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[spekkeh]

Exploration in ME1 is by far the best, even in main missions only, each environment was given time you were allowed to look around a bit, some places had no or little combat.
ME2 on wards you pretty much turn up as shit has already gone down, meaning one or two people to talk to and no substantial side tasks.

Eh? ME2 had actual non-shooting missions, ME1 didn't. The diversity of gameplay was much higher in ME2, also than in ME3 sadly, wish there would've been more non-shooting missions.

 

[Myomoto]

If you're a game trying to create some kind of scope such as that of a vast galaxy, then yes, linear is very bad.

What kind of scope specifically? You can easily show off large locales while following a linear path through them, something which has been the case for all 'quest hubs' in ME.

Thematically, would it really make sense to zip around the galaxy to hang out with random dudes when you're in the middle of a war? To that degree, ME3 is even too open in some cases.

 

[Grisby]

Ha ha, I didn't know Tali and Garrus got together at the end.

"Your're so mean...and I like that."

 

[Prologue]

Cute

 

[EatChildren]

Thank you.

They are RPG games, period. If you like them or not is a different matter entirely.

For what it's worth, I'm not really defending the notion that Mass Effect is the bastion of role playing . I don't really consider the franchise anything more than an action RPG: a hybrid of the two formulas, each stripped down, some parts quite significantly. I'm also not happy with everything ME3 did, let alone the past two games, and share some of Confidence Man's (and others) issues (eg: I miss more open, subquesty mission design).

But I don't subscribe to his shtick, which got old long ago.

 

[HK-47]

Also ME1 was the last time I remember player skills actually having any non combat role. I remember I'd always try to bring a tech expert with me in 1.

 

[Rebel Leader]

http://social.bioware.com/uploads_group/2000/1044/34300.jpg[/IM G]
Cute[/QUOTE]

Not human so you can't have any attachment to it

 

[EatChildren]

Also ME1 was the last time I remember player skills actually have any non combat role.

Yeah, and they were shitly tied into the also shitty loot drop system.

 

[Rapstah]

Eh? ME2 had actual non-shooting missions, ME1 didn't. The diversity of gameplay was much higher in ME2, also than in ME3 sadly, wish there would've been more non-shooting missions.

ME1 had exploration missions, and as a subcategory, collection missions and that monkey tagging mission on that one planet.

 

[HK-47]

Yeah, and they were shitly tied into the also shitty loot drop system.

Damn guess they better give up on that shitty role playing stuff. People didnt like how we did it so lets take the ball and go home.

 

[def sim]

I'm running under the assumption that they did a worse job on them, so they didnt put enough focus on them. Also there is a mark difference in dialogue options between 1 and 3. 3 completely removed the middle neutral option, rarely used the left side of the wheel for more than one continue the conversation option and even the paragon/renegade choices were severely cut down. Also Mass Effect as a series and as an RPG benefits a lot from mood and setting. Better atmosphere helps this. Also i'll take the shitty exploration and pretty skyboxes over the alternative shitty scanning a global or running away from inept reaper on the galaxy map. Bioware made the stupid choice of thinking the criticism of the mako sections was a problem witht he concept itself, rather than it not being a very polished or though out idea. I expected them to improve it like they improved combat and biotic/tech gameplay.

The first game had the advantage of being a new world; many of the dialog choices presented were merely exposition. Exposition for days. Three was the climax and falling action of the trilogy, where the world is fully established and decisions needed an assertive answer. What middle option did you want? Most choices couldn't be answered with, "welp I'm going to sit on the fence for this one."

As I said, Mako exploration is conceptually amazing. Its failing has more to do with hardware constraints and the fact that its scope is a lot larger than people imagine. Improving on that aspect isn't simply pushing up some slider; it would require the creations of multiple worlds with significant content in them. I can't see that being possible without dropping the console versions. It wasn't realistic to me and dropping it altogether made sense.

Also I noticed you didnt touch the point I made about plot and pacing. Also ME1 being a better rpg only has to do with things they decided to dumb down, remove or never improve upon. It doesnt have to do with ME being a bastion of RPGs.

I didn't touch on those along with the sentences I didn't highlight in the previous quote because none of them make an RPG. My argument was that ME1 isn't any more of an RPG than the other two, but it seems the reason you consider it are over superficial, ineffectual points in relation to my assertion. All you are telling me is you liked ME1 better than the other games.

to clarify: atmosphere, pacing, and music aren't exclusive to the genre.

 

[EatChildren]

Damn guess they better give up on that shitty role playing stuff. People didnt like how we did it so lets take the ball and go home.

Works for me. Got some good stuff out of it!

 

[Derrick01]

ME1 had exploration missions, and as a subcategory, collection missions and that monkey tagging mission on that one planet.

I've never been able to do that monkey mission. Every time I pick up the thing from the monkey my quest log never updates, it still says need to find the ____.

Pretty annoying but since it's happened to me in both 360 and PC versions I'm pretty sure the problem is me.

 

[BigTnaples]

For what it's worth, I'm not really defending the notion that Mass Effect is the bastion of role playing . I don't really consider the franchise anything more than an action RPG: a hybrid of the two formulas, each stripped down, some parts quite significantly. I'm also not happy with everything ME3 did, let alone the past two games, and share some of Confidence Man's (and others) issues (eg: I miss more open, subquesty mission design).

But I don't subscribe to his shtick, which got old long ago.

I agree with most of that as well.

ME has always been an action RPG, always, from day 0.

It never tried to be an in depth RPG like say Morrowind or the Witcher.

It has always aimed to take what made Kotor great, but give it more of the smoothness of gameplay that a TPS has. (Read the previews and dev quotes leading up to ME1 for confirmation of this)

That does not mean that you can lable the games "like CoD" or "Just a TPS" though.

Sure the games have many faults, but they are still (action) RPGs.

 

[HK-47]

The first game had the advantage of being a new world; many of the dialog choices presented were merely exposition. Exposition for days. Three was the climax and falling action of the trilogy, where the world is fully established and decisions needed an assertive answer. What middle option did you want? Most choices couldn't be answered with, "welp I'm going to sit on the fence for this one."

A failing of Bioware writing and the need for a dual mortality system. Other games use the middle option perfectly. Hell other games didnt just have three options. Mass Effect 3 only had 2.

 

[Red Blaster]

Works for me. Got some good stuff out of it!

Lowered Expectations™

 

[HK-47]

Works for me. Got some good stuff out of it!

I know. Then you got shat on. Hooray, awesome.

 

[HK-47]

I agree with most of that as well.

ME has always been an action RPG, always, from day 0.

It never tried to be an in depth RPG like say Morrowind or the Witcher.

It has always aimed to take what made Kotor great, but give it more of the smoothness of gameplay that a TPS has. (Read the previews and dev quotes leading up to ME1 for confirmation of this)

That does not mean that you can lable the games "like CoD" or "Just a TPS" though.

Sure the games have many faults, but they are still (action) RPGs.

The Witcher is an action rpg. Also you still spend a vast amount of time in Mass Effect games in conversations. Yet that part gets worse and worse. At least ME2 supplemented it with characters. ME3 supplemented it with stuff set up and done well in the other games and sort of fucked around with the new stuff until it imploded in the final lap.

 

[EatChildren]

Lowered Expectations™

Nah. Shaped. I know what I expect and want from Mass Effect and for most part I got it. It would be nice to get Mass Effect: Torment but, you know, it would be nice to get Anything: Torment. Or Anything: Of Steamwork & Magick Obscura.

But I'll seek those experiences where I expect to get those experiences, and adjust my disappointment appropriately when they don't deliver.

Asking me to expect a rich, life fulfilling role playing experience from Mass Effect is asking me to expect the same thing from Flight Simulator. I'm not looking for it here.

I know. Then you got shat on. Hooray, awesome.

I got shat on by a anus of an ending, something everybody did, regardless of how much they were or weren't enjoying the game.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

That was one of the more well done moments in the game, and really any game this gen imo.


The hospital scene was actually moving, a pretty good feat considering the graphical limitations.

It's guys like you that allow Bioware to set the bar so low.

That scene was blown by typical Bioware laziness. Failure to put Thane in any other outfit beyond the one he wore in Mass Effect 2. Shepherd walks over to Thane and motions as if to close Thane's eyes upon passing and yet they show a different camera angle and Thane's eyes are still open.

It was a clever scene with the prayer for Shepherd but in the end, Bioware giveth and Bioware taketh away.

 

[riceandbeans]

Is it possible to get the best endings in the game without doing multiplayer? Bioware has said it's doable, but I've read a lot of posts where people have failed since you need over 10,000 points.

 

[Myomoto]

It's guys like you that allow Bioware to set the bar so low.

That scene was blown by typical Bioware laziness. Failure to put Thane in any other outfit beyond the one he wore in Mass Effect 2. Shepherd walks over to Thane and motions as if to close Thane's eyes upon passing and yet they show a different camera angle and Thane's eyes are still open.

It was a clever scene with the prayer for Shepherd but in the end, Bioware giveth and Bioware taketh away.

Don't forget that Thane's eyes are moving after he's dead. To be fair I'm not an expert on drell physiology, but I'd wager their eyes would stop moving when they die.

But, despite this, the scene still felt very touching (for me at least).

 

[EatChildren]

Is it possible to get the best endings in the game without doing multiplayer? Bioware has said it's doable, but I've read a lot of posts where people have failed since you need over 10,000 points.

There's a bonus end-credits sequence if you pick a specific ending (as in, you make a specific final game choice) if your effective military strength is a value higher than what playing solo can actually give.

There is no 'best ending', and even if you have the points, if you don't pick the specific ending you will not see the sequence.

The sequence itself is just a stupid tease that serves no purpose other than "lots of speculation from everyone".

 

[HK-47]

Nah. Shaped. I know what I expect and want from Mass Effect and for most part I got it. It would be nice to get Mass Effect: Torment but, you know, it would be nice to get Anything: Torment. Or Anything: Of Steamwork & Magick Obscura.

But I'll seek those experiences where I expect to get those experiences, and adjust my disappointment appropriately when they don't deliver.

Asking me to expect a rich, life fulfilling role playing experience from Mass Effect is asking me to expect the same thing from Flight Simulator. I'm not looking for it here.



I got shat on by a anus of an ending, something everybody did, regardless of how much they were or weren't enjoying the game.

Assuming I wanted Mass Effect to be Torment or Arcanum is your first mistake ( I wouldnt mind). And second, its still lower expectations. They dont fix. They remove.

And they tell an unsatisfying main story after a promising start. Both 2 and 3 have this problem, regardless of whether the characters in 2 make up for it. But I guess thats just asking too much from poor Bioware. To do the thing everyone slobs their knob about: tell a story.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

Don't forget that Thane's eyes are moving after he's dead. To be fair I'm not an expert on drell physiology, but I'd wager their eyes would stop moving when they die.

But, despite this, the scene still felt very touching (for me at least).

The fact that it WAS touching is why it irritated me so much that they half-assed pretty much everything else in the scene.

 

[hateradio]

Lowered Expectations™

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xLsRI7-hBs

The fact that it WAS touching is why it irritated me so much that they half-assed pretty much everything else in the scene.

He was still wearing his normal clothes. They didn't bother to do a robed or topless model like they did for humans.

 

[BigTnaples]

It's guys like you that allow Bioware to set the bar so low.

That scene was blown by typical Bioware laziness. Failure to put Thane in any other outfit beyond the one he wore in Mass Effect 2. Shepherd walks over to Thane and motions as if to close Thane's eyes upon passing and yet they show a different camera angle and Thane's eyes are still open.

It was a clever scene with the prayer for Shepherd but in the end, Bioware giveth and Bioware taketh away.

Gee, thanks.

Those are minor graphical gripes which I mentioned. And he had a different outfit than the one he wore in MY Mass Effect 2 game..

I thought the idea of the scene, the camera angles and dialogue were well done, and if remade with better graphical attention to detail it would be fantatic.

 

[HK-47]

Don't forget that Thane's eyes are moving after he's dead. To be fair I'm not an expert on drell physiology, but I'd wager their eyes would stop moving when they die.

But, despite this, the scene still felt very touching (for me at least).

Its a weird problem with something. I dunno. Thane isnt the only one who does it. You think it would be more work and pretty obvious if he kept animating. Also is it just me does Miranda's outfit not have the Cerberus logo despite being the exact same outfit otherwise?

 

[Moaradin]

It's guys like you that allow Bioware to set the bar so low.

That scene was blown by typical Bioware laziness. Failure to put Thane in any other outfit beyond the one he wore in Mass Effect 2. Shepherd walks over to Thane and motions as if to close Thane's eyes upon passing and yet they show a different camera angle and Thane's eyes are still open.

It was a clever scene with the prayer for Shepherd but in the end, Bioware giveth and Bioware taketh away.

Damn son, it's a video game. If you picked at minor details like that for any game you played, you wouldn't be happy with any of them.

If it makes you feel better, Ashley wasn't in her normal armor when she was in the hospital.

 

[Rapstah]

Is it possible to get the best endings in the game without doing multiplayer? Bioware has said it's doable, but I've read a lot of posts where people have failed since you need over 10,000 points.

I think by Bioware's definition, the best ending is Synthesis, which unlocks at 3000 EMS, and they probably do not count the iPad game as multiplayer either. Strictly, the best possible EMS one can possibly end the game with at 50% readiness, best choices for that purpose across the entire trilogy, all DLC played, can't possibly reach 5000. 4000 maybe, but hardly that.

 

[DTKT]

Giving my waifu Tali an invisible rock was also pretty great.

 

[EatChildren]

Assuming I wanted Mass Effect to be Torment or Arcanum is your first mistake. And second, its still lower expectations. They dont fix. They remove.

And they tell an unsatisfying main story after a promising start. Both 2 and 3 have this problem, regardless of whether the characters in 2 make up for it. But I guess thats just asking too much from poor Bioware. To do the thing everyone slobs their knob about: tell a story.

I'm not assuming anything, simply pointing out I don't give a shit about your expectations because they don't fill mine. It's not 'lower expectations', it's different expectations. EG: I'm happy they stripped the ever loving shit out of Mass Effect's trainwreck loot system, because it was fucking atrocious game design and the alternative, what we got, is something I feel is much, much better.

"Oh wouldn't it be awesome though if we got just as much loot and they fixed it instead?" Sure would, but I don't consider it a necessity, nor the only direction for which the game should be designed.

Besides, there's a whole bunch of shit I don't like about ME3 and feel the past games did better. I've been one of the most vocal champions of the Mako and ground exploration. I mourned its absence in ME2 and I was disappointed again when ME3 continued that trend.

But here I am, happy with 90% of what I got, because what I got was good fun and ticked most of the boxes of what I expected and hoped to get from the experience. Not because of lowered expectations, but because my expectations differed from yours.

 

[Myomoto]

...Also is it just me does Miranda's outfit not have the Cerberus logo despite being the exact same outfit otherwise?

Same thing with Jacob's outfit.

Damn son, it's a video game. If you picked at minor details like that for any game you played, you wouldn't be happy with any of them.

If it makes you feel better, Ashley wasn't in her normal armor when she was in the hospital.

No, she was wearing some weird top with inflatable breasts (seriously, she seems to have gained ~2 cup sizes in ME3), while hovering just slightly above the bed. Ugh.

 

[def sim]

A failing of Bioware writing and the need for a dual mortality system. Other games use the middle option perfectly. Hell other games didnt just have three options. Mass Effect 3 only had 2.

The morality system has always been flawed and it is one of their biggest failings. Bioware choices are limited and have been for a long time. Ignoring the comment on 3, I mostly agree with this. We all jumped in for the ride anyway.

I enjoy their cheesy, pandering story lines and fully know they're guilty pleasures that appeal to our nerd senses.

 

[hateradio]

I think by Bioware's definition, the best ending is Synthesis, which unlocks at 3000 EMS, and they probably do not count the iPad game as multiplayer either. Strictly, the best possible EMS one can possibly end the game with at 50% readiness, best choices for that purpose across the entire trilogy, all DLC played, can't possibly reach 5000. 4000 maybe, but hardly that.

I think someone calculated the game having about 3500 EMS. That would mean that DLC has to have 1500 EMS, that's almost half of what the game offers.

Hopefully they just patch it and add a few more points per item.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

Damn son, it's a video game. If you picked at minor details like that for any game you played, you wouldn't be happy with any of them.

Being a video game is no excuse to be satisfied with what is clearly an example of rushed, careless work.

Most games have minor details here and there but in Mass Effect 3, it's not just "here or there". It shows in a number of ways so by the time I got to his death...yeah, the best writing in the world won't make up for the fact that even the developers didn't have enough respect for the scene to make it bulletproof.

"Good enough.", was Bioware's mission statement for Mass Effect 3.

If it makes you feel better, Ashley wasn't in her normal armor when she was in the hospital.

Yeah...no.

Also is it just me does Miranda's outfit not have the Cerberus logo despite being the exact same outfit otherwise?

In the time between the Suicide Mission and the events of Mass Effect 3, Miranda was unable to find an alternative skin tight outfit to wear. (despite there being alternate costume DLC for Mass Effect 2) While hiding from The Illusive Man and Cerberus, she figured it was best to simply remove the Cerberus insignia but keep the outfit she wore when working for The Illusive Man. Something genius like "hiding in plain sight" or something. I'm not a genetically engineered space-spy so I'm assuming her decision was a good one.

Jacob also thought it was best to wear his Cerberus uniform with the insignia removed.

 

[HK-47]

Same thing with Jacob's outfit.

lol what a minor detail to bother with given the other more obvious ones or the fact that they are still wearing the same clothes.

 

[shinobi602]

I just thought of something else. In Mass Effect 1 we learn:

"You develop along the paths we desire"

Spacekid says that organics will always eventually reach a singularity point to where their creations (synthetics) will rebel against them and destroy all organics. I wonder...

Why do the Reapers (and thus spacebrat) allow all those species to discover the Citadel and the mass relays then? It seems to go directly against their thinking. Allowing them to find the Citadel and mass relays jumpstarts their technology hundreds of years and drives them down that "destructive" path even faster...so in hindsight, they're in effect hastening their doom?

 

[Confidence Man]

It has several side missions, many tied into story quests, that can be completed in any order on the condition story checkpoints are not met.

It has a player levelling system tied to classes and powers, with minor power branches, in conjunction with a weapon levelling system.

It has a minimal research/upgrade system separate to the above.

It has interactive conversations with characters, and varied plotline outcome.

The idea that Mass Effect 3 has RPG element "about as much as a Call of Duty game" is the usual grumpy, cynical ranty bullshit I've come to expect from you.

Bioware has called CoD an RPG, and they've gone out of their way to cull any element that may be appear redundant to those players. It has levels, unlock new weapons and customize them, skills in the form of a perk systm, outfits to swap. In both games every choice with respect to your character's development comes down to how you want to your guy/gal to kill the enemy.

 

[HK-47]

The morality system has always been flawed and it is one of their biggest failings. Bioware choices are limited and have been for a long time. Ignoring the comment on 3, I mostly agree with this. We all jumped in for the ride anyway.

I enjoy their cheesy, pandering story lines and fully know they're guilty pleasures that appeal to our nerd senses.

Well its kind of annoying when they then suddenly have well written and emotional scenes only to go back to stupid cheese. I wish they'd pick something and go with it.

I dont think ME is good at cheese. At all.

 

[hateradio]

Also, can we agree that the Cerberus robes were much cooler than the Alliance uniform? I felt like Shep was wearing a garter belt whenever he wore it.

 

[EatChildren]

Bioware has called CoD an RPG, and they've gone out of their way to cull any element that may be appear redundant to those players. It has levels, unlock new weapons and customize them, skills in the form of a perk systm, outfits to swap. In both games every choice with respect to your character's development comes down to how you want to your guy/gal to kill the enemy.

BioWare calling Call of Duty an RPG is irrelevant to what Mass Effect 3 actually is relative to Call of Duty. Your examples stand where they stand, as you ignore all of my others.

 

[Moaradin]

I liked the Alliance casual outfit.

 

[Gestahl]

I just thought of something else. In Mass Effect 1 we learn:



Spacekid says that organics will always eventually reach a singularity point to where their creations (synthetics) will rebel against them and destroy all organics. I wonder...

Why do the Reapers (and thus spacebrat) allow all those species to discover the Citadel and the mass relays then? It seems to go directly against their thinking. Allowing them to find the Citadel and mass relays jumpstarts their technology hundreds of years and drives them down that "destructive" path even faster...so in hindsight, they're in effect hastening their doom?

It's because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are idiots. Every part of the ending falls apart with any amount of critical thinking. That's the thing; there would not be nearly as much of an outcry about the ending and other extents the main story if thinking about it didn't hurt your brain. I feel myself losing intelligence when I try to reconcile shit like the ending, the crucible, Cerberus, whatever, with everything I know Mass Effect

 

[Myomoto]

"Good enough.", was Bioware's mission statement for Mass Effect 3.

18 month dev cycle. Gotta squeeze out them bi-annual sequels to make Papa EA some monneh.

 

[HK-47]

BioWare calling Call of Duty an RPG is irrelevant to what Mass Effect 3 actually is relative to Call of Duty. Your examples stand where they stand, as you ignore all of my others.

Well he is right that the only substantial expansion and improvement of choice is in how you kill bad guys. 2 really made the classes unique combat wise and added stuff like tech bursts, biotic combos and such. There really isnt something like that for conversations or exploration (especially after the 360 forced 2 to split its open ended recruiting into two sections and put Legion on the Reaper IFF mission.)

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I think by Bioware's definition, the best ending is Synthesis, which unlocks at 3000 EMS, and they probably do not count the iPad game as multiplayer either. Strictly, the best possible EMS one can possibly end the game with at 50% readiness, best choices for that purpose across the entire trilogy, all DLC played, can't possibly reach 5000. 4000 maybe, but hardly that.

It's been a week or so but I believe I was super-close to 5K EMS. I was 98% galactic readiness and was in the mid 4K range after the galactic readiness multiplier.

I wasn't super thorough with all of the quests either so I think it's possible to have/reach 5K.

I also had the Javik DLC.

 

[Papercuts]

It's been a week or so but I believe I was super-close to 5K EMS. I was 98% galactic readiness and was in the mid 4K range after the galactic readiness multiplier.

I wasn't super thorough with all of the quests either so I think it's possible to have/reach 5K.

I also had the Javik DLC.

I had 7100 with 100%. I don't think I could possibly get much more, so with 50% I doubt 4K can be reached.

 

[EatChildren]

Well he is right that the only substantial expansion and improvement of choice is in how you kill bad guys. 2 really made the classes unique combat wise and added stuff like tech bursts, biotic combos and such. There really isnt something like that for conversations or exploration (especially after the 360 forced 2 to split its open ended recruiting into two sections and put Legion on the Reaper IFF mission.)

I know this, and the lack of exploration is something I've really missed, and the one big thing I would have done differently if this were my game. Funnelling skills into combat is not something I'm concerned about, as ME1 did the alternative so poorly that I don't feel non-combat skills are essential to the Mass Effect experience I seek, nor necessary for the areas of ME2/ME3 that I feel were neglected (and in some cases removed outright).

 

[BigTnaples]

I just thought of something else. In Mass Effect 1 we learn:



Spacekid says that organics will always eventually reach a singularity point to where their creations (synthetics) will rebel against them and destroy all organics. I wonder...

Why do the Reapers (and thus spacebrat) allow all those species to discover the Citadel and the mass relays then? It seems to go directly against their thinking. Allowing them to find the Citadel and mass relays jumpstarts their technology hundreds of years and drives them down that "destructive" path even faster...so in hindsight, they're in effect hastening their doom?

This is likely a side effect of the ending being different from what was originally planned.


However, us developing along the path that the Reapers desire is still somewhat useful to them. If I lock you in a room with 12 doors, each with a puzzle to unlock, and unkown prizes or perils behind them, but instead, afer 8 hours I open the door I want you to go through, you wont find your own way, you will find my way.


If we had not found the Relays, and developed in the exact way the Reapers desired, who is to say we may not have invented something ourselves, something different, or even better than the relays. That is an amount of chaos and unpredictability that would make something like a harvesting cycle needlessly more difficult for the Reapers.


Without the relays guiding our path, we could be anywhere in the Galaxy(which as we know, is huge). With the Relays, all civilizations are within reach of the Relays, and basically plotted on the map for the reapers to harvest. Hell, even with this path it still takes hundereds of years for them to route out and find everyone for harvest.