I was just about to post this. While I don't agree about games needing to have a happy ending, I love his view about the player-developer relationship (at least for a epic RPG trilogy).
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
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I was just about to post this. While I don't agree about games needing to have a happy ending, I love his view about the player-developer relationship (at least for a epic RPG trilogy).
I agree. No inherent need to end a game on a positive note at all. You do what's best for the story, whether that's a happy ending, bittersweet ending, or dark ending.
EmCeeGramr
Member
I wonder if the Reapers have like, a checklist or a handbook that has official Reaper regulations on what constitutes synthetics. Like, does a race of cyborgs? A bunch of organic minds uploaded into a computer? What about genetically engineered races designed for a task like an AI? Or a computer program that's uploaded into "wet" genetically engineered hardware?
Unless it just means "metal robots with copper circuits" which the Mint ending implies.
Unless it just means "metal robots with copper circuits" which the Mint ending implies.
Psychoward
Banned
While that is true, the "offsprings" in established mythologies were often necessary simply to influence or guide humans in a specific direction (good or bad) - not to continue the existence of the gods.
After looking back on the series, I think I probably would have preferred maintaining the reapers as some sort of incomprehensible existence as sovereign described - something on the lines of the Old Ones from Lovecraft's work which was really well done.
As much as I wanted to know more about the mythos in Lovecraft's work (and more about the reapers), it was so much better not fully understanding.
I really don't get why people think this scene is so great. It's nothing more than 5 minutes of "CHECK OUT HOW BIG MY DICK IS".
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
It was 5 years ago...I still remember the chills me and my friends felt after that line.. To this date we still haven't been able accurately describe it.
elrechazado
Banned
Shrug, if you didn't like it that's fine. The build up to it and the reveal is pretty amazing storytelling. In context it's an all time moment for me.
Robot Pants
Member
I think this was the highest point in the entire series.
I wouldn't trade the awesome characters that are some of my favorite in any medium for a quality ending.
The ending being shitty doesn't make the character arcs any less awesome like - Wrex from merc to leader of his race any less awesome/Garrus from a cop to the right hand of Space Jesus/Tali from clueless kid to Admiral of Quarian fleet/Liara from clueless scientist to the motherfucking shadowbroker. etc
Would have been cliche as FUCK but I honestly would have liked a convo with harbinger like the ME1 convo with soverign.
Empty Space
Member
I asked this same question the other day what would happen if say you presented them with somebody from the Deus EX universe or a genetically engineered species they themselves didn't create like the collectors would they implode?
BabeSlayer
Member
my thoughts upon finishing the game were "so....they just destroyed the universe I love?"
I don't complain about the way people take their stories too much. I generally just enjoy the journey for what it is, and don't get me wrong I absolutely love Mass Effect 3, however all that being said I am disappointing in the ending just like so many others.
It isn't even that I am upset that the reapers had some purpose that was circular logic at best. It was that the entire universe was changed in the blink of an eye. It was huge huge build up, pulling forces together, setting aside old grudges to...have everything not really matter because well...everything changed.
I guess it just irritates me that there wont be any future ME games, books, movies, comics, etc, because well if that stays as cannon than that universe is straight up gone.
There was just so much they could have done, so many different directions they could have taken it. Just sad to see such a promising universe destroyed in such a manner. I still love bioware, I still will play their games, I still support them creating more games. I just as a fan of the series am sad to see such a promising universe be so completely obliterated.
My hope is that the success of the ME franchise will spur other developers to tackle sci-fi opera type settings, and result in us having the Star Trek/Star Wars experience of this generation. Hopefully someone (and maybe it will be bioware) will create something where our choices are not just window dressing, where the characters are all memorable, and with so many story arches that it will live on like some of the other sci fi greats of yesteryear.
Now I'm going to play some more Mass Effect
I don't complain about the way people take their stories too much. I generally just enjoy the journey for what it is, and don't get me wrong I absolutely love Mass Effect 3, however all that being said I am disappointing in the ending just like so many others.
It isn't even that I am upset that the reapers had some purpose that was circular logic at best. It was that the entire universe was changed in the blink of an eye. It was huge huge build up, pulling forces together, setting aside old grudges to...have everything not really matter because well...everything changed.
I guess it just irritates me that there wont be any future ME games, books, movies, comics, etc, because well if that stays as cannon than that universe is straight up gone.
There was just so much they could have done, so many different directions they could have taken it. Just sad to see such a promising universe destroyed in such a manner. I still love bioware, I still will play their games, I still support them creating more games. I just as a fan of the series am sad to see such a promising universe be so completely obliterated.
My hope is that the success of the ME franchise will spur other developers to tackle sci-fi opera type settings, and result in us having the Star Trek/Star Wars experience of this generation. Hopefully someone (and maybe it will be bioware) will create something where our choices are not just window dressing, where the characters are all memorable, and with so many story arches that it will live on like some of the other sci fi greats of yesteryear.
Now I'm going to play some more Mass Effect
DA:O's story sucked, but choice it did well. How glorious ME3's ending would have been had it been given the DA:O treatment. Many hours would have been wasted replaying the whole trilogy. So many hours. Thank you for giving me my life back, Mac Walters; now I shall help orphans (humans only) in my spare time.
Zomba13
Member
Max respect for him. Loved DA:O didn't even try DA2 because of all the changes they decided to make to it.
I don't think most people are looking for a happy sugar coated ending to ME3. But for a big conclusion to a trilogy RPG series with so many on-going connections and character hooks, something more fleshed out would be nice, and I think most people would want an epilogue too.
Empty Space
Member
Sure it does they are all probably dead and will never be able to accomplish anything in their new roles in the universe.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
(Different games I know)
Red Dead Redemption didn't end on a happy note at all. And I believe everyone was happy(?) about the ending. It was sad, yes but it left a fulfillment feeling in my mind. So much so I made a music video BASED entirely on the ending.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Sovereign's conversation was great, but I always felt the Reaper 'reveal' was pretty overrated. You find out about the Reapers, in some form, before you've even left the Citadel. Confronting Sovereign was a great climax to that, but I always felt the Reaper twist itself was almost of a non-twist just for how early it is introduced.
And as cool as the conversation is, I don't really like the idea of making the enigmatic machine gods. Not that I needed them completely excused or given reason for their existence, I just prefer the story arc of Sovereign big noting himself mostly to prove how superior he is to you, and how in his eyes organics are ants, yet as the trilogy progresses their mortality is exposed ("If it bleeds, we can kill it.").
That's pretty much it. Happy/sad whatever. ME3's ending problem is that it resolves nothing at all, introduces new problems, and leaves the galaxy in a confusing, unfinished state. What little explanation it attempts to offer for events is half-arsed metaphysical bullshit that has no place in the climax of a space opera trilogy.
No, I think it's good. It sets the reapers up as the villains well. What I don't understand the awe that people have for the reapers. They're powerful beings, but they are not fascinating ones. Even if they're motivations were never explained and the nature of them was kept intact from ME1, they are just creatures that are absurdly powerful and have god complexes because of it. That's...really all there is to them. If they really wanted me to think that they were these creatures whose sapience so far outmatches ours, Sovereign should have never deigned himself to talk to Shepard and conversed with him. Using Eatchildrens analogy, it'd be like a human explaining to a cow why we will kill and eat it.
They're not doing it to continue their existance, as they seem to be effectively immortal. You could have that be the 'incomprehensible motivation' if you want. They seem to be planning something by making more and more of themselves for some unknowable purpose.
That scene is pretty awesome. God damn I need to play the first game at some opportunity. No 360 or gaming PC leaves me without options for now. I SHALL RECTIFY THIS. I need to play this game.
EmCeeGramr
Member
That's more on the issue of how clumsily the Reapers are introduced in ME1.
*Shepard listens to nonsensical time-traveling recording of Saren and Benezia acting happy about Eden Prime even though they were upset*
"THAT'S IT 'REAPERS' THE PROTHEANS WERE WIPED OUT BY A SYNTHETIC RACE CALLED REAPERS THAT ARE COMING BACK AND SAREN IS USING THEM AS GODS TO CONTROL THE GETH"
wow good job shepard private eye you figured it all out on a balcony by just hearing that word and having a vague dream
Zomba13
Member
What if Biowares response if to keep the edngins and everything the same but offer a free patch (not DLC or anything) that adds in DA:O style text box epilogues for all your major choices and characters and races? Like the Geth live happily ever after helping the Quarians or the Rachni went off and secluded themselves and no one is sure what happens to them or Garrus helps rebuilds Palaven by the Primarchs side.
I think I'd feel better. The actual ending would still be shit and talking about your squad would make no sense with the Normandy thing (but it doesn't make sense in the first place so whatever).
I think I'd feel better. The actual ending would still be shit and talking about your squad would make no sense with the Normandy thing (but it doesn't make sense in the first place so whatever).
Brawndo Addict
Banned
It's a shame that false dichotomy has become the go to framing of the entire debate for the mainstream gaming press. Gamers are clearly entitled, they just want super happy endings with no real weight, how childish of them. I don't know how someone could think only two possibilities exist, a perfectly happy ending and dark, nihilistic one, and anyone who disagrees with what Bioware chose clearly is an entitled brat who can't respect creative choice. I'd like to think professionals understand things exist on a spectrum and not binary absolutes.
The ending for ME 3 isn't even that dark, a real dark ending would be the reapers win anyway and your efforts were all for naught, regardless of any choices/numbers.
I know I'm probably the last proponent of the Indoctrination Theory left in the thread, but I thought this was a pretty interesting take on said theory -
http://uninhibitedandunrepentant.tumblr.com/post/19344938387/mind-holy-fuck
In addition, taking the points raised in the context that Bioware was experimenting with the concept of indoctrination in the final sequence, but dropped it because "taking control" away of shepard would be too weird for fans, this would be a perfect way to pull it off, but in an entirely different way.
http://uninhibitedandunrepentant.tumblr.com/post/19344938387/mind-holy-fuck
In addition, taking the points raised in the context that Bioware was experimenting with the concept of indoctrination in the final sequence, but dropped it because "taking control" away of shepard would be too weird for fans, this would be a perfect way to pull it off, but in an entirely different way.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Hey guys I am still fucking bummed this red bull is not helping
arggg
Fine
*hug*
That's on the house.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Shepard was too enamoured by Tali's pheromone rich Quarian sweat to object.
There's almost nothing 'dark' about the synthesis ending anyway. The Reaper threat is removed and organics and synthetics are uplifted to a technological singularity DNA that promises peace and higher thinking. Nobody dies because your EMS is high enough, and your crew is marooned on a Eden paradise. Then an old guy tells his grand kid that the galaxy is wondrous and amazing.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
So, if you guys are still upset about the ending, I would avoid listening to Weekend Confirmed. I considered myself pretty much over all this but listening to it gave me a little twitch.
Complistic
Member
I think there always needs to be a way to get a happy ending though. It's a game, you're suppose to be able to win. That's what games do. If they want to make a movie, then put in whatever ending you want.
I think it's more the fact that the Reapers could just vent the air out since they had direct control over the Citadel. Honestly, rebellion within the Citadel? Vent air, kill or incapacitate, and turn into Reaper goo.
Agreed. I don't think all games need a happy ending, but to throw out player choice at the end like that. That is one of the major things that killed ME3's ending for me.
Talking about the ending though ME3 could of had a very good semi happy ending. I say semi happy because how happy could you of made that game with major worlds like Earth ravaged, countless colonies gone, and so one. The ending in my opinion would of been much better if it was we beat the reapers hooray then have shep turn around and look at a ravaged still burning Earth or something.
Thnx man spent my last 14.99 on mp loot
EmCeeGramr
Member
Tali: "Hey can I join your crew it'd mean a lot."
Shepard: "Okay, you can sidle up next to my C-Sec officer and this amoral mercenary and assassin."
Meanwhile Udina and Anderson are right there and they have no fucking clue what Shepard is doing.
This is by far my biggest issue with it, kill shep? Fine that's actually good in my book which is why I hate the good ending/breath thing.
But kill the universe? FUCK
Honestly hate star wars even the original trilogy, don't like Star Trek in the slightest either.
The only two fictional universe's I care about AT ALL are Mass Effect and "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. To see one just thrown in the trash is one of my biggest bummers in gaming ever.
I would rather have had an ending as awful as Dragon Age 2/Heavy Rain and HATED it but still had the universe for future works.
Also it's kinda weird how DARK and BROODY Shepard is on the cover of the game. In the game he's all...we can do this everyone!!! uguu~ ^__^
edit: Rewatching the ending, it's pretty clear the Mass Relays kinda explode. I mean it's not like they just lose energy and dry up and that's that...there is very clear fire and explosion and there is a red wave radiating outwards...maybe this is an argument of degrees.
edit: Rewatching the ending, it's pretty clear the Mass Relays kinda explode. I mean it's not like they just lose energy and dry up and that's that...there is very clear fire and explosion and there is a red wave radiating outwards...maybe this is an argument of degrees.
Robot Pants
Member
Oh good. Black text on a dark purple background. Yea my eyes aren't bleeding or anything.
Who said anything about a trade?
Empty Space
Member
Oh god sometimes I wonder if you are serious when you type those things out. :lol
EmCeeGramr
Member
Shepard picks up a destroyed baby statue.
"Destroyed Byoo-tee..." he growls as Cliffy B stands in the background, shedding a tear
Shake Appeal
Member
He's flatly wrong about having to end a game, or any work of art, happily.
But this, this...
Can we tape this to the monitor of everyone working in videogames today please? Especially the 'AAA' teams.
But this, this...
Can we tape this to the monitor of everyone working in videogames today please? Especially the 'AAA' teams.
As someone who uses tumblr a bit, I can say that tumblr is where all the janky and godawful myspace html layout shit went.
I don't think it closing has any negative affects. In ME1 it states that the station can close as a defense mechanism were it to ever come under outside attack and once it's closed it's impenetrable and indestructible.
Well, that video had kaiden in it, so I understand why you feel that way.
Same here, song of ice and fire and ME.
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