me, I'm doing just fine. Going to see a promising movie tonight, and your futile attempt to ruin my mood is all too easy to parry.
StueyDuck
Member
There is no one better than just general cussing then south africans, we get inventive. the general aggression that comes from an afrikaan Poes or Fok is just a thing of beauty.
I understand that for sure, and I do think responding normally to someone and saying something like, c'mon it's not woke, or anything is totally fine. It's the 0-100 posts that just get me, like why not just act normal it's so weird.
I made a post to that commenter saying it's not woke myself, at least from what I've heard, i didn't think it was such a heinous thing to do, but according to some on here apparently it is I suppose.
enjoy your time out
If you thought i was gaslighting and trying to ruin your mood then that says a lot. Treating others with decency ruins your moodI'm doing great, this whole conversation I was laughing at your drama while I was simultaneously vibing doing my Honkai Star Rail dailies while my Spotify plays through, hitting me with chill The Weeknd songs and then moving on to Rihanna and Sabrina Carpenter singing naughty lyrics into my ears.
TMI on that last part? Well, too bad, after all you're the one who freaks out at "policing" what others say here. So you reap what you sow.
Anyway, despite your obvious and weak attempt at gaslighting me, I'm doing just fine. Going to see a promising movie tonight, and your futile attempt to ruin my mood is all too easy to parry.
but getting out and seeing friends at a movie is exactly what i think you need to be honest so enjoy.
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Fairly low. Walker is the butt of A LOT of jokes and is fairly consistently shit on by Yelena and Ghost but he is a bit of a buffoon character anyway (with Red Guardian being pure slapstick) so you can sorta look past it. In actual combat the actual powered men hold their own and Yelena actually gets beat by them all (sorta). But it's Yelenas film so she gets all the attention. This isn't a proper ensemble film by any stretch, so every other character is sacrificed for her (limited) character development.
It's 100% filler. About all it really does is explain the limitations/liabilities of Sentry. Otherwise everything else could have been explained in an intro montage for a film where they actually do something. Sure, you get to know the character a bit but they end up about a quarter step away from where they start. New Avengers is at odds with Sam's Avengers (whoever they are). Why? Valentina has apparently limitless authority, funding, and immunity from reproach...why exactly? The New Avengers is a team with half its members being straight outta Russia, another responsible for almost (figuratively) nuking New York, another I guess has a Green Card, and the last one is straight up recruited from the enemy previously responsible for almost destroying America. It's ludicrous, but that's comics.
It's an interesting character piece and maybe in hindsight a few years from now there would have been lots of foreshadowing to raise it up, but as it is, its about as pointless as Captain Marvel in actually feeding the grand Marvel narrative. Given how bloated Doomsday is gonna be I've a hard time thinking we are gonna see much of New Avengers in it at all, much less anything referencing stuff from Thunderbolts. You can watch it once, check the box for how this misfit team formed, and then never watch it again.
GateofD
Member
Watched it, liked it. Had low expectations but was entertained. I think mostly because I had no idea what was going to happen, so I was interested. Where in Captain Falcon, the whole movie was spoiled in the trailer.
Acting was fine. Yelena was meh in Hawkeye, but she carried this one well. I'm very looking forward to F4 in just a few months if they can ride this wave.
Good fisticuffs. Really like US Agent Walker in this too.
I find it very interesting that they gave this movie the marvel studios crawl, and didn't give one to New World Order. What did they know?
I agree with the credits sequence.
Yea good team but lol
8/10 for me
Acting was fine. Yelena was meh in Hawkeye, but she carried this one well. I'm very looking forward to F4 in just a few months if they can ride this wave.
Good fisticuffs. Really like US Agent Walker in this too.
I find it very interesting that they gave this movie the marvel studios crawl, and didn't give one to New World Order. What did they know?
I agree with the credits sequence.
Yea good team but lol
"Huh?" "Not my avengers"
8/10 for me
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NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Biggest Trails Stan
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I really liked it. Saw it with my big brother and we both enjoyed it.
Great stuff:
-Bob, Yelena, Bucky, US Agent, fight scenes, story, old Stark tower, suspense
Ok stuff:
-Val, Ghost, Taskmaster, Val's assistant Mel
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
Got back from it just now. I liked it.
Wasn't perfect but they handled it pretty well. Worth a watch if you are on the fence and certainly worth a stream when it's out.
Wasn't perfect but they handled it pretty well. Worth a watch if you are on the fence and certainly worth a stream when it's out.
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
That's interesting. I found Bucky to be nearly useless in the movie. I thought ghost was better as she was at least a bit different.
Walker was really good actually and Red Guardian was great in nearly every scene. Florence Pugh was good too.
They stayed relatively close to the Sentry and Void stories from the past which I liked too.
MayauMiao
Member
Nothing wrong asking how much of wokeness the movie tries to push. I have not seen it myself so I want to hear from gaffers here how much of it is present in the plot. I even avoid reading the reviews in case its legitimately good.
I don't want to see Quantumania level of trash agenda with garbage writing.
March Climber
Member
Don't worry guys
Doom85
DeafTourette
Toons
, I speak wokenglish….when someone says something like "is this movie woke?" it's usually a 60 percent chance they simply mean that they don't want a movie with shitty writing. So he was simply asking if this movie had shitty writing.
Some of them consider preachiness to be shitty writing. It's sort of like those old 80s G.I. Joe, Captain Planet, or Transformers cartoons where the character faces the screen/audience to let them know how bad smoking is or about cleaning the environment or saving the whales. They don't like that and they would rather have the cartoon show the bad effects through good writing and not tell it directly/lecture the audience about it.
The other 40 percent are the ones who go a step further and don't want casts of certain color or gender to be main characters, or other such things. However, be careful not to instantly assume, mix the two types up, and bring that up, because people on either percentage tend to get overly defensive about it.
Oh and if that 40 percent mistakenly make claims/do anti-marketing about a movie that was actually good and it ends up suffering further in sales due to this mistake(like Furiosa), that's just considered collateral damage.
Doom85
DeafTourette
Toons
, I speak wokenglish….when someone says something like "is this movie woke?" it's usually a 60 percent chance they simply mean that they don't want a movie with shitty writing. So he was simply asking if this movie had shitty writing. Some of them consider preachiness to be shitty writing. It's sort of like those old 80s G.I. Joe, Captain Planet, or Transformers cartoons where the character faces the screen/audience to let them know how bad smoking is or about cleaning the environment or saving the whales. They don't like that and they would rather have the cartoon show the bad effects through good writing and not tell it directly/lecture the audience about it.
The other 40 percent are the ones who go a step further and don't want casts of certain color or gender to be main characters, or other such things. However, be careful not to instantly assume, mix the two types up, and bring that up, because people on either percentage tend to get overly defensive about it.
Oh and if that 40 percent mistakenly make claims/do anti-marketing about a movie that was actually good and it ends up suffering further in sales due to this mistake(like Furiosa), that's just considered collateral damage.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
So you could have seen OTHER POSTS from posters who despise "woke", which quite a few saw it and posted, and their absence of saying "this is woke" should have told you all you needed to know.
You just wanted to turn this thread into unnecessary culture war crap.
And I fell for the bait.
GateofD
Member
Bucky arm is the jobber, Winter Soldier debuted as a big heel threat, duo'd down ironman with steve in civil war, and now the only avenger left, he's there to make others look good. Spider-man, the wakanda speargirls, Sentry.
I liked how appropriately powered they had Yelena, the weakest one just mainly cause she's the only one that isn't a super soldier really, or an ability like ghost. she probably got beat up the most often.
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt
Biggest Trails Stan
Toons
Member
Wait so a woman saying something mean to a male character goes on the woke meter? Are we serious?
At the beginning of this movie all of these individuals are rogue agents doing hit jobs for an evil nick fury in heels. By the end of it they are the designated avengers team. And have one of the strongest characters in the verse on their ranks.
how exactly are you doing to make that make sense in an intro reel? I mean you're using the term "filler" VERY liberally here. Even the first avengers team in the MCU needed less set up than this post their individual solo films.
Also, val wasn't untouchable. This entire movie happens because she was so desperate to destroy all evidence of her actions that she went all of her agents into a room together and they ended up teaming up.
Csptain marvel was an origin/introduction story.
All of these characters already have had those. Its easy to forget but when the first avengers came out most of the roster had maybe 90 minutes of screen time up to that point save for iron man. Hawkeye had 2 minutes in thor, black widow was in iron man 2 for like a half hour and the rest had one movie.
Yelena has had more than that, red guardian has about 1 movie worth, ava has about 1 movie worth, john walker has a major role in a TV show and bucky night have the most screen time in the entire mcu at this point
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
^^ Glad that the past 1.5 pages is a threesided discussion about the question if Thunderbolts contains woke, only for the original poster who asked that question to reappear when the whole discussion was fought out.
To answer MayauMiao: It is very limited. There is more cringe than Woke in Thunderbolts.
Perhaps every review thread should have a woke-meter so we don't have to ask this question anymore, for those who care.
Anyway:
Review:
Saw the movie yesterday. I believe it scores well because it is compared against the other MCU movies. In which case: Thunderbolts is a surprisingly fresh take on it. Basically Temu Avengers that have to save the world not because they care, but because nobody else will. It had some Deadpool-lite vibes to it.
Story however is very sub-standard, though better than Brave New World. Every character has its own spiel and its played out accordingly.
There is however a rather dark underlining to the premise regarding Sentry, one which isn't really explained well in the movie (But it is visualized) but is rather left up to your own imagination. I thought that was a interesting angle of depth put into it. I didn't really like how that angle ultimately played out (Which is what i felt was pretty cringe) but other than that, it was interesting.
So as a standalone movie, its worth a watch for the psychological fuckery, but not for the story.
So as a MCU movie, its easily one of the better ones because it isn't an all-heroic outrun there. Its just a bunch of useful idiots ganging up together to stop an even bigger idiot, not taking itself too seriously in the process (aside Sentry, ofcourse).
So, solid 7/10.
To answer MayauMiao: It is very limited. There is more cringe than Woke in Thunderbolts.
Perhaps every review thread should have a woke-meter so we don't have to ask this question anymore, for those who care.
Anyway:
Review:
Saw the movie yesterday. I believe it scores well because it is compared against the other MCU movies. In which case: Thunderbolts is a surprisingly fresh take on it. Basically Temu Avengers that have to save the world not because they care, but because nobody else will. It had some Deadpool-lite vibes to it.
Story however is very sub-standard, though better than Brave New World. Every character has its own spiel and its played out accordingly.
There is however a rather dark underlining to the premise regarding Sentry, one which isn't really explained well in the movie (But it is visualized) but is rather left up to your own imagination. I thought that was a interesting angle of depth put into it. I didn't really like how that angle ultimately played out (Which is what i felt was pretty cringe) but other than that, it was interesting.
So as a standalone movie, its worth a watch for the psychological fuckery, but not for the story.
So as a MCU movie, its easily one of the better ones because it isn't an all-heroic outrun there. Its just a bunch of useful idiots ganging up together to stop an even bigger idiot, not taking itself too seriously in the process (aside Sentry, ofcourse).
So, solid 7/10.
No, but every guy being a buffoon and every woman doing a synchronized eye roll is. Sacrificing all your well experienced and powered male heroes at the altar of making Yelena and Ghost seem more capable is cringe at least, woke at worst. But this is yelenas film, so reducing all the other characters to prop her up is kinda expected.
This group of misfits is basically the A-team. The ENTIRE backstory of the a-team is encapsulated in their 90 second intro. Same with these guys. Hell, the only one who isn't just a "good puncher" is ghost and they ignored her almost completely.
She is TOTALLY untouchable. Somehow she remains Director of the CIA, has the authority to appoint a team, largely of non US citizens most likely, to then defend American soil, which is exactly what the CIA CAN NOT do. The Avengers should be an FBI asset if anything, maybe DHS, not some sort of military or cia team. All after gross negligence and rampant criminal activity involving HUNDREDS of people, many of whom where brutally slaughtered, all out in the open with her in attendance such that even the most BASIC level of investigative surveillance could have found it all out. Its just another example of making decidedly mid-level heroes seem capable only because their enemies are astoundingly inept yet ahead of the even more incompetent "authorities".
My point is that all of the 'team building' that occurs in Thunderbolts* could occur in 5 minutes of whatever movie they are supposed to be in next, and very little would have been lost.
And this doesn't even get into how Sentry, who presumably put SEVERAL MILLION POEPLE (whatever the daytime habitation of lower manhattan is) into an extreme trauma reliving experience for....minutes? Hours? Including Spiderman, Daredevil, and whomever else hangs out there, and then get a "oh, my bad" total forgiveness and is then allowed to just hang out. What did the "killswitch" even do to him, can it release Void again, who is in charge of helping him direct his powers, etc.
Or the emerging psychic powers of Ghost, Red Guardian, and Bucky for finding people in the middle of crowds or absolute NOWHERE, seemingly by magic
No doubt we are gonna have to endure a lot of forced drama when the New Avengers meet up with The Avengers to fill time in Doomsday because these films seem incapable of being plot driven anymore and are just scenes strung together to get us to pre-determined set piece battle after set piece battle.
Toons
Member
The movie doesn't do either lmao. Yelena and ghost are two snarky mercenaries, including to each other.
Theres a point where some of yall are just being conditioned to see things when it's just basic characterization that also has plenty of precedence behind it. Bob, despite being victimized by powers beyond his control is clearly shown dignity by the other characters, except John of course who is a well established douchebag. Aleksei is a goofball but hes very clearly competent, and the emotional anchor for Yelena, knowing things about her that even she doesn't know. Winter soldier is played completely straightforward here to, they literally give him an almost comical sunglasses motorcycle action bit that is actually pretty awesome. I can't imagine going through movies like this, trying to weigh out every time a man speaks to a woman or somewhat like it's a competition.
youre talking about abilities, not backstreet. Its the backatories that define the character interaction in this film, and what drives the main narrative, so those can't simply be sidelined. We are shown directly how yelena is feeling, we already know what ava has gone through, we know aleksei is seeking glory he feels he was denied, etc. All of that has to mix and interact with each other for this film to work and you certainly can't do that in 90 seconds. And why would you want to?
Im not gonna pretend the fictionalized bureaucracy of the MCU is in any way realistic, but no she's very clearly not untouchable, that's just incorrect. Like that's a major point of the film is that she's not. She spends the first half of this movie destroying evidence because she's about to go to jail, and had bucky taken the "thunderbolts" in to testify against her that's exactly what would've happened. That was his plan when he captured them all, until he found out about the sentry and shifted gears. that's why the senator was saying they had a rock solid lead to the press.
the avengers have, since their inception in the narrative of the MCU, been a legal anomaly. They just kinda formed themselves in the first movie, intervened in official military operations, performed their own and ignore international borders and operate with relative impunity because the world simply doesn't have any other answer for the threats that appear. Thats pretty much directly stated up until Civil War, Natasha romanoff literally says this in the Capitol during her hearing in winter soldier. And that team also included at least one actual illegal alien with the powers of a god, an unregistered and extremely powerful android, a literal Russian spy and at least one confirmed terrorist asset in Wanda maximoff. Like you just kinda have to go along with this at some point lol.
Except a darn good movie. You could say this about the guardians of the galaxy 1 or several other films that don't immediately tie into an avengers movie(and this one does!). I'll never get this point, were probably not gonna agree on that one.
what are they gonna do, arrest him? He can't be held, he can't be stopped, and he's emotionally vulnerable and easily manipulated. Best bet is to keep the kill switch close by and keep him around people's his comfortable with. They were able to stop the threat so why would you remove him from them? As for void, it's just another persona within him, Bob has to stop the void of his own volition, it's himself.
Narrative tension that is driven by two different groups of characters in a state of conflict is a loose way to describe any superhero plot ever made. Not sure how that's forced. Sam and John already have beef, ava and ant man have beef, yelena and clint have tension... Would it be realistic for them to come together snd just immediately get along? I certainly don't think so.
Idk man it seems like a lot of these are nitpicks or concerns about things that haven't actually happened yet rather than actual critiques of the movie as it is. I'll just the next avengers movie when its out, I've never seen the value in speculated on what I won't like
Doom85
Member
Or the emerging psychic powers of Ghost, Red Guardian, and Bucky for finding people in the middle of crowds or absolute NOWHERE, seemingly by magic
-this is ridiculous, Bucky apprehends all of them single-handedly, Walker holds his own against all the female opponents, and Red Guardian loses only one fight and it's against the individual that EVERYONE can't beat. Walker is mocked by the others because he does come off as an asshole which contradicts his attitude as a "former Cap", whereas Ghost owns up to the sort of person she is. Alexei has always been goofy, but he shows he can still kick ass and is capable of legitimate wisdom
-
Where are you getting that number of deaths? Everyone who was taken into the Void returned after Bob regained control, even no one died in the helicopter crash as they were taken before it crashed. If you're referring to her own soldiers, they were killed by the Thunderbolts in a remote facility (and they definitely didn't kill hundreds) which means Val and her remaining soldiers could hide the bodies easily. Who exactly would be spotting that and reporting it in?
The only cover story they would need to make is why the Thunderbolts crashed into Stark Tower and beat up dozens of her men. But pacing is important for a film, they could easily find a cover story for that, so no need to weigh the film down with over-explanation. Plus, I doubt many would be focusing on that, given that incident was soon followed by a unknown figure in the sky terrorizing all of NYC.
How would the authorities determine Bob was responsible? He was literally covered in shadow and floating well above everyone, no eyewitness was going to give a reliable physical description. Since the post credits scene makes it clear Bob has not used his powers publicly in the 14 months afterwards, even if he does go out as Sentry no one will immediately go, "a guy who can fly and is extremely powerful? It must be that thing from fourteen months ago!" unless Bob loses control again.
The only cover story they would need to make is why the Thunderbolts crashed into Stark Tower and beat up dozens of her men. But pacing is important for a film, they could easily find a cover story for that, so no need to weigh the film down with over-explanation. Plus, I doubt many would be focusing on that, given that incident was soon followed by a unknown figure in the sky terrorizing all of NYC.
How would the authorities determine Bob was responsible? He was literally covered in shadow and floating well above everyone, no eyewitness was going to give a reliable physical description. Since the post credits scene makes it clear Bob has not used his powers publicly in the 14 months afterwards, even if he does go out as Sentry no one will immediately go, "a guy who can fly and is extremely powerful? It must be that thing from fourteen months ago!" unless Bob loses control again.
-wrong, only Bucky and Alexei would be willing to be part of a team at the start of the movie. The movie absolutely needed to push Yelena and especially Walker and Ghost into being open to the idea. Your idea is giving me theatrical cut Justice League idea, let's not repeat that same mistake again, shall we?
Also, heaven forbid a movie focus on being a character study.
-did you watch the movie?
Valentina did this to Bob, what he signed up for did not indicate it could lead to this. He did not willingly do that to all those people, the Void is practically a separate personality for lack of a better word. If you paid attention to the movie, it's abundantly clear Bob was suffering from serious mental health issues, likely bipolar disorder based on how he describes his symptoms.
That's all on Valentina, she chose to give all this power to someone with such a mental state. With Bob now under the care of the New Avengers who clearly understand he should take things as slowly as he needs to, there's no indication he will lose control again. If he does, okay, fair enough, blame the New Avengers, but Valentina deserves the blame for what happened in the movie, blaming the New Avengers and especially Bob is in poor taste.
The kill switch merely knocked him out, which meant whatever little control Bob had left was taken over by the Void. So this just further makes it all Valentina's fault, as the Thunderbolts might have broken through to Bob if they had tried again (notice now Bob could have easily let Alexei die when he threw him out the window but had him return to the building floor).
That's all on Valentina, she chose to give all this power to someone with such a mental state. With Bob now under the care of the New Avengers who clearly understand he should take things as slowly as he needs to, there's no indication he will lose control again. If he does, okay, fair enough, blame the New Avengers, but Valentina deserves the blame for what happened in the movie, blaming the New Avengers and especially Bob is in poor taste.
The kill switch merely knocked him out, which meant whatever little control Bob had left was taken over by the Void. So this just further makes it all Valentina's fault, as the Thunderbolts might have broken through to Bob if they had tried again (notice now Bob could have easily let Alexei die when he threw him out the window but had him return to the building floor).
-
There was debris falling around them, why is it far fetched they were finding people to save? If you're talking before that, they likely had only walked a block or two at most away from each other, doesn't seem that unrealistic they could find each other, it's a MOVIE. Or are we going to nitpick the Rebel escape pod landing randomly on a planet and yet still conveniently within a day's distance of Luke Skywalker in A New Hope?
If you're talking Alexei finding them after they escaped Valentina's trap, IIRC he mentions he did some digging after overhearing Fontaine talk about the facility. So he knew where to go. If you're complaining about him luckily running into them on his way to the facility, again, as I said with my Star Wars example, it's a MOVIE. I mean, we could go the opposite approach and look at The Fifth Element and nitpick the convenient times the hero and villain just barely miss running into one another.
If you're talking Alexei finding them after they escaped Valentina's trap, IIRC he mentions he did some digging after overhearing Fontaine talk about the facility. So he knew where to go. If you're complaining about him luckily running into them on his way to the facility, again, as I said with my Star Wars example, it's a MOVIE. I mean, we could go the opposite approach and look at The Fifth Element and nitpick the convenient times the hero and villain just barely miss running into one another.
-oh no, not character dynamic building! Anything but that!
yet_another_alt
Member
I'm really surprised at how positively Walker is getting received this time around. I thought he was the best thing about FatWS but a lot of people sided with Sam back then. Now I see the same people claiming that he's their Captain America.
March Climber
Member
I saw it today and agree with the 8/10 ratings. It's good.
It can make someone more likable. I can see that it's partly why Bucky stayed on the team in the end, because they're all flawed people with good intentions who wanted a second chance, like he was granted before.
Now we just have to hope that the next writers do a good job in the future conversations between Sam and Bucky about this and their disagreement on it, and Bucky should bring up the hypocrisy of having Natasha and Ronin as past Avengers.
It's because he seemed to finally accept who he is as a flawed person, rather than trying to pretend to be someone better while acting pompous about it. He also let his guard down enough again to be able to trust other people and team up with them.
It can make someone more likable. I can see that it's partly why Bucky stayed on the team in the end, because they're all flawed people with good intentions who wanted a second chance, like he was granted before.
Now we just have to hope that the next writers do a good job in the future conversations between Sam and Bucky about this and their disagreement on it, and Bucky should bring up the hypocrisy of having Natasha and Ronin as past Avengers.
Doom85
Member
Which makes no sense as his attitude doesn't fit one being Cap. Sam deserves the shield because he doesn't have that issue, neither does Bucky but he needed to overcome his past first (and Steve clearly understood at the end of Endgame giving Bucky a burden such as carrying the Cap mantle would be unfair to his friend) which he did in the FatWS show but even here he admits it never fully goes away, which fits into Yelena and Bob's internal struggles as well.
He's a fun character, but he definitely has given no indication he should be leading the Avengers. Yelena, Bucky, and even Alexei are all better leaders in terms of those on this specific team. I would think even fans of Walker can understand that. I mean, in the comics, PUNISHER of all people briefly becomes a Captain America (although all on his own, and definitely not approved by the government or Avengers) but obviously it was very short-lived.
Dragon_Rocks
Member
Movie was kind of okay. I don't think Yelena is the right character to focus on but they do what they do. One thing I hated in this movie was near the end they crash the vehicle in the building and are fighting with the guards etc. before Val tells them to come up. During all this the public out in the street was even a little bit curious about all this. They were all just going their own merry way as if everything was normal. A little later when they all escape and come back out to the street and are discussing (before void appears), the public yet again ignores the bunch of weirdly dressed group of people including one with a metal arm who should now be well known as Winter Soldier/Bucky by everyone who also happens to be a congressman now.
March Climber
Member
In their world, especially in New York, this stuff would be normal. I like that the live action movies finally started showing this because the cartoons were already far beyond the point of bystanders seeing people in costumed gear and going 'eh, another day another hero showing up
'.
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Dragon_Rocks
Member
In their world, especially in New York, this stuff would be normal. I like that the live action movies finally started showing this because the cartoons were already far beyond the point of bystanders seeing people in costumed gear and going 'eh, another day another hero showing up
It will never be normal in any world. There will always be fans and curious people who would want to talk to or see them up close. Its just that director didn't want to spend effort and time. At least people would want to observe any crash/fighting going on near them so that they can take action for their safety.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
The people on the street actually do look at them when they are arguing iirc.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
PPlus what are you going to do? I always liked that in the original Incredible Hulk TV show, no-one really went crazy when the Hulk ran down the street. Because you wouldn't, you would be wary and maybe back off a little, but a giant green man runs down the street you aren't just going to lose it and start screamimg hysterically.In their world, especially in New York, this stuff would be normal. I like that the live action movies finally started showing this because the cartoons were already far beyond the point of bystanders seeing people in costumed gear and going 'eh, another day another hero showing up
March Climber
Member
Do you truly think that these people are not extras and that they weren't directed to do exactly what they did? The only part I can agree with you on is anyone who was near the front of that building when they started fighting in the lobby. Otherwise the people across the street/down the street were reasonably seeing Bucky and a guy dressed like a dollar store Captain America and thought 'oh...another hero fight' and kept walking.
There have literally been scenes in past Marvel movies where a hero enters a bar, store, or some random area and they will say something along the lines of 'yea...I know who you are...so?' I understand some of them even getting annoyed at heroes showing up. And keep in mind, this is New York.
True they do, but not in the gasping 'oh my god it's a hero!' way like
Dragon_Rocks
is wanting them to do, which is something I could see them doing 15 years ago when Iron Man first stepped onto the scene.Again, the cartoons have already reached this point. This is one of those little reasons why I like that Marvel and D.C. have their differences. Marvel heroes are treated like dudes causing a ruckus. D.C. Heroes are instead treated like gods among men.
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Spyxos
Member
So it's real, I thought it was meant more as a joke in the Movie.
DKehoe
Gold Member
I figured it was real and that's what they're getting branded as in-universe. The post-credits scene also seemed to confirm that's the case.
Dragon_Rocks
Member
Do you truly think that these people are not extras and that they weren't directed to do exactly what they did? The only part I can agree with you on is anyone who was near the front of that building when they started fighting in the lobby. Otherwise the people across the street/down the street were reasonably seeing Bucky and a guy dressed like a dollar store Captain America and thought 'oh...another hero fight' and kept walking.
There have literally been scenes in past Marvel movies where a hero enters a bar, store, or some random area and they will say something along the lines of 'yea...I know who you are...so?' I understand some of them even getting annoyed at heroes showing up. And keep in mind, this is New York.
True they do, but not in the gasping 'oh my god it's a hero!' way like
Again, the cartoons have already reached this point. This is one of those little reasons why I like that Marvel and D.C. have their differences. Marvel heroes are treated like dudes causing a ruckus. D.C. Heroes are instead treated like gods among men.
Yeah. Any normal person would be like "Oh another crash and super hero fight in the avengers tower. I will be totally fine and not in any kind of danger so let me just causally mind my business without taking any note or action for my safety."
Not sure why you are trying to justify and defend it when clearly it is a poorly directed sequence that breaks immersion. The Dark knight returns also had the same issue with the bank heist in the beginning.
March Climber
Member
I'm not fully defending it. I'm agreeing you halfway that the people who were actually next to the building should have reacted with more urgency. I simply disagree with the people further away from the incident needing to act with more urgency and I also disagree that people in this Marvel universe, in New York of all places, would suddenly stop everything they're doing if an incident occurs a decent distance away from them.
The Dark Knight returns had a multitude issues that made it a narrative mess. It's better to use another movie as an example.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
GateofD
Member
they're just used to it now.
Jinzo Prime
Gold Member
So the actual name of the movie is "The New Avengers"? Why didn't they just name it that if they were going to change it for the second week anyway?
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HoodWinked
Member
Ya the movie is pretty enjoyable, it's basically a Marvel Suicide Squad. It even has an immediate early death like the Suicide Squad movies.
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Revolutionary
Member
Movie was alright. Certainly a step up from the last few MCU movies, but there were moments that were distractingly sloppy. Best part of the movie is when they just deleted the horrible MCU Taskmaster (probably the worst adaptation of a comic book character to date), but I found it weird how the other members don't dwell on the fact that Girl From Ant-Man 2 just straight up murdered one of them. Can't believe I'm saying this but that's something that Ayer's Suicide Squad actually did better: Waller was the first to kill someone on the team, not one of their own team members. It should have fomented distrust but it's immediately thrown out the window and she suddenly grows a conscience a few minutes later...
Also I can't believe they're still fumbling John Walker's story, years after the show. They said he "murdered an innocent man"? That "innocent man" was a terrorist that murdered his partner, wtf are they talking about? And then later in the movie they're nonchalantly blowing up jeeps filled with men that theoretically match the "innocence" of the aforementioned terrorist, with no remorse. Like I said: very sloppy.
6/10
Also I can't believe they're still fumbling John Walker's story, years after the show. They said he "murdered an innocent man"? That "innocent man" was a terrorist that murdered his partner, wtf are they talking about? And then later in the movie they're nonchalantly blowing up jeeps filled with men that theoretically match the "innocence" of the aforementioned terrorist, with no remorse. Like I said: very sloppy.
6/10
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
That was Karli who killed his partner (by accident). Not the guy Walker beheaded. And as an official representative of The US, he had a duty to arrest him and afford him due process. Not murder him by beheading. Until that moment, Karli was the one who escalated things to killing. Not anyone else in the group. And the guy Walker killed was a Cap fan.
And it was Bucky disabling the jeeps (they're Humvees but whatever) ... All working clandestinely for Val ... I don't think anyone died as they weren't "blown up"
THe whole film makes very little sense if you dwell on it, but that's par for the course for all of these films.
Valentina wants to "clean up" her corp mess, including paid assassins/thieves/mercenaries. So she pulls a Dark Knight to send them all to a deep pit for destruction. But then a week later those very same "liabilities" are now worthy of prime time front page attention and they are all totally cool with it? No explanation of the NYC "incident", no other heroes come in to investigate (maybe keeping Sentry out of the super-max prison alongside Ross was the source of the friction between Bucky and Sam). So now Valentina has endorsed the very group of people with a deep distrust of her and ample evidence of her illegal activities. Val isn't a Waller level government spook, threatening and with good reason. They really misfired on her, IMHO, not to mention EVERY SINGLE MISDEED got filtered through tall slim aide lady, who is visibly on the fence for the entire film, why is Val trusting her? I think they wanted a "nice lady outside, hard inside" vibe but wrote her as if she was Nic Fury levels of "command the room" intimidating and...nope.
I still giggle at the "evil pillow" line. I think Guardian and Bucky saved this film for me. Bucky got cheers every time they let him be "Captain America" like, it's very clear that character has resonance with the audience if they would just give him a proper haircut and a real mission.
GateofD
Member
What 'them?'
none of them knew the others even existed on the payroll. There was no team. And during the fight all 4 were trying to kill eachother. The one that succeeded was the one with actual powers. There was no distrust since they realized valentina was the one that set them up.
For the walker thing, I agree as the viewers, we know the man he killed wasn't exactly innocent, and is a terrorist. killing him in public with caps shield after he was down isn't a good look. But do you pay attention to who said that line? They're outsiders, they know nothing about what actually happened, just what the newspaper headlines said and that was what was publicized in the court of public opinion. And Yelena would probably be on the terrorist's side.