Keepin it professional, whatever the hell that means.
Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE
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LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
You're picking and choosing what parts of indoctrination to back up your flimsy theories. Indoctrination also takes days or weeks, while being in a close proximity to reapers. Shepard was only near reapers for minutes, and even Saren broke free long enough to shoot himself at the end of Mass Effect 1, and he had some sort of implants from Sovereign in him.
It's not indoctrination. His eyes changed because it's a lazy texture for synthetic eyeballs. He showed up on Earth because that's the only ending where he isn't disintegrated and they needed to add something else if you had a high EMS. Maybe he survived because as the EMP wave to stop all synthetics was going out, he was teleporting back down the beam of light.
Why do the reapers show him a happy ending to his crew even if he defied them and chose the destroy option? Why indoctrinate him at all if they're in the middle of their attack, the only reason they do it is to have secret agents. They're winning the war against organics and the only threat is Shepard activating the Crucible. They would just kill him.
I want to avatar bet or something that it isn't indoctrination, that's how strongly I believe it isn't what happened.
He keeps saying that he's waiting for more people to finish the game before he delves into spoilers, which is sort of silly because people who haven't beaten it could ignore him just like they've ignored the specifics of the ending talk.
More likely is they still don't really know how to respond, so they're biding their time.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
I have to admit I have grown to loathe, yes Loathe, the "sympathy hour" section of modern games.
For instance, in Killzone 3 you are stopped in a 'tranfer zone' while prisoners are let out of a transport who of course are your buddies. The actual player response: JUMPING TIME.
I hate those sections, as nobody gives a shit about those forced "but this all soooo saaaaad" moment on the player.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
It's a non-answer but I guess understandable given his position.
I'm not sure why he'd bother to answer when he said nothing :/
I'm not sure why he'd bother to answer when he said nothing :/
Well, the reason I believe the indoctrination theory works so well is because there are many, many hints about it, to the point where it becomes overwhelming. I do admit that at some point, you just start seeing the patterns everywhere. But what gets me is the way they handled the destruction ending in a different way than the synthesis or control ending. ESPECIALLY when Shepard survives at the end. Subtle things like the music that article mentioned or that the good choice is made by the villain of the game while the bad one is made by the noblest of characters. Why would they do that if they didn't intend it? I don't know, they probably just didn't think about it. But because they did do that, it helps make the interpretation more valid in my eyes. As it stands, the indoctrination theory makes sense because I can see how they are trying to get shepard to act in a way that benefits them.
For me, if they continue the series following the absurd sequence of events following the ending or maybe have shepard acting in such a way that is against what the reapers want with no real distinction than if he didn't, then yeah, it's hard to keep believing in it when they are continuing with the line that the ending actually happened. At that point, it wouldn't seem likely to me.
You should also consider how bioware may change. Lets say that they didn't intend the indoctrination theory originally, but they come out with DLC confirming it. What do you do then? Is the indoctrination theory still not applicable since bioware didn't originally intend it?
Zomba13
Member
I really don't get why the fuck that single piece of dialouge changes. Some say it was because of uniting the Geth and Quarian but if the AI/game acknowledges that then why can't we bring it up in defence of synthetics?
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
It's saying something without committing to anything. Another element to hopefully quell the unruly masses.
Someone else said something on the BSN that I thought made some sense.
True or not, it certainly holds in this instance.
hah so appropriate man
Well, the Crucible was the doomsday device. To be used in a doomsday scenario.
And you would think if aliens, bit by bit, each contributed to the creation of the device someone somewhere during its construction would have implemented a firing mechanism to shoot the thing either from a distance or automatically once everything was all linked up.
And why does the Crucible have three separate options for its use? I'm pretty sure no one designing it thought it would be good to have one guy in control of the reapers.
Because it wouldn't leave us to speculate. Get on the line!
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
To me they are both renegade.. both destroy life
EmCeeGramr
Member
The craziest part is:
-The Crucible has been built over countless cycles by countless species, yet somehow the Reapers have either never found out about it or never made unbeatable countermeasures against it despite indoctrinating agents in each species every time.
-They keep "improving" on it even though they have no idea what it's ultimately supposed to do.
heliosRAzi
Banned
It is just as likely, if not more so, that Bioware are just lazy. And if the indoc theory is true, then Shep is just lying on Earth while the fight is still going on. Nothing is accomplished. This theory just provides hope for those wanting DLC that will explain everything.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I sense the speculation strong in this one
Complistic
Member
Shepard spent a few days by object rho at the end of ME2 in the arrival DLC. Plus he got "zapped" by it when he first saw it. And the indoctrinated eyes isn't unarguable proof or anything, just supporting evidence. It's not one or two things, it's the way the entire scene plays out and the attention to the little things.
He should be disintegrated in every ending. He isn't in the destroy ending for a reason. It's not just because. I love to hate on bioware, but even I can realize they put a lot of thought into the ending. I doubt they put all that effort into it and came up with the "obvious" ending. Because it's just plain awful.
Anyways, I'm not going to argue this any further because it's not possible to prove for sure one way or the other.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
The Crucible was to be used against the reapers, the only missing part was the catalyst, basically a power source.
You're getting the Crucible and the Citadel mixed up, the three different options are on the Citadel. A control panel, a power line, and the beam that combines all life.
No one knows anything about the Crucible, more incredible writing from Bioware. It just looked like a hunk of metal, but it somehow gave the Catalyst new ideas for a solution to the organic problem.
dragonelite
Member
what if it is a trap. You have too choose between a red,blue and green colored tags.
And two of them lead to a permanent ban and one is you snapping out of indoctrination.
Now we only need too find a mod to play space Casper and marauder shields.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
One thing that really annoys me about the ending. When I played the from ashes DLC and saw what asshats the Protheans were, I wanted to play through without waking up Javik, and then after everything, in the aftergame, finally go wake him up.
"Oh... The reapers? We already beat them."
"what?"
"oh yeah, it was horrible though, worst few months of our lives."
"M...My people fought them for centuries."
"Oh. That sucks. Well, but that makes sense, we had that superweapon you guys invented that totally wiped them out. I'm sure you'd have won if you finished it."
"Well actually, we didn't invent it.. It uh was passed down from cycle to cycle."
"Huh? You fought for centuries and couldn't finish it? Oh, well, sorry. You're welcome to come on board our ship, enjoy the afterparty."
"Oh... The reapers? We already beat them."
"what?"
"oh yeah, it was horrible though, worst few months of our lives."
"M...My people fought them for centuries."
"Oh. That sucks. Well, but that makes sense, we had that superweapon you guys invented that totally wiped them out. I'm sure you'd have won if you finished it."
"Well actually, we didn't invent it.. It uh was passed down from cycle to cycle."
"Huh? You fought for centuries and couldn't finish it? Oh, well, sorry. You're welcome to come on board our ship, enjoy the afterparty."
If they want me to believe Shepard's DNA is the key to the final evolution of ALL organics, then him surviving that explosion doesn't seem so ridiculous to me.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I choose black as the color
If you say that is not an option,... well neither was pressing the power button
You must have missed the clarification I made a few pages ago.
I KNOW bioware was just that lazy. Mac Walters wasn't listening to anyone and just insisted on making this ending and his notes and interviews about it show he doesn't have the capacity for such subtly. Outside of the possibility that the other writers saw what was happening and staged a silent coup with the rest of the team so that they make the indoctrination theory possible, it just happened by accident. And that amkes it less likely that DLC that explains everything is coming.
But it doesn't invalidate the theory itself and as it is the interpretation that makes the most sense, I am sticking with it until something in the story refutes it.
Yeah, I hadn't thought of those.
I guess the writers thought it would be more dramatic if the Crucible was this machine built inch by inch over hundreds of thousands or millions of years, but it makes the device even more unworkable.
It don't make but no sense.
and shepard need no air? Mhhh... or the "super" Citadel made still some fresh Air only for Shepard after the "super" Citadel broke apart in 1 Trillion concrete/beton blocks
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Hackett to the rescue: "we don not even fully understand what it does"
(goes on with something like: \ we need to be careful, wouldn't it to backfire on us')
So yeah, they kinda avoided that one.
However, space casper not being able (or willing) to do it by itself is disturbing when you see it opening the arms of the citadel just one second before his appearance. That douche.
Af far I can tell though, the entire Citadel sequence is just.. wrong. From the moment of entry (bodies everywhere, but no baby Reaper is sight? "they're going to hit Earth!" -ME2- and now that they have, the result is...nothing?), to seeing Anderson behind the panel (oh, so he already did the whole button press thing? Then why am I here?), to TIM magically showing up (the reapers actually tried to kill his research, like a few hours ago, yet now he shows on the citadel...which makes no sense) and everything space casper.
I think the TIM confrontation was supposed to take place in his base, where he belongs. Not the shittiest boss in all of creation that nobody gives a crap about. (kai leng)
(I didn't want no damn leng! Shepard also does little more than "YOU!" every time he sees him. Yeah, speechless.Wow.)
Anderson dying could have been by anything, including Marauder Shields.
Doublesith
Member
Yup. I kept expecting a reveal that the whole thing was a Reaper trap because of that.
Robot Pants
Member
If anything, all that happens after Shepard gets blasted by Harbinger is just a dream and not indoctrination. If he was actually inside the Citadel and having imaginary conversations with TIM and Anderson while under indoctrination, how does he end up back in the rubble on the ground? Assuming the "real" ending is when we see him take a breath.
I'm guessing it was a dream, and the DLC picks up after he wakes up.
edit: ooh beaten a bit by a few images.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
In the optional DLC that not everyone did. Things that are optional never really factor into the main story, especially DLC.
The indoctrination isn't a beam, it's an undetectable signal that the reapers emanate anyway.
There's also a big difference between purposely being disintegrated and combined with the reapers or all life, and being kinda in proximity to a non-descript explosion that cuts away before we see what happens.
But whatever, makes more sense the reapers want to play with shepards mind instead of just kill him, when he's half dead and they shot right at him and just spent the past entire game trying to kill him anyway.
What's especially hilarious about the Crucible is the way Hackett explains its construction. The thing practically builds itself!
Even a kid can do it!
LightofRohan
Member
"Our game has been getting critical praise and a couple sites enjoyed the ending. We have strived to make Mass Effect a universe and we know people love it. DLC is also cool and we hope to have a bunch out this year! Thanks bye"
Well at least Penny Arcade got their due...
I think I'm starting to accept the ending. Played it once more and I started walking backwards instead of going towards the choices, Shepard somehow fell off the edge into the infinity of space. It was definitely a great way to end things and provided some closure. Shepard falling off the Citadel true Space-Jesus-Style:
Btw. you can "glitch" a savegame right before the choices, just go to the options and disable autosave. As an added benefit even Space Casper disappeared when i reloaded the save.
Zomba13
Member
Except they totally do. That is why you are grounded on Earth and stripped of your rank with your ship taken from you.
Also this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdWqlsQjWo doesn't look 'kinda in proximity to' it looks like inside the explosion.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
But we've seen him dreaming in the game, very explicitly seen what Shepard dreaming looks like.
We also see what being in close proximity to reaper tech looks like, the effect is even there in mass effect 1 when sovereign takes over saren. You get black squiggly lines across your screen.
And he DEFINITELY didn't start to get indoctrinated before ME3, since the Prothean VI didn't detect anything wrong in him
and shepard need no air? Mhhh... or the "super" Citadel made still some fresh Air only for Shepard after the "super" Citadel broke apart in 1 Trillion concrete/beton blocks
Shepard didn't need air at all because
he was indoctrinated the whole time *trollface*
Shepard has already tried re-entering orbit with unpleasant results though. I doubt Bioware forgot about the major event that started the second game.
dragonelite
Member
wrong you have no choice.. Indoctrinated!!
I'm mothafucking space Casper not even Shepard commander had a choice.
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
Or, if you didn't do it, you're in trouble because you were working for cerberus.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
EDIT: Nevermind, saw your post near the end of the previous page. The fact that you admit so much makes it seem more like you're just upset with how Bioware ended the game and less with the validity of the theory itself. And to humor you, how do you explain the Stargazer scene in the context of the indoctrination theory?
And this is where bringing in the context of how the work was created can help answer questions. We've already seen the facts, not possible evidence based on interpretation, that Bioware wrote this ending in order to generate speculation first and foremost. We've heard them state that they want to set any future Mass Effect games during or before Mass Effect 3, helping us understand why they so drastically altered the galactic landscape. We know the game was delayed and that they had difficulty coming up with a possible ending scenario, and that they went through multiple rewrites throughout the series with regards to the overarching plot, making the bizarreness of the ending more attributable to a rush job than nuance.
The biggest problem with the indoctrination interpretation has more to do with the fact they came out and said it wasn't meant to be implied, even though they were throwing around an ending where you lose control of Shepard, so it's not like they didn't ever think of this idea themselves. And given the fact they wanted to fuel speculation first and foremost, isn't it odd they came out and said that wasn't the ending rather than just say, "That's an interesting theory, ;-)."
And honestly, what's worse? The ending Bioware provided or the possibility that Bioware wants to sell you the real ending in DLC?
This could be truely epic. Mods what do you say? Screw TOS I am willing to play, and I will take the ban if I choose wrong. I will hold the line, Tali Zorah vas Normandy.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Wow. So Space Jesus really did do it. And all the races who worked on the Crucible across space and time really built a weapon they had absolutely no idea how to use.
It may well be dumber than I thought.
Zomba13
Member
So do the Batarians live then?
But that would also mean the Reapers would have arrived much sooner.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Which apparently killed all your previous squadmates in sole surviver
Robot Pants
Member
Oh ok. So the black lines were the Reaper tech. Makes sense. I didn't remember that from Saren. But we both agree that he wasn't indoctrinated.
So no dream.
So that horrible ending DID happen. UGH!
Yeah, I really think he's going to be pretty upset like I am once he gets there. He told me today he's at the point where Cerberus steals the artifact from Thessia, so I know he's getting close. I think next week's show we'll probably close out the episode with ending discussion.
You know, it really just makes me more angry when I think about it. I know most people will accept it and transfer into "apathy mode", but the more I think about the characters, my friendships/relationship, the lore, everything built up to the end, I just get more upset. I cannot get over it. I'm like a perpetual anger machine or something. I actually feel like I'm mourning the loss of all those characters.
*sigh* Fucking bummer man. Fucking bummer.
Empty Space
Member
People don't know this, but the race that first designed the Crucible were really into stylish, affordable, easy to build furniture and seeded the idea of an Ikea in all the future races to come. The Crucible came pre-assembled in a box with a great set of instructions consisting of no words just pictures.
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