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[SerArthurDayne]

On what grounds did we advance further? The Protheans could read memories from matter and built a mass relay. And why would the Catalyst let Shepard do it indeed! That's the problem, what is the reason for letting this cycle do it versus others? Getting the Crucible built doesn't indicate anything because it was gifted to us from previous generations. And the space magic applies to everyone including people and races that aren't responsible at all. There is absolutely no reason to change things now. If you think there is you should be able to explain the child's reasonings. You can't just wave all this away because the child says so when the very notion we're challenging is that it's BS for him to say so!

Que?

 

[LuchaShaq]

Nope, never. A game needs a final boss, especially the ending to the entire trilogy. Especially in a series where previous games had a final boss. It makes no sense. Focus on making that battle the best in the entire series. A conversation can take place after the boss fight.

I am not saying it had to be TIM, anything could have been the final boss. Just have one.

I don't understand why a badly contrived boss battle is needed just because it's a game.

ME2 would have been a better game if it wasn't for the silly reaper terminator.

ME1 would have been better if the final battle didn't make Saren randomly teleport and make him fucking silly instead of scary.

Da2 would have been better if the mage/templar leaders didn't turn into monsters.

As much as I dislike the ending, it would have been so much worse if the illusive man became some comical monster to shoot.

 

[jackdoe]

The only advantage that this cycle had was that the Protheans cut off the Mass Relays controls the Citadel had.

That's why the reapers don't shut down the mass relays, and why the reapers have to go through the conquest of the galaxy in a roundabout way, first sending Sovereign in a stealth mission to check wtf happened, and then they sent harbinger to create a reaper from the race that stopped Sovereign.

? The Protheans affected its ability to become a Mass Relay. They didn't do anything to Mass Relay controls.

Que?

The Conduit.

 

[The Technomancer]

The only advantage that this cycle had was that the Protheans cut off the Mass Relays controls the Citadel had.

That's why the reapers don't shut down the mass relays, and why the reapers have to go through the conquest of the galaxy in a roundabout way, first sending Sovereign in a stealth mission to check wtf happened, and then they sent harbinger to create a reaper from the race that stopped Sovereign.

That...actually makes a fair amount of sense when its summarized like that. Well...sorta, Harbinger's role still doesn't make a lot of sense

 

[littleworm]

Que?

He is referring to the Conduit, which was like a beta test relay, it only worked one way.

 

[ElFly]

It's like finding a lost cache of Rafael paintings and throwing them out into the middle of the ocean as a means of 'preserving' them because nobody will be able to steal or ruin them.



Agreed, but ME2 says the Protheans weren't successfully harvested. This, combined with the Keepers, seemed to be the whole idea behind the Reapers: successfully harvested species are adopted into Reaper form. If a species cannot be churned into a Reaper, it is re-purposed for something else.

So, like, the Reapers harvested the entire Prothean empire, which was the apex of galactic society, and failed to conserve any of them.

Good job Space Capser. Great plan.

Where does it say that the reapers couldn't create a Prothean Reaper? I honestly don't remember this in ME2.


But anyway, it's clear some races don't serve as reaper material. You never see a salarian husk, or volus or elcor or a ton of other races. Maybe that cycle was just bad luck and all the reaper food went bad and they were left with an empire of a unique race they couldn't harvest.

 

[EatChildren]

Thinking about the keepers, Anderson did mention that the keepers most likely recovered a significant portion of Sovereign (at least the parts that Cerberus didn't get a hold of). Given how the Catalyst... Is the Citadel and Reapers at least have the technology to build new ones, I wonder why it just didn't attempt to rebuild Sovereign.

Or alternatively, to put some fuel in the indoctrination theory camp, the Catalyst is really just a revived Sovereign!

The Keepers were 'disabled', so to speak, no longer doing Reaper stuff and instead just keeping the Citadel in working order. But, you know, that probably wouldn't have lasted if Space Casper had noticed and decided otherwise. Or activated the relay himself.

oh look more plot holes wee how fun this is

Where does it say that the reapers couldn't create a Prothean Reaper? I honestly don't remember this in ME2.

Pretty sure EDI mentions it when you discover the human Reaper, theorising that Reapers take the form of whatever species was harvested, and the reason we haven't see a Prothean Reaper is because they failed to successfully convert that species.

But they've probably retconned that.

 

[DTKT]

Thinking about the keepers, Anderson did mention that the keepers most likely recovered a significant portion of Sovereign (at least the parts that Cerberus didn't get a hold of). Given how the Catalyst... Is the Citadel and Reapers at least have the technology to build new ones, I wonder why it just didn't attempt to rebuild Sovereign.

Or alternatively, to put some fuel in the indoctrination theory camp, the Catalyst is really just a revived Sovereign!

Stop fueling the indoc theory.

It's not sane to do so.

 

[Marleyman]

On what grounds did we advance further? The Protheans could read memories from matter and built a mass relay. And why would the Catalyst let Shepard do it indeed! That's the problem, what is the reason for letting this cycle do it versus others? Getting the Crucible built doesn't indicate anything because it was gifted to us from previous generations. And the space magic applies to everyone including people and races that aren't responsible at all. There is absolutely no reason to change things now. If you think there is you should be able to explain the child's reasonings. You can't just wave all this away because the child says so when the very notion we're challenging is that it's BS for him to say so!

It was never finished until this cycle, so our cycle was the beneficiary of countless cycles of work. The Protheans were more advanced obviously when it came to reading memories from just touch yet our cycle achieved something even Jaavik admitted they couldn't; cooperation.

 

[alerus]

Que?

That's what the conduit was in ME1. They built a mass relay.

 

[Zeliard]

It's never really explained. EDI implies that Reapers take on the physical form of the successfully harvested species, hence why the human Reaper looks the way it does. It isn't confirmed whether or not this 'look' is cased in the cuttlefish exterior, or if the cuttlefish design is also from a harvested species.

Does seem more unlikely it would be the latter since the Reapers have been around for a long time and have harvested presumably tons of different races.

I can buy the whole cuttlefish shell thing as some sort of efficient, homogeneous design that allows for superior movement through space or whatever. It would be sort of hilarious to see a Reaper humanoid flying around in space like Superman.

 

[littleworm]

Also, how in the hell did nobody from any civilization bother to inspect the entire citadel?

 

[SerArthurDayne]

What is the fucking deal with Harbinger?

Sovereign was always here.

Is Harbinger like the Slavemaster, flying with the fleet? He just assumes direct control from millions of light years away? If that is the case, why did Sovereign need to stay? Why not just leave the Collector's as a backup plan?

Or why didn't Sovereign enlist the Collector's Big ass ships with Reaper lasers to attack the Citadel?

That's what the conduit was in ME1. They built a mass relay.

Quite right, sirrah!

 

[jackdoe]

The Keepers were 'disabled', so to speak, no longer doing Reaper stuff and instead just keeping the Citadel in working order. But, you know, that probably wouldn't have lasted if Space Casper had noticed and decided otherwise. Or activated the relay himself.

oh look more plot holes wee how fun this is

Why leave Sovereign behind if Casper is watching?

 

[MiamiWesker]

The Protheans saving our asses. Mass Effect 1 only takes place because the Keepers were broken. The Protheans almost completed the Crucible despite having lost the war on day 1. There is nothing special about what we did, we just got luck based on the previous cycle's work. Fix that problem and restore the cycles.

Again, I think this is irrelevant. I was simply arguing that space magic being some "gift" was bullshit, and even if it was a "gift" we certainly didn't do anything to earn it or that made us any different from any other organics.




Nope. It doesn't do anything until Starkid tells us what to do. And if you shoot bullets through his head for five or ten minutes the Reapers blow up the Crucible.

Well the AI isnt really there, it is a hologram it cant stop Shepard. Shepard was going to activate something while he was there, even if he has to push every damn button. The AI simply guided him and admitted defeat.

 

[Alucrid]

I don't understand why a badly contrived boss battle is needed just because it's a game.

ME2 would have been a better game if it wasn't for the silly reaper terminator.

ME1 would have been better if the final battle didn't make Saren randomly teleport and make him fucking silly instead of scary.

Da2 would have been better if the mage/templar leaders didn't turn into monsters.

As much as I dislike the ending, it would have been so much worse if the illusive man became some comical monster to shoot.

ME3 should have had some blood mages

 

[hateradio]

I don't think he buttered Shep; I asked if you thought that was the case.

I pretty much said that the VI was unimpressed by Shep, so I don't think it did.

As far as the cycle goes, I think this one was just the one to disprove the Catalysts claims. It was wrong, and it gave out some new options when the Crucible attached itself. The end happens. Everyone lives or dies, it doesn't matter. Space magic to the rescue if you let it out.

But everyone worked together to receive it. One thing is elevate a whole species that have no idea how the things work, and other thing is to elevate everyone, but between the species there are some who acquired ultimate knowledge, who can guide the others.

What? I think you're thinking too much about this "gift" idea. It's not a gift, it was just a new option, something different. It could have done it with a mouse if it had fallen in there. If it's a gift, then it really is a terrible thing to give.

One gift caused millions of years of death, suffering, and destruction.

 

[The Technomancer]

Pretty sure EDI mentions it when you discover the human Reaper, theorising that Reapers take the form of whatever species was harvested, and the reason we haven't see a Prothean Reaper is because they failed to successfully convert that species.

But they've probably retconned that.

To be totally fair....EDI could be wrong

 

[Mindlog]

No they didn't. Legion explicitly states across two games that only the heretics has chosen a life of conflict, and the geth instead chose isolation, harbouring no grudges with organics. He goes as far as to state peace may be possible if it comes from both sides. ME3 reveals the Geth consensus still remembered the better part of the Quarians, and the only reason they're now at war is because the Quarians thought it would be a smart idea to start one.

Literally the entirety of the Quarian/Geth conflict across the trilogy is the Quarians fault.

In their defense the Quarians were scared that the council would find out about the Geth.

Still, screw em. Long live Space Robot Jesus Legion.

Was it ever explained why Quarians wore full suits in the past?

 

[ElFly]

The Keepers were 'disabled', so to speak, no longer doing Reaper stuff and instead just keeping the Citadel in working order. But, you know, that probably wouldn't have lasted if Space Casper had noticed and decided otherwise. Or activated the relay himself.

oh look more plot holes wee how fun this is



Pretty sure EDI mentions it when you discover the human Reaper, theorising that Reapers take the form of whatever species was harvested, and the reason we haven't see a Prothean Reaper is because they failed to successfully convert that species.

But they've probably retconned that.

Eeeh, dunno.

Chances are we've seen the prothean reaper but it just looks like the rest of the reapers. Maybe if you opened up, dunno, harbinger or the reaper in Rannoch, you'd see a giant prothean inside.

 

[Zomba13]

In their defense the Quarians were scared that the council would find out about the Geth.

Still, screw em. Long live Space Robot Jesus Legion.

Was it ever explained why Quarians wore full suits in the past?

The images shown in the Geth Consensus were from Sheps mind so all the Quarians had suits (aka bioware was lazy)

 

[alerus]

It was never finished until this cycle, so our cycle was the beneficiary of countless cycles of work. The Protheans were more advanced obviously when it came to reading memories from just touch yet our cycle achieved something even Jaavik admitted they couldn't; cooperation.

So what if it was never finished until this cycle? The gift of technology means nothing about the species who received the gift. And the cooperation really isn't all that significant. It was barely put together by one man and again, within the entire galaxy there are uncountable numbers of individuals who are not responsible or wouldn't have gone along with cooperation. Given how cooperation is to the extend found in the ME universe really isn't that profound I find it exceptionally hard to believe that no other civilization in the past was equivalent in this regard. That would be a massive contrivance.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Stop fueling the indoc theory.

It's not sane to do so.

Believing in the indoc theory is much more fun than spamming bioware people on twitter demanding things.

Sane? True? Probably not. More fun? Yes.

 

[littleworm]

In their defense the Quarians were scared that the council would find out about the Geth.

Still, screw em. Long live Space Robot Jesus Legion.

Was it ever explained why Quarians wore full suits in the past?

Because the Quarian images were pulled form Shepard's mind, and he apparently has never seen the face or a picture of a Quaraian. You could also go one further and wonder why they were wearing their suits during the end game when they were on the ships, they have no reason to.


The real reason is the Bioware is just lazy and couldn't come up with what they should look like.

 

[Mindlog]

The images shown in the Geth Consensus were from Sheps mind so all the Quarians had suits (aka bioware was lazy)

Forgot about that. Thank you.

I actually kind of like that they were never revealed. Stupid stock photo aside.

 

[alerus]

Well the AI isnt really there, it is a hologram it cant stop Shepard. Shepard was going to activate something while he was there, even if he has to push every damn button. The AI simply guided him and admitted defeat.

It could have not lifted the elevator or woken him up

 

[MiamiWesker]

I don't understand why a badly contrived boss battle is needed just because it's a game.

ME2 would have been a better game if it wasn't for the silly reaper terminator.

ME1 would have been better if the final battle didn't make Saren randomly teleport and make him fucking silly instead of scary.

Da2 would have been better if the mage/templar leaders didn't turn into monsters.

As much as I dislike the ending, it would have been so much worse if the illusive man became some comical monster to shoot.

Totally disagree. Bosses add variety, adds finality to the gameplay. I don't know why some of you people play video games honestly, don't you play to play the game. Bosses are hugely important to an action game, if not you just got the same enemies over and over, repetition, lack of big moments. It creates a finish to the gameplay, one final moment to test your all the skills you have learned up till that moment.

 

[Cagey]

The images shown in the Geth Consensus were from Sheps mind so all the Quarians had suits (aka bioware was lazy)

At least, having romanced Tali in ME2, Shep mentioned "well... I've seen one unmasked Quarian" after Legion cited how he's never seen unsuited Quarians and thus his mental image is all suited dudes.

An explanation I still found entirely unsatisfactory, but hell, at least it got acknowledged. More than I can ask for.

 

[EatChildren]

Why leave Sovereign behind if Casper is watching?

More plot holes.

To be totally fair....EDI could be wrong

With that body? No way.

Was it ever explained why Quarians wore full suits in the past?

They didn't. They were forced to adopt the suits after they were kicked off the homeworld.

Eeeh, dunno.

Chances are we've seen the prothean reaper but it just looks like the rest of the reapers. Maybe if you opened up, dunno, harbinger or the reaper in Rannoch, you'd see a giant prothean inside.

Right, but this is just another unknown that conflicts with existing information and assumption that the game gave us. Another unanswered and confusing question.

 

[Marleyman]

So what if it was never finished until this cycle?

That showed the Catalyst that this cycle was different.

The gift of technology means nothing about the species who received the gift. And the cooperation really isn't all that significant. It was barely put together by one man and again, within the entire galaxy there are uncountable numbers of individuals who are not responsible or wouldn't have gone along with cooperation. Given how cooperation is to the extend found in the ME universe really isn't that profound I find it exceptionally hard to believe that no other civilization in the past was equivalent in this regard. That would be a massive contrivance.

I just don't see how it means nothing. Cooperation was significant because it was something that the Protheans couldn't do because they chose to conquer their cycles races. Obviously we don't know about the other cycles but dismissing the fact that Shepard gathered the races to fight together is potentially missing the reason why this cycle was special.

 

[The Technomancer]

Totally disagree. Bosses add variety, adds finality to the gameplay. I don't know why some of you people play video games honestly, don't you play to play the game. Bosses are hugely important to an action game, if not you just got the same enemies over and over, repetition, lack of big moments. It creates a finish to the gameplay, one final moment to test your all the skills you have learned up till that moment.

Neither the ME1 boss nor the ME2 boss felt like tests of skill to me. Maybe it was the build I was playing but the ME1 boss felt like a battle of attrition and the ME2 boss was straight up a game of reciprocal whack-a-mole

 

[hamchan]

Saren was a great boss in ME1.

Should have made space kid the final boss in ME3.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Totally disagree. Bosses add variety, adds finality to the gameplay. I don't know why some of you people play video games honestly, don't you play to play the game. Bosses are hugely important to an action game, if not you just got the same enemies over and over, repetition, lack of big moments. It creates a finish to the gameplay, one final moment to test your all the skills you have learned up till that moment.

If it's a company with a past track record of awesome bosses and it actually makes sense to the story? Sure hell yes give me a boss.

If the company has an awful track record with bosses and it would actually make this shitty ending worse if TIM had reaper steroids and turned into a giant monster? LOL NO thanks!

If I wanted to test my skills I would play a multiplayer game, or not play a video game at all. I care about mass effect because of the pre ending universe and the characters. Do I enjoy the action? Yes, but it's by far the least important part of the puzzle as long as it's not completely broken.



Every boss bioware has made this gen has had little/no skill involved and has made the atmosphere/story WORSE.

Asking bioware to make a boss fight is like asking Infinity Ward to make a dating sim.

 

[ElFly]

A final boss would have been better than Marauder Shields and chatting up the illusive man.

 

[Alucrid]

A final boss would have been better than Marauder Shields and chatting up the illusive man.

you take that back asshole

 

[Riposte]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q2gum3fNe_Q#t=91s

This is probably what bugs me most. The reapers should be stuck in dark space. ME2 should have ended with the Reapers being seriously fucked and panicking, not being ready to fight.

 

[hamchan]

Nah, Marauder Shields is the 2nd best possible final boss. The best one is the Space Kid. I really want to shoot that kid.

 

[alerus]

That showed the Catalyst that this cycle was different.
I just don't see how it means nothing. Cooperation was significant because it was something that the Protheans couldn't do because they chose to conquer their cycles races. Obviously we don't know about the other cycles but dismissing the fact that Shepard gathered the races to fight together is potentially missing the reason why this cycle was special.

Because it is (1) not special if this level of cooperation was common in the past (and again, it would be a major contrivance to say it didn't happen to this extent in the past) and (2) it was barely held together and on the shoulders of one man. It's not impressive in the least especially when so many are ruthless basterds. If synthesis is reserved for mature species, this was not a good metric, especially not for the entire friggin galaxy. At most it tells you something about a subset of them.

 

[ElFly]

you take that back asshole

Ok. Let me rephrase.

Surely Bioware could have created a better final boss than Marauder Shields.

 

[MiamiWesker]

So what if it was never finished until this cycle? The gift of technology means nothing about the species who received the gift. And the cooperation really isn't all that significant. It was barely put together by one man and again, within the entire galaxy there are uncountable numbers of individuals who are not responsible or wouldn't have gone along with cooperation. Given how cooperation is to the extend found in the ME universe really isn't that profound I find it exceptionally hard to believe that no other civilization in the past was equivalent in this regard. That would be a massive contrivance.

Maybe a species was equivalent but they probably did not have the advancements in tech this cycle had. Every cycle improves upon the last cause they leave more clues, more instructions for the crucible. The crucible does not get reset after each cycle, each cycle added to its construction. This cycle was the one to finally reach the point where the info, tech and time needed to make it finally fit, and if it wasn't for the cooperation of all species this cycle would have not been able to finish it.

 

[Disheveled_Zen]

But Marauder Shields was supposed to be our salvation, not our destruction....

 

[Almighty]

On this subject of the Quarians and their suits.

It always made me wonder why everyone always wondered what the Quarians looked like in the ME universe? Am I supposed to believe that no one bother to use ME's version of Google to find a picture of them from the time they didn't have suits. Or that the others races were too busy to take a picture of them and upload it to the net before the Quarians wore the suits.

Sorry just one of the little things that annoyed me. I know the real life reason just in universe it seemed like it shouldn't of really been that hard to find a picture.

 

[LuchaShaq]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q2gum3fNe_Q#t=91s

This is probably what bugs me most. The reapers should be stuck in dark space. ME2 should have ended with the Reapers being seriously fucked and panicking, not being ready to fight.

This would have led to ME2.5 where almost no reaper story happens, people already bitched like crazy that ME2 didn't matter. If ME3 was just Shep bouncing around the galaxy hanging out I'd probably have fun but most would be PISSED.

 

[Zeliard]

So what if it was never finished until this cycle? The gift of technology means nothing about the species who received the gift. And the cooperation really isn't all that significant. It was barely put together by one man and again, within the entire galaxy there are uncountable numbers of individuals who are not responsible or wouldn't have gone along with cooperation. Given how cooperation is to the extend found in the ME universe really isn't that profound I find it exceptionally hard to believe that no other civilization in the past was equivalent in this regard. That would be a massive contrivance.

They explained it fine in the Protheans' case since the Protheans were essentially just imperialistic assholes who dominated the entire galaxy till the Reapers came and slapped them around for a few centuries.

As far as the other cycles before that, it could be they tried to cooperate and simply failed miserably. Remember that they had to finish the Crucible *and* discover who the Catalyst really was before Kid Citadel would even bother to talk with them. Even the final cycle just got through by the skin of its teeth, and with all the Mass Relays dead, they're in for a rough going.

I like the Mass Relays all blowing up. In some sense, it's like that entire cycle sacrificed itself so the next one could have a Reaper-less abode.

 

[MiamiWesker]

If it's a company with a past track record of awesome bosses and it actually makes sense to the story? Sure hell yes give me a boss.

If the company has an awful track record with bosses and it would actually make this shitty ending worse if TIM had reaper steroids and turned into a giant monster? LOL NO thanks!

If I wanted to test my skills I would play a multiplayer game, or not play a video game at all. I care about mass effect because of the pre ending universe and the characters. Do I enjoy the action? Yes, but it's by far the least important part of the puzzle as long as it's not completely broken.



Every boss bioware has made this gen has had little/no skill involved and has made the atmosphere/story WORSE.

Asking bioware to make a boss fight is like asking Infinity Ward to make a dating sim.

I enjoyed many of the ME boss battles. They are not excellent but the add much needed variety and creates a memorable moment. And clearly we play games for different reasons.

 

[EatChildren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q2gum3fNe_Q#t=91s

This is probably what bugs me most. The reapers should be stuck in dark space. ME2 should have ended with the Reapers being seriously fucked and panicking, not being ready to fight.

Ever since ME1 ended, long before ME2, I always felt BioWare had dug themselves a bit of a hole, and the final warning from Shepard was a bit weird. He/she is all like "The Reapers are a threat and they're coming!", and I couldn't help but think "wasn't the whole purpose of this game to stop them coming, and I succeeded?".

 

[hamchan]

This would have led to ME2.5 where almost no reaper story happens, people already bitched like crazy that ME2 didn't matter. If ME3 was just Shep bouncing around the galaxy hanging out I'd probably have fun but most would be PISSED.

Or ME2 should have had a story where the reapers find a way to get back.

 

[Marleyman]

Because it is (1) not special if this level of cooperation was common in the past (and again, it would be a major contrivance to say it didn't happen to this extent in the past)

What makes you believe that it isn't special? If the Protheans didn't accomplish this what are you basing your assumption from? The Protheans were basically the opposite of what everyone thought they were.

and (2) it was barely held together and on the shoulders of one man. It's not impressive in the lea[st especially when so many are ruthless basterds. If synthesis is reserved for mature species, this was not a good metric, especially not for the entire friggin galaxy. At most it tells you something about a subset of them.

One man may have been the catalyst for them coming together but they all did, and that was the key, to me at least. We don't know the exact criteria for synthesis, but this cycle met it and that is all that is important.

 

[ElFly]

Because it is (1) not special if this level of cooperation was common in the past (and again, it would be a major contrivance to say it didn't happen to this extent in the past) and (2) it was barely held together and on the shoulders of one man. It's not impressive in the least especially when so many are ruthless basterds. If synthesis is reserved for mature species, this was not a good metric, especially not for the entire friggin galaxy. At most it tells you something about a subset of them.

Without Shepard, Cerberus would have built the Crucible and the illusive man would have chosen Control.

On the other hand, maybe Cerberus wouldn't have been able to complete the Crucible in time, because they didn't have the resources of all the races. The fucked up thing is that maybe Liara wouldn't have created the box detailing what the crucible was for the next cycle, maybe fucking it up for the next cycle completely.

 

[Replicant]

Also, how in the hell did nobody from any civilization bother to inspect the entire citadel?

It's so fucking dumb. Especially considering there's the existence of those creatures, The Keepers, that no one knows of their origin or who created them. One would think they'd investigate first before using the place.