Well, they do hit up Purgatory together. They missed the opportunity to show them fist pumping though.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread |OT2| Taste the Rainbow
- Thread starter Patryn
- Start date
Well, they do hit up Purgatory together. They missed the opportunity to show them fist pumping though.
Oh sorry I forgot nobody in here can have an opinion except for the one you have.
Because they forgot to have you interact with Vega.
Is that better or worse than "no one must ever change their mind"?
I didn't say that. I didn't say that at all.
I've just noticed lots of people who just beat the game come here and say "I liked it" or "it was okay for me" and then the cynical masses descend upon them with stuff like "really think about it" or "you just don't get why it's bad yet" or "you can like it but you can't say its good". Maybe some people just like it for its face value.. you know, they don't gotta delve into plot holes and missed opportunities when enjoying a game experience.
heliosRAzi
Banned
They can have differing opinions, but the discussion comes from us debating with them and figuring out why they like certain things or not.
No one ever said literally "nobody in here can have an opinion except for the one I have" either. Not at all. Thinking for yourself isn't peer pressure forcing people into agreeing with others because it's easier, it's thinking for yourself. You can't see any flaws with Bioware, sure, but that can't justify the yelling at those people who got refunds a couple of days back. After all, they were just getting their money back, at face value, for disliking the ending. That's their opinion.
Confidence Man
Member
I wanted an Asari Commando squadmate since the first game. :/
And a Salarian STG member like the ones on Virmire. Mordin was a good character but a terrible squad member, he had only fire and ice tech powers if I remember. zzzzz
I don't recall yelling. I recall typing hastily. And even then it was more like complaining about their shoddy excuses. No yelling.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Liara can flay people alive... with her mind and Mordin was STG for some time. It would have been nice to have another SPECTRE on your squad that wasn't the VS. Personally, I thought propping Garrus up to be a SPECTRE candidate would have been good, but seeing Generals salute him in ME3 was good enough.
I watched Star Trek IV yesterday. If you haven't seen it; you should. It's an immaculately paced film, almost on par with Back to the Future in that regard.
What makes it a cut above most other Trek movies is how it handles exposition. Characters don't dwell on plot points; Bones will mention how they will travel through time by using the sun as a slingshot and that it's been done before. Then they move on. There's not a single moment for the Mr. Plinkett in the viewer's head to go off and evaluate things because it's on to the next scene!
Here's where it applies to Mass Effect. When you have the Catalyst giving exposition and then DWELLING on that exposition, it causes the audience to reject the narrative. Furthermore, there's no ensuing scene of substance. The following scenes with the mass relays and Joker don't elaborate on the scene with the Catalyst.
It's like if Bones' explanation of time travel happened at the end of Star Trek IV, leaving the audience scratching their heads. Sure, ACTUAL sci-Fi narrative often ends with an esoteric, empty ending, but Mass Effect's hard sci-fi elements really only existed in one. It's a blockbuster space opera; its ending kind of deserves bombast over simplicity in that regard.
Overall, ME3 made the story about the characters first and foremost. It's very much like Trek in that regard; even the worst Trek movies have great Trek moments. And while Lost's writers ultimately deduced IT'S ABOUT THE CHARACTERS, at least Mass Effect didn't have an ending with the emotional resonance of a fucking TV Guide photoshoot.
I thought Mordin was decent enough to use him throughout the whole of ME2 (along with Miranda). Incinerate with a bigger range was great against husks, unless my memory is failing and he had Overload, which I used on anyone with shields (which was pretty much everyone on Insanity). Plus his flavor dialogue was unbeatable. RIP best ME character ever 
/stockholm syndrome
Okay, when do we stop pretending every straw man and weasel word is literal?
Side note: who else do you think is complaining about shoddy excuses in here?
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Walters: Hey, let's introduce a new character in the third and final game and then devote an entire anime and comic to him instead of the more interesting characters like Garrus, Wrex, or Liara!
Hudson: You just blew my mind, Mac! Get on that shit now! This is fucking art, high level shit, bro!
Walters: Hey dude, I know what else we can do, too!
And that's how Beast Machines was made
hey
HEY
HEEEEEY
Not cool. Beast machines was the lesser show, but also kind of awesome. In its own way. Ok, it just had cool moments. Megatron was actually kind of menacing compared to Beast Wars though.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Here's another way to look at the film:
In Star Trek 4, the "Catalyst" is a whale. They need to find it in order to save Earth. The whole movie is about gathering resources and going on fetch quests in order to be able to find the Catalyst - Sulu needs to get a helicopter, Bones and Scotty find the plastic or whatever to build the tank, and Uhuru and Chekov need to find a way to power up their ship.
After going through the fetch quests, building the characters (with Chekov falling off the ship and Bones having to save him), they get the whales, fly back to the present and then drop the whales off.
At no point do you need to know what the whales are singing to the probe or why the probe even came to Earth in the first place. The climax of the movie is that the "Catalyst" works.
And you also don't need a grimdark ending where Kirk dies because the whale eats him. In fact, the movie ends on a high note with him being "promoted" back to Captain and him flying off on the Enterprise with his crew.
Writing this stuff isn't rocket science and at times, they got it right. We're just in an age where science fiction writers LIKE to have their head up their own ass, creating works of intellectual masturbation that please no one except themselves.
I watched Star Trek IV yesterday. If you haven't seen it; you should. It's an immaculately paced film, almost on par with Back to the Future in that regard.
What makes it a cut above most other Trek movies is how it handles exposition. Characters don't dwell on plot points; Bones will mention how they will travel through time by using the sun as a slingshot and that it's been done before. Then they move on. There's not a single moment for the Mr. Plinkett in the viewer's head to go off and evaluate things because it's on to the next scene!
Here's where it applies to Mass Effect. When you have the Catalyst giving exposition and then DWELLING on that exposition, it causes the audience to reject the narrative. Furthermore, there's no ensuing scene of substance. The following scenes with the mass relays and Joker don't elaborate on the scene with the Catalyst.
It's like if Bones' explanation of time travel happened at the end of Star Trek IV, leaving the audience scratching their heads. Sure, ACTUAL sci-Fi narrative often ends with an esoteric, empty ending, but Mass Effect's hard sci-fi elements really only existed in one. It's a blockbuster space opera; its ending kind of deserves bombast over simplicity in that regard.
Overall, ME3 made the story about the characters first and foremost. It's very much like Trek in that regard; even the worst Trek movies have great Trek moments. And while Lost's writers ultimately deduced IT'S ABOUT THE CHARACTERS, at least Mass Effect didn't have an ending with the emotional resonance of a fucking TV Guide photoshoot.
Mass Effect 3's ending had the emotional resonance of a rock being thrown at my face.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Megatron was downright evil in Beast Machines
I didn't have as much of an issue with the ending as a lot of other people. I went in expecting that Shepard would need to sacrifice himself to break the cycle in some way, and that there would be Paragon, Renegade and nuetral ways of doing so, maybe that's why I'm not as disappointed. I received closure for the characters I cared about, which is what I was mostly interested in.
Sure the glowing kid could've been handled better, the whole last sequence felt sloppier and rushed than most of the parts beforehand. But there's a lot of the overall plot that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The Prothean's developed a weapon that they couldn't complete in time that was only just found out about and the plans are on Mars, and for some reason the Reapers, despite indoctornating the Protheans, have no clue it exists or what the Catalyst might be until the Illusive Man tells them? Hell Shepard was dead for 2 years just to give an excuse for him/her to be working for Cerberus in the last game. Between the books and the games, for a newer space bound species Humans keep tripping over Reaper artifacts that no one believes exist over and over again.
There's a ton of nit picking that could be done, and will be done. To me it was a great mesh of different sci-fi tropes with an okay plot and awesome characters. I got what I expected, Shepard sacrificed to end a cycle and bring some kind of resolution, closure for the characters, and a feel good ending about how anything might be possible out there. I'd be really disappointed in the indoc theory as it would leave the war still unresolved and negate the sacrifice made in favor of what would essentially be a dream sequence.
Sure the glowing kid could've been handled better, the whole last sequence felt sloppier and rushed than most of the parts beforehand. But there's a lot of the overall plot that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The Prothean's developed a weapon that they couldn't complete in time that was only just found out about and the plans are on Mars, and for some reason the Reapers, despite indoctornating the Protheans, have no clue it exists or what the Catalyst might be until the Illusive Man tells them? Hell Shepard was dead for 2 years just to give an excuse for him/her to be working for Cerberus in the last game. Between the books and the games, for a newer space bound species Humans keep tripping over Reaper artifacts that no one believes exist over and over again.
There's a ton of nit picking that could be done, and will be done. To me it was a great mesh of different sci-fi tropes with an okay plot and awesome characters. I got what I expected, Shepard sacrificed to end a cycle and bring some kind of resolution, closure for the characters, and a feel good ending about how anything might be possible out there. I'd be really disappointed in the indoc theory as it would leave the war still unresolved and negate the sacrifice made in favor of what would essentially be a dream sequence.
I may have missed this, but why did you like the ending? Was it that you just enjoyed the game which was awesome and didn't care about the story so much or that you actually thought the ending made sense?
The reason I ask is there's a subtle difference.
If you don't really care about the story so much and the just cared about the gameplay, it makes sense. The game is good, it's fun, the multiplayer is actually a blast, and they spent a decent amount of time on it (though there was some signs of rush).
The story, though...that you can also say you liked or tolerated, but it's definitely one thing you can argue and say it's objectively bad based on things like little to no foreshadowing of the Catalyst, etc.
Following that, Mass Effect had prior been sold on the story, not necessarily the game play, so you arguing that the ending was fine (I think?) makes me wonder what your own thoughts are on the game.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Since Tali can die, presumably she just comes around as an outcast who chooses to help her people and they replace her role in the Admiralcy with someone else.
Actually, no you can't
So, either everyone who is displeased with the ending is unconscious, or we are living in Opposite World.
Subjectively, I had no problems with any of the ideas presented in the final moments, I just thought they were delivered clumsily.
j0hnny_385
Member
She's still with the fleet as an expert on Geth. But the admirals keep the fact that she is working with them a secret from the rest of the fleet.
heliosRAzi
Banned
So not much of a difference except you can't attain peace.
If you have the PC version, you can try the audio extractor.
It works pretty well, here's the dream tune for example.
http://minus.com/mbmjySXIYW/
And she probably wont be able to get her own house on Rannoch.
Oh. Wait. She'll be stuck on Earth or that unknown jungle planet while watching EDI & Joker have cyborg babies since all Mass Relays exploded anyway.
The ending has some merit. A lot of it is just obfuscated by terribleness.
For example, the Reapers are a consistent force that maintain their relevance and thematic consistency even in the "shock" ending which reveals their true purpose.
But then you find out that some god-child or "other" tells them what to do, and this revelation is out of left field with no supporting evidence from the story.
For example, the Reapers are a consistent force that maintain their relevance and thematic consistency even in the "shock" ending which reveals their true purpose.
But then you find out that some god-child or "other" tells them what to do, and this revelation is out of left field with no supporting evidence from the story.
UnluckyKate
Member
I thought Mordin was decent enough to use him throughout the whole of ME2 (along with Miranda). Incinerate with a bigger range was great against husks, unless my memory is failing and he had Overload, which I used on anyone with shields (which was pretty much everyone on Insanity). Plus his flavor dialogue was unbeatable. RIP best ME character ever
Mordin had Incinerate.
Miranda had overload (and warp)
it was my to go team.
Dr Stabbingworth
Member
I accidentally imported my ME2 save with dead Tali and all her spots were replaced by Admiral Raan. Ugh
I love this and would play this game.
Of course, ME3 and TVH's goals are wildly different - Bioware HAD to make act 3 seem hopeless because it depicted the end of all things; Nimoy wanted to make a nonviolent Star Trek movie, which is fucking astonishing. Furthermore, Nimoy felt that movie three (IV is the end of a three-part trilogy) earned some lightheartedness after the previous two movies.
Mass Effect, with where that series was going, couldn't really have a light-hearted third entry. Despite that though, Mass Effect 3 might be the most humorous entry in the series (2 comes very close).
Only if you subscribe to the belief that there are no rules for storytelling.
Does she join you in the missions where Tali is necessary too?
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Eww.
Yeah, that's true. I don't think they needed to be light in order to have a proper non-exposition heavy ending though. I've said that I would have been happy if the game ended with Shepard dying next to Anderson as she watches Earth "above" (below?) her.
The indoctrination theory is basically, "nothing makes sense so therefore it has to be a dream" There's some fairly loose connections, but that's all it really amounts to.
Imagining this made me laugh pretty hard.
Yup that's what happened in my game. The Quarians brought in Tali as an expert saying that they're end her exile if she helps them defeat the Geth.
Felix Lighter
Member
firehawk12
Subete no aware
At least that would have saved us from Star Trek V!
Here's one blog that's anti-indoctrination theory.
https://iamrodyle.wordpress.com/201...e-indoctrination-theory-with-a-fiery-passion/
https://iamrodyle.wordpress.com/201...e-indoctrination-theory-with-a-fiery-passion/
Blue Ninja
Member
Rules are subjective.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Yep, I saw that. To be honest, I don't even need the extra stuff after Shepard dying. It doesn't matter what happens - we can just imagine that the Earth is saved somehow.
Should've been Admiral Xen. Would've been awesome if she became a squad member if Tali bit the dust in ME2.
Blue Ninja
Member
Well, glad to hear my vid's not going unnoticed, at least. :lol
WiiredShawn
Member
The problem is that there is nothing to be gained from thinking about an artistic product in a "mind-independent" context. Art means nothing without minds. So no, "true" objectivity (if such a thing is actually possible; citing a philosophical consensus on the notion is too steeped in irony to be definitive, I'd argue) is really not possible, here. But you can look at the story in a narrative framework and decide how well the story conforms to standards of pacing and coordination that generally result in satisfying conclusions.
It's been established, by multiple writers, that Mass Effect 3 poorly handles the pacing and coordination of the ending and the ideas contained therein. You admit yourself that it was "delivered clumsily," which means that it was bad. And whether or not the ideas themselves bother you is irrelevant to the fact that elements of the end directly contradict the lore and events from all three games, particularly the most recent ones. Even if the ideas were relevant in the game's framework, they are not, as you alluded, introduced or resolved in a way that gives them real impact.
Also, this isn't particularly productive. It's basically a reductionist argument that implies "subjective = immediately discredited," which is a slippery slope toward nihilism. You can't argue that "Bioware just handled the ending clumsily" and then say that "rules are subjective" because then the argument follows that Bioware doesn't have to follow any rules and thus cannot be held accountable - therefore, their ending can't even be "clumsy" because that assumes a certain arrangement should have been followed.
Of course rules are subjective, but certain frameworks, particularly for narratives, have been built upon for thousands of years, and seem to appeal because of how our brains process information. Bioware is evidently working deeply in narrative traditions that are as old as ancient Greece, and that sets up expectations. People can deal with disrupted expectations, but it has to be orchestrated carefully. Nothing about the ending is handled carefully. Therefore, in the framework that most of us interpret stories, the ending is bad. Whether the ideas have merit is irrelevant because they are poorly implemented and not even fully realized. We could debate the choices if there were actual consequences, and there are none.
So in any useful sense of "objectivity," the ending is objectively flawed in the execution of its ideologies. Right now, it's only a matter of whether that execution disturbs you - and the more you think about the implications, the more people are disturbed. That's been a clear trend.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I know people hate the "you could have been a great mom" thing, but I'd be happy if the credits rolled after a few seconds after this speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDWpd9nCKws
I love this scene enough to make an avatar out of it anyway. lol
I could not have had another woman with Morrigan's voice actress in my squad. She sounds literally like Morrigan in a Quarian suit.