master0fdeception
Banned
It's not. That's why Trump may win this election.
But at that point just admit you operate based on your emotions and feelings rather than basing your opinions on facts.
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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check
- Thread starter keraj37
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It's not. That's why Trump may win this election.
But at that point just admit you operate based on your emotions and feelings rather than basing your opinions on facts.
carlosrox
Banned
Nah it's fucking insane and idiotic. I'll do whatever the fuck I want.
We're at a point now where people are afraid of shouting and singing.
You just can't make up this level of retardation.
master0fdeception
Banned
Wow. It's almost like we're erasing 1000 years of medical knowledge and understanding lmao.
Do whatever you want but you clearly can't keep up with this conversation without blowing up.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Right, so talking in hysterics how we need to re-engineer our lives around isolation in order to to "put lives over the economy" is about "facts", not "emotions and feelings." OK bro.
if you want to talk about facts, the facts are that COVID-19 is basically the flu, with a mortality more tilted towards older people than influenza. If you want to talk about facts, then the risks of COVID-19 for anyone under the age of 60 is basically a cough and a fever for a week, if you even get that. If you want to talk about facts, then our countries took far less severe and less restrictive actions for similar or even more dangerous novel viruses in the past.
To take it one step farther, the facts about COVID-19 show that all the things we are doing now is absolutely bonkers and out of proportion to the actual, quantifiable, objective risk of the virus.
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master0fdeception
Banned
Well...I think it's a different subject whether or not it's "worth it" . This is now a matter of opinion which can be debated.
I just object to people who don't believe facts or come up with weird theories. Or think scientists have political agendas etc.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Right, once you become a "scientist", you instantly become an apolitical being, basically a floating brain above the sky. A guy like Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of Rahm, who is a far left wing activist who hates Trump and advocates the full Fauci agenda, is actually apolitical.
My only point, why I responded to you, is that this idea that lockdowns and masks are a "fact" because "scientists" say so is pure nonsense. Everybody who went against the Gates/Fauci narrative around this was banned from YT, Twitter, Facebook, everything. This is an actual fact, all those sites proudly proclaimed they were going to do that. And an organization no less than the WHO said no more lockdowns, so where does this idea that "scientists" advocate lockdown come from?
The problem is that people like you think that "science" is actually the same thing as politics or religion, where some organization, in this case CNN or Google or Facebook, proclaims a person like Dr. Fauci "science" and treats whatever they say as holy fact.
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master0fdeception
Banned
When I reference scientists I'm just referring to thier agreement that masks should be worn in all public spaces.
Also, the NEJM and Lancet (British) consist of many more people other than Fauci.
diffusionx
Gold Member
It's not agreement though - for example, the epidemiologists in the Swedish government do not advocate masks. So why should I listen to the people who advocate for masks over the ones who don't? I mean, Swedish epidemiologists are trained in the same or similar institutions as the British or American ones. They've had similar careers. They're looking at the same data and going through their reasoning. So why listen to one or the other? It's far from a settled thing or objective fact about masks. It's just that the people who order us around made a decision and that's the one we are supposed to live with, end of story.
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master0fdeception
Banned
I suppose you should listen to the scientists in your country.
I personally think the U.S. has the best doctors in the world and I plan to listen to them over swedish doctors. But you do you. If you live in America and want to trust swedish doctors over our own doctors then go for it.
diffusionx
Gold Member
But that is just taking sides in a debate - it's not science. It is a scientific debate, but that is not the same thing.
To go one step further, do doctors in my country actually advocate for endless mask tyranny and lockdown misery? Or is it just that Facebook banned everybody who didn't advocate for that, and then YoUTube banned any doctor who posted anything critical of masks and lockdowns, and then Twitter did the same thing? Because that is what happened.
It's impossible to declare that "scientists" "support masks" when anyone who doesn't support masks was banned from the conversation.
cryptoadam
Banned
Recent survey found 92% or Americans wear masks. From national geographic.
CDC said 82% of infected wore masks.
Americans are wearing masks. At least thats what the science says.
Know what science says that no one talks about. If your fat your much more fucked. And if your votamin D defecient your fucked.
Notice how Asian countries arent fat fatties mcfatty. 5% vit D in japans elderly population. Maybe just maybe that why japan with their super old population didnt have mass deaths?
Fat countries like UK Italy US Mexico Brazil got lots of deaths.
Lose weight take vitamins take care of yourself and wash hands.
CDC said 82% of infected wore masks.
Americans are wearing masks. At least thats what the science says.
Know what science says that no one talks about. If your fat your much more fucked. And if your votamin D defecient your fucked.
Notice how Asian countries arent fat fatties mcfatty. 5% vit D in japans elderly population. Maybe just maybe that why japan with their super old population didnt have mass deaths?
Fat countries like UK Italy US Mexico Brazil got lots of deaths.
Lose weight take vitamins take care of yourself and wash hands.
pel1300
Member
Then you don't want the ones continuing lock downs - because the health professionals a long time ago have been recommending against continued lock downs.
Also this:
Over 6,000 Scientists Sign 'Anti-Lockdown' Petition
"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies," the petition says.
www.newsweek.com
Big Tech has gotten more lenient about letting whistleblower doctors speak out against excessively tight restrictions - because by now it's too late. Even if Fauci himself came out today and said "Herd immunity is the way!" the masses are so dumbed down that they wouldn't listen. They would conveniently ignore him and just obey the politicians.
Fkn sheep.
master0fdeception
Banned
But you love downplaying the majority. Doctors from around the globe by and large agree on the protective nature of masks. Could there be some uncertainty? Sure. By why is it such a big fucking deal to wear a mask is MOST physicians including our own recommend it?
FunkMiller
Member
If the coronavirus has shown us all one thing, it’s that people really don’t give a fuck about one another. It‘s very easy to just stick on a mask, just in case it could save someone else. Even if their efficacy is not 100% proved, I’m happy to do it, as it’s not a hassle and if there’s a chance it’s effective, I’m happy to do it. Same goes for hand washing, social distancing etc. It won’t be forever, and is of minimal impact. I don’t see why so many people can’t be like that too. Weird and sad.
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Birgitte2004-2
Banned
Because Masks and social distancing aren't at the heart of the complaint. Masks are just a symbol of the real complaint, which is stuff like lockdowns and forcing people to shutter businesses.
And I totally agree with you, people who are comfy and safe from lockdowns really don't give a crap about the people who are losing their jobs, their homes, having severe depression, etc. Nor do they care about how many cancer diagnosis were skipped, or how many people died because they were scared to go to the Emergency Room due to all the fear porn out there about a not-that-deadly virus.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Society should just operate in such a way that people CAN lockdown and quarantine themselves if they want to. If you're pro-lockdown then stay home and the world should do what it can to suit people who choose to stay home. Heck we could even consider you heroes or some shit. But we need to end you being able to decide for the rest of us.
cosmic wizard
Neo Member
If the governments really cared they would tell people about the effectiveness and dosages of certain vitamins.
Since the Covid-19 epidemic started multiple studies have repeatedly shown a link to Vitamin D deficiency yet when Matt Hancock was asked about it he WRONGLY said a British study had found the opposite. Is he ignorant or incompetent?
Since the Covid-19 epidemic started multiple studies have repeatedly shown a link to Vitamin D deficiency yet when Matt Hancock was asked about it he WRONGLY said a British study had found the opposite. Is he ignorant or incompetent?
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Just taking vitamin C and D would mean people don't need vaccines or remdesever or whatever the fuck else they can make some sort of money off of.
DeepBreath87
Banned
This is it. People who are high risk or feel too afraid to go out need to stay in as much as possible. That’s the only acceptable solution. There will be consequences for both choices.
Obviously if you go out in public, you may get sick, maybe really sick, and potentially die.
If you stay in there will be feelings of isolation and possible financial/educational repercussions.
Either way, people need to be free to make their choice and own those consequences. We can not eradicate this virus. That is obvious. We can’t even really control it. We are not God. We can try to slow down the spread and we can try and protect the clearly vulnerable.
FunkMiller
Member
The problem is, lockdown is the only way at the moment to suppress a virus that does kill some people, but lockdown also destroys businesses and livelihoods.
It’s one or the other. Every rational argument being held is about this conflict.
None of it is easy or simple to solve, and we’re stuck with very poor government across the board to deal with it.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
It’s not the government. It’s the nature of the decision. There are no easy answers. You can disagree with some of what the government has done, but there really isn’t a solution that doesn’t involved trade offs.
I would rather live in a country that allows me to shoulder the risks than one that forces me to cower in my basement. People who want to hide away should be free to do so. But those of us who are brave enough to go out shouldn’t be forced to join them.
FunkMiller
Member
But then by the very nature of the virus, you are spreading it potentially to people who you could kill, or cause serious illness to.
So it comes down to one thing: what’s more important? A stranger’s life somewhere, or your temporary liberty?
For me it’s the former.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
You know the lockdowns have killed people, correct? Sweden is currently hitting ZERO excess deaths compared to 2019, no lockdown.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Yes, I know you have left wing bullshit editorials/opinion pieces to tell me why a country currently at 0 excess deaths year over year is worse than the top 8 countries for deaths per capita which all locked down, if you want reality instead of fairytales you're going to need to stop seeking confirmation bias.
FunkMiller
Member
Pointless to continue a conversation with someone who denies facts based on a fatuous political position.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Excess mortality: Deaths from all causes compared to average over previous years
Percentage difference between the reported weekly or monthly deaths in 2020–2024 and the average deaths in the same period in 2015–2019.
ourworldindata.org
Not asking this question to be combative, but where is the notion that the majority of doctors agree masks work? Especially cloth masks that most are wearing? Are there studies out there saying? Is there evidence saying that most doctors believe that? Because this whole mask debate started with facebook videos showing how people coughed wearing a mask versus without one. There were many in the medical community who have questioned the efficacy of masks. It's just that on social media and in most news outlets no one has been allowed to voice an opinion unless it lines up with the approved Fauci narrative.
My other worked for the department of homeland security in a bioterrorism unit for the last decade of her career and part of her job entailed her going into labs to perform analysis on different types of viruses and bacteria that could have been bioterror threats. She has knowledge and experience on this topic and is strongly in the camp that cloth masks don't do anything to stop a virus like this.
Similarly, the narrative on masks was that 4 to 6 weeks of mask wearing will suppress the virus. I listened to my governor and health director at their press conferences multiple times state that. Hasn't happened. We've been masked up for almost 4 months and cases are at all time highs. So why are we still doing this? If this was supposed to work and it hasn't then I believe government officials and these health directors owe me an explanation. I'm not their loyal subject. They are elected officials who answer to their constituents. Instead they have decided to abuse emergency powers. When this all started our governor put our state into a state of emergency for 4 weeks at a time. In August he extended the state of emergency indefinitely. So now we are stuck in this state with our governor having these emergency powers until he decides he is done? I have a HUGE problem with that. Where are the checks and balances? So I'm forced to wear a useless piece of cloth over my face until you decide I don't have to anymore because you have given yourself emergency powers. If anything, my anger and issues with masks stem as much from that as they do whether or not masks themselves actually work.
Me personally? I think cloth masks are worthless. Actual studies on the efficacy of masks seem to point to the same. The World Health Organization says (In fairness I am not sure if they still do) that masks should only be worn by the sick. Fauci has flip flopped on masks and personally I think his explanation for the flip flop is weak at best.
So why do I object to wearing masks? Because by assessing the situation, looking at the data myself, I have drawn the conclusion that masks are worthless and don't actually do what we are being told they do. Especially when you consider actual studies say that if cloth masks were to work they are really only effective if used properly - which includes not touching face, not rewearing after leaving them on your dashboard in the car for weeks on end (like most are doing). Yet I am being forced to wear one if I go out in public. Mix in the fact that some mask rules are just utterly stupid - like the ones around going to a restaurant. So it's too dangerous for me to walk 15 seconds through a restaurant to get a table, but after that I can sit at a table with no mask and all is well? I'm at the table for 99% of my time in a restaurant. Forcing me to wear a mask while I walk to a table isn't about trying to control the virus. It's about the illusion of control and either incompetence or fear.
I am open to the idea that maybe masks, specifically cloth masks that most wear, really do work. But the data and my own assessment combined with existing scientific studies make me doubt yet. So for me, it becomes a big deal that government officials are forcing me to wear a piece of cloth over my face over this narcissitic notion that this is the tool we all need to "get back to normal". I've been around for 38 years and never worn a mask once. Now I am being forced to over a virus that is likely to kill .2% of people it infects. It just doesn't add up to me.
FrostyLemon
Member
Excess mortality: Deaths from all causes compared to average over previous years
Percentage difference between the reported weekly or monthly deaths in 2020–2024 and the average deaths in the same period in 2015–2019.
So what do you think this table is telling you?
Explosive Zombie
Banned
That Sweden has less excess mortality than countries that locked down, there's a point where they have a rise but lockdown countries rised higher and they now sit as low as you can go.
cryptoadam
Banned
I wear a mask but the deal is BS.
Government said wear mask everywhere in July yet here we are in November with lockdown extended another 28 days.
So i thought the deal was wear mask and we can have a bit of normalcy and no lockdown. Nope its BS. Even with masks we still go into lockdown.
You say it wont be forever? Whats your proof? It was supposed to be 15 days to stop the spread. Its 8 months later.
Yes it will be forever as long as people say whats the big deal its just letting the government micro manage your life and tell you what you can and cannot do even in your private home.
FunkMiller
Member
You might be wearing a mask and doing what you’re told, but plenty of people (as evidenced by some comments on this thread) haven’t been. It’s their fault we’re back in lockdown. Simple as. It’ll keep going all the time people don’t help to stop the virus spreading, or until we get a vaccine - which is months off.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Let me take a guess... you think because people in this thread complain about masks and lockdowns that means they're not complying? What's it like living in your head? I will repeat again the top eight countries for deaths per capita had the strictest lockdowns and most had STRICT mask wearing mandates. There is no science that tells you masks or lockdowns are effective, you're becoming like the people who say it was never real communism, IT LITERALLY DOESN'T WORK AND NEVER WILL.
FrostyLemon
Member
But this is not true, because Norway locked down and they didn't have a spike comparable to Sweden or the UK, etc. By Sep 6th the UK was lower on the graph than everyone else, if I had this conversation with you back in September I could use this data to prove that lockdown was a success and excess deaths are below the average.
FunkMiller
Member
Plenty of people not wearing masks and not following social distancing rules. They’re the ones spreading the virus and keeping this bullshit going. Don‘t know what else you want me to say. Humans spread viruses. Some humans ignore rules. Virus keeps spreading
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
I think you're not aware of how coming to a scientific conclusion works, there's a reason I have multiple examples and even then Sweden spends plenty of time with less excess deaths than Norway. The fact that most countries who locked down had much worse excess deaths than Norway suggests there's a variable missing from your equation to explain them doing as well as they did.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Plenty of people not wearing masks and following social distancing rules. They’re the ones spreading the virus and keeping this bullshit going. Don‘t know what else you want me to say. Humans spread viruses. Some humans ignore rules. Virus keeps spreading
CDC found 85% of people who caught COVID obeyed their guidelines, this is their own reporting. You're talking straight out of your ass.
FunkMiller
Member
By all means link me to the evidence and I’ll take a look.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
CDC: 85% of COVID-19 patients report ‘always’ or ‘often’ wearing a mask
Americans are wearing masks. They're just not working.
jordanschachtel.substack.com
Community and Close Contact Exposures Associated with COVID-19 ...
Community and close contact exposures continue to drive the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. CDC and other public health authorities recommend community mitigation strategies ...
www.cdc.gov
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FunkMiller
Member
CDC: 85% of COVID-19 patients report ‘always’ or ‘often’ wearing a mask
Americans are wearing masks. They're just not working.
Community and Close Contact Exposures Associated with COVID-19 ...
Community and close contact exposures continue to drive the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic. CDC and other public health authorities recommend community mitigation strategies ...
Nowhere in the CDC report does it state the claim about the 85%. I’ve just read it. Did you? Or did you just read the blogpost you also linked?
Explosive Zombie
Banned
It requires you to do some basic math
You right now: "ahhh what's 70.6 + 14.4? I just don't know!"
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FunkMiller
Member
Quote direct from CDC report:
“Compared with case-patients, control-participants were more likely to be non-Hispanic White (p<0.01), have a college degree or higher (p<0.01), and report at least one underlying chronic medical condition (p = 0.01) (Table). In the 14 days before illness onset, 71% of case-patients and 74% of control-participants reported always using cloth face coverings or other mask types when in public. Close contact with one or more persons with known COVID-19 was reported by 42% of case-patients compared with 14% of control-participants (p<0.01), and most (51%) close contacts were family members.”
The percentages refer to control participants. Not people with the virus.
Stop just reading blogposts from people you like, and actually go and read the source of the information.
FrostyLemon
Member
Variables indeed, wish you would think about them yourself. Ok well just focus on the nordic countries then, similar culture, similar population density, similar-ish population, Norway Finland and Sweden are similar in size. How do you explain Sweden's spike in deaths and Norway and Denmark's lack of one? How does this show that no lockdown was more successful than a lockdown?
How also do you explain the discrepency between these countries deaths per million?
Sweden: 587
Norway: 52
Finland: 65
Denmark: 125
Or how about cases per million?
Sweden: 12,228
Norway: 3,740
Finland: 2,939
Denmark: 8,156
Maybe you'll say "well Sweden has double the population more people to infect', in which case I'll just say combine two of the other nations together and you'll find that Sweden's approach was still more deadly.
But perhaps their economy was saved? Maybe that's mrore important, well it's a crude measure but let's just have a look at gdp.
Sweden: -8.2%
GDP indicator: Sharp contraction in second quarter 2020
Sweden’s GDP declined by 8.6 percent in the second quarter of 2020, seasonally adjusted and compared with the first quarter. This according to the preliminary compilation of the quarterly national accounts.
www.scb.se
Denmark: -7.4%
Historisk stort fald i BNP
BNP-indikatoren peger på et fald i det sæsonkorrigerede reale BNP på hele 7,4 pct. i andet kvartal sammenlignet med første kvartal.
www.dst.dk
Finland: -3.2%
Statistics Finland - Trend Indicator of Output
www.stat.fi
Norway: -7.4%
National accounts
The national accounts provide an overview of the state and development in the Norwegian economy.
www.ssb.no
So what exactly have Sweden achieved witht their lack of lockdown?
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Variables indeed, wish you would think about them yourself. Ok well just focus on the nordic countries then, similar culture, similar population density, similar-ish population, Norway Finland and Sweden are similar in size. How do you explain Sweden's spike in deaths and Norway and Denmark's lack of one? How does this show that no lockdown was more successful than a lockdown?
How also do you explain the discrepency between these countries deaths per million?
Sweden: 587
Norway: 52
Finland: 65
Denmark: 125
Or how about cases per million?
Sweden: 12,228
Norway: 3,740
Finland: 2,939
Denmark: 8,156
Maybe you'll say "well Sweden has double the population more people to infect', in which case I'll just say combine two of the other nations together and you'll find that Sweden's approach was still more deadly.
But perhaps their economy was saved? Maybe that's mrore important, well it's a crude measure but let's just have a look at gdp.
Sweden: -8.2%
GDP indicator: Sharp contraction in second quarter 2020
Sweden’s GDP declined by 8.6 percent in the second quarter of 2020, seasonally adjusted and compared with the first quarter. This according to the preliminary compilation of the quarterly national accounts.
Denmark: -7.4%
Historisk stort fald i BNP
BNP-indikatoren peger på et fald i det sæsonkorrigerede reale BNP på hele 7,4 pct. i andet kvartal sammenlignet med første kvartal.
Finland: -3.2%
Statistics Finland - Trend Indicator of Output
Norway: -7.4%
National accounts
The national accounts provide an overview of the state and development in the Norwegian economy.www.ssb.no
So what exactly have Sweden achieved witht their lack of lockdown?
So, you're still not acknowledging some things, like how any non-Nordic country fared with excess deaths from locking down. You're praising Denmark despite the majority of data points on the chart I linked you have them with higher excess deaths than Sweden. Finally you're making the crucial mistake of equating GDP to how well an economy is doing and even then you're ignoring what the forecasts actually are, especially when you consider Sweden is going to avoid the second wave most lockdown countries are having.
Swedish GDP Set to Trounce Euro Zone, U.S. and Even Top Nordics
It seems increasingly clear that Sweden will suffer a much milder recession than both the euro zone and the U.S. But a fresh analysis published on Tuesday shows Sweden will fare better even than its Nordic peers this year and next.
www.bloomberg.com
FunkMiller
Member
Tell me something genius, what do you think illness onset means?
My apologies.
Mulligan?
...it’s a very small amount of people though. Not sure it qualifies as a good enough sample size?
Nevertheless, I stand royally corrected on the sample. 70% of people who contracted the virus did indeed say they wore their masks always.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Hey, good on you for admitting it. And I'll admit right now that there's a lot still unknown about coronavirus and my argument is simply that there isn't SCIENTIFIC proof things like lockdowns and masks actually help anything. Even in the best cases it seems to simply delay the inevitable. Unless there's a very effective vaccine I feel like most the world's population will one day catch this and adding onto the excess deaths with lockdowns isn't necessarily the smart move. None of us wants people dying like this, we can admit we're on the same side in that we all want things to get better, we just don't see eye to eye on the idea of how much control we have over stopping this thing. What we can control, though? We can certainly control the fact that people are dying of strokes, heart attacks, entering diabetic comas, being domestically abused more, committing suicide more, etc. because of lockdowns. Without scientific proof lockdowns actually save people from getting COVID (I stress it over and over, top 8 countries for death rate of COVID all had strict lockdowns and I mean STRICT) we're potentially doing more harm than good.
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